Age 60 informal poll

[Gofish]

I'm punching out at 55 and moving to the Dominican Rebublic to live on a boat and fish everyday. Work is for losers.

 

[FoxHunter]

I know that, ICAO also includes Canada and some other countries outside Europe. Great. You still haven't answered the question---Why would ICAO restrict the number of age 60 or over pilots in a 2 man cockpit? Why? They know and we all know the reason, they don't want two old farts falling asleep at the same time and the plane running out of gas 400 miles past their intended destination. No joke. Give me a reason for that please. Why would the JAA or ICAO (they have the rule also) do that? And, please tell me the real reason for the change in age. Could it be the lack of pilots in Europe due to rapid expansion of LCCs? I think I am right.... I know I am. Please rebutt those facts. Sure, you can fly a citation until you are 99. That is great. Did you read about the 90 year old who killed 10 people and injured 20 with his car in Santa Monica? He did that on his own. Could he get a commercial bus driving license at that age too? No, probably not. There are a lot of rules that really need to be examined for SAFETY reasons. There may be some very fit 60 year olds out there, but the VAST majority need to retire, maybe before 60.

People like to say things have changed due to the lack of pensions. Well, when Mars attacks or the stock market crashes, at that point, we should probably go to 68 years old.....and then maybe 70..... Sorry, everyone needs to invest early on and try to stay with one wife. In the hills of Kentucky you can also marry your sister. Well, if they do it, everyone should be able to, right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Some states wanted no age limit, some wanted to keep age 60, the majority wanted age 65. You will find S.65 and HR. 65 in their original form have no such resrtriction. In fact they both raise the age to 66 or 67 depending on your DOB. ICAO like the U.S. Senate decided to adopt a more consrvative requirement in order to get agreement on the age change. It makes it all sound better to the general public, eye wash. The FAA just made it a requirement to be in contact with ATC to fly up the East River in NYC, like that would have avoided the recent tragic accident up there.

BTW Canada has no age restriction.

ICAO is all the countries of the United Nations. Only four nations voted against the change. USA, France, Pakistan, Columbia. Since Pakistan is the big partner in the "War on Terror", and Columbia is a partner in the "War on Drugs" and both receive a great deal of cash and military help from the USA it is no suprising that they would vote with their partner on an minor issue.

 

[Klako]

I'm punching out at 55 and moving to the Dominican Rebublic to live on a boat and fish everyday. Work is for losers.

Get Out Now!

If you don not love your airline job, you have no business being where you are now.

 

[Klako]

John Prater, new ALPA President

Release #06.060
October 18, 2006

ALPA Delegates Elect Capt. John Prater as President
Pilots send clear message to industry of newly aggressive stance

LAS VEGAS, NV ---- The Board of Directors of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) today elected Captain John Prater, a B-767 Continental Airlines pilot, to serve as the 8th president in the union’s history.

This decision sends a strong signal to the airline industry that ALPA pilots are prepared to move into a new period of strong, concerted action to rebuild their profession.

“The airline pilots of the United States and Canada today sent a clear message that their union desires to return to its roots of aggressive bargaining, strict contract enforcement, tenacious organizing, and pilot action to restore our contracts and our profession,” Prater said in the wake of his election.

“After five years of concessionary bargaining, lost pensions, and battered work rules, our pilots are primed to take offensive action,” Prater continued. “This may mean a return to the hard-nosed tactics of earlier years and a grassroots mobilization of each and every one of our members.”

While the concessionary era in the airline industry is coming to a close, several airlines remain prisoners of the “1113 process” (whereby management can have labor contracts annulled by the bankruptcy court), and others are stalled in negotiations with their managements. This stagnation takes place while load factors are high, fuel prices are lower, and profits are rising.

“The airline industry survived because of the concessions pilots and other workers made,” Prater said. “Now it is time for us to see a tangible return on these bitter investments.”

Prater is a 28-year veteran of ALPA, having served extensively at all levels. From strike committee chairman to master chairman and a vice chairman of the international alliance, Wings Alliance (now part of the Skyteam Alliance), Prater brings a wealth of experience. His background includes union fights against notorious airline management figures Frank Lorenzo, Carl Icahn, and Dick Ferris.

A graduate of St. Louis University with a bachelor’s degree in meteorology, Capt. Prater is based in Newark, NJ. He is a resident of Edwardsville, IL with his wife Michele and daughter Alexandra. He is the son of John and Esther Prater of Collinsville, IL.

The election was a contest between Prater and current ALPA President, Capt. Duane E. Woerth. Of the 47,968 votes cast, 24,444 went to Prater and 23,524 to Woerth. The new president will take office in January 2007.

Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilot union, representing 61,000 pilots at 40 airlines in the United States and Canada. Visit the ALPA website at www.alpa.org.
----

Where is John Prater on the "Age 60 Rule" issue?

 

[General Lee]

Prater has a lot ot gain by NOT agreeing to or supporting the Age 65 rule, since CAL will be losing close to 1000 pilots next year to age 60. I think and hope he will "sit on the issue" for a couple more years. I think it is really dangerous, and ICAO coming out with a rule (or a guidline) to not have 2 age 60 or higher pilots flying together shows the weakness in that suggestion. Why would they not want two older pilots flying together? Sounds like a safety issue, but since they are short in Europe and other areas of the world due to LCC expansion, they are saddly overlooking the obvious. OLD pilots are dangerous, especially when grouped together.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Klako]

OLD pilots are dangerous, especially when grouped together.

You are a bigot!

Get out of of the airline industry, there is no room for the likes of you.

 

[g-code]

Im for it. Yeah everyone knew the rules, but the rules also said they would have a pension too. This kind of pisses me off because on this forum there is a sense of self-rightousness and many here preach about "protecting the brotherhood" and "helping the profession", and then you go vote to kick the older guys under the bus because you want the upgrade. I think its low, and you guys do it to advance your career because you won't be labeled as scabs, and I'll be willing to bet after you land your job at UA, AA, FDX, UPS, CO, DL, etc. and you are getting into your mid 50s, you will be crying for it too.

 

[General Lee]

Im for it. Yeah everyone knew the rules, but the rules also said they would have a pension too. This kind of pisses me off because on this forum there is a sense of self-rightousness and many here preach about "protecting the brotherhood" and "helping the profession", and then you go vote to kick the older guys under the bus because you want the upgrade. I think its low, and you guys do it to advance your career because you won't be labeled as scabs, and I'll be willing to bet after you land your job at UA, AA, FDX, UPS, CO, DL, etc. and you are getting into your mid 50s, you will be crying for it too.

So, when Mars attacks or the next stock market tumbles, we should go to 68? Where will it stop? We all knew the rules going into this, and do you think the guys in their late 50s now would have voted for this 10 years ago? Heck NO. Sorry, but they are out of luck. And what rules said we would automatically get a pension? Not every airline has a pension. What if you went to work for ASA 20 years ago and stayed with them the whole time? Do they have a pension? It is called a 401K. Should that 401K be guaranteed also? By who? It's all a gamble.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You are a bigot!

Get out of of the airline industry, there is no room for the likes of you.

Are you in favor of over age 60 cops and firemen too? Do you want one of those old firemen carrying you down a burning stairwell? You don't? Bigot!

And, I love this industry and have 19 more years to go to age 60. Goodnight dork.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

John Prater on age 60

Age 60:


The debate continues. The Age 60 rule and our policy serve as a
contentious issue among older, younger, senior, junior and furloughed
Union members. The debate detracts from our solidarity to fight for
safety, legislative and contract efforts. For some members on both sides
of our policy, this is their current primary issue. Proposed
legislation, new ICAO standards, and FAA advisory panels are a dynamic
reality. Safety is often cited, yet conflicting studies permeate the
debate. ALPA pilots in Canada have the right to fly until 65. Currently
the ALPA First Vice President serves as the President of IFALPA with
most non U.S. pilots having the right to fly past age 60. Competing
interests among our members are based upon the economics of failed
retirement plans and wage concessions and lengthened careers versus the
economics of seniority upgrades. Complaints of age discrimination or
the individual desire to continue to fly as an Airline Pilot, conflict
with the desire to progress or be recalled. The issue is further
complicated by the fact the rule has been in place since 1959 and the
fact that we changed our policy from fighting the rule to supporting it
in 1980. Our members voiced concern over the hypocrisy of a policy that
creates disparate treatment for pilots of US airlines as well as ALPA
Officers serving beyond the mandatory retirement age for their members.






Our Association's policy is clear and directs the Officers to defend the
status quo for the age 60 rule. Let me be just as clear: If elected to
serve as your President, I will defend that policy until the Board of
Directors changes the policy. ALPA policy is a matter for you and our
members to determine whether it should be maintained, reversed or a
neutral position adopted.






A change to the age 60 rule will create potential ramifications to
pilots on issues that range from First Class medicals, size of PBGC
payments, Defined Benefit Pension Plans, to Insurance and LTD plans.
Members rightfully express concerns over the unknown aspects of Congress
and the FAA changing the rule. A change in the age 60 rule will provide
us with opportunities to address relevant contract provisions. While I
believe that my personal opinion on the issue is not germane to the
BOD's policy decision, many members have asked me my view. I believe
the basis of the safety foundation for ALPA's present policy has been
eroded and believe the ICAO standard should and will be adopted by the
FAA. It is our job to take advantage of any law or rule change and
ensure our members receive increased contractual and legislative
guarantees.


Help us Break the Status Quo in 2006.


In Solidarity,


John Prater


618-514-1986


[email protected]


www.JohnPrater2006.com <http://www.johnprater2006.com/>

 

[Flopgut]

Undaunted:

I am acquainted with John Prater, I have worked with John Prater, you sir are no John Prater!

You like one part of his message so you post it. Good for you. Here's the challenge: Follow his entire mandate! In fact, you could take a few pointers from him. You stand to get a double share of 777 Captain while many thousands of pilots have been rationed to zero. A close second to your support of an age change should be your support of help and improvements for those junior to you. You survey the entire industry from the top, you should have a worldview that includes legislative and regulatory enhancements for ALL pilots. Big picture issues, larger truths, etc. I have asked you for your thoughts on that many times. Instead, you want to talk about your birthday party! I'm going to support John fully, and I know full well it won't be all about me. You should be ready to do the same. Don't simply latch on to one issue that suits you and exclude the rest. Captain Prater is going to work to improve things for ALL of us. The 28 years of ALPA you are used to are over.

 

[Klako]

Are you in favor of over age 60 cops and firemen too? Do you want one of those old firemen carrying you down a burning stairwell?

Yes, absolutely, if they are physically capable. I know plenty of people over age 60 who are much more physically capable than most 30 year old people, including myself. I can still max the Army Physical Fitness test at age 59.

And, I love this industry and have 19 more years to go to age 60.

I would bet that when you are nearing your own 60th birthday, that you will eat those words. I am here to tell you and everyone else, that you should now, before it is too late, write to your Reps in Congress and your Union Reps. Tell them to support legislation now in Congress that extends the FAA’s age restriction from 60 to 65. You will thank yourself someday for that. Now may be the very last chance to change this curse on our industry which is the age 60 rule.

 

[g-code]

So, when Mars attacks or the next stock market tumbles, we should go to 68? Where will it stop? We all knew the rules going into this, and do you think the guys in their late 50s now would have voted for this 10 years ago? Heck NO. Sorry, but they are out of luck. And what rules said we would automatically get a pension? Not every airline has a pension. What if you went to work for ASA 20 years ago and stayed with them the whole time? Do they have a pension? It is called a 401K. Should that 401K be guaranteed also? By who? It's all a gamble.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I can see why everyone calls you an ass here.

That thing about knowing the rules is crap and you know it. Management changed the rules, so ALPA needs to as well.

Further, you cannot compare ASA to UA, DL, etc. Yes, some guys make careers there, and they deserve the option to fly 'till 65 as well.

I have a feeling you just want to get your hands on one of the 8 777s that DL has.

So tell me General, why SHOULDNT the age be changed to 65, besides the fact that the 'rules' are changed. Care to share with the class?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Undaunted:

You like one part of his message so you post it. Good for you. Here's the challenge: Follow his entire mandate! You stand to get a double share of 777 Captain while many thousands of pilots have been rationed to zero. A close second to your support of an age change should be your support of help and improvements for those junior to you. You survey the entire industry from the top, you should have a worldview that includes legislative and regulatory enhancements for ALL pilots. The 28 years of ALPA you are used to are over.

Flopgut: First off, I've been ALPA member for 37-years and I have an "Battle Star" pin proving it. And when ALPA had some leadership we made great advancements. That's why the election of John Prater gives me hope for the Association. No more "Woerthless."

Now lets talk about your post: There you go only thinking about yourself, a junior pilot (puke) and how tuff it is for you and your friends. Personally I'm sick of it. What about the guys who have turned 60 in the last five years. Where is your concern for them? If the law changes are you interested in that group? I know your answer and it's: NO. That's because from your post all you really care about is yourself and stealing some senior pilot’s livelihood.

Regarding John Prater: I have great confidence in him because he understands the pilot group is divided right down the middle, on the age 60 issue in particular. John Prater understands what many of us have been trying to tell you and your selfish friends for a long time on this Board.

"United we stand divided we fall" is something Woerthless and many of your friends just do not understand. Failure is the only result by your methods as is the current situation of disunity. But if you know John Prater as you say you do, you must know that your thoughts of advancement my deluding others will not work any longer. Now you may have to advance by the hard way.

 

[jbDC9]

Now lets talk about your post: There you go only thinking about yourself, a junior pilot (puke) and how tuff it is for you and your friends. Personally I'm sick of it. What about the guys who have turned 60 in the last five years. Where is your concern for them? If the law changes are you interested in that group? I know your answer and it's: NO. That's because from your post all you really care about is yourself and stealing some senior pilot’s livelihood.

Wow, for a senior puke you sure come across sounding like an arrogant ass with that statement. You and Klako are both idiots from the same mold, claiming the junior guys are stealing the senior pilot's livelihoods. What a freakin' joke. So, Mr. 59 yr old 777 Captain, how did you get to that fancy jet left seat you're in anyway? That's right, you stole it from another pilot who was senior to you! Didja ever stop and think about it like that? Probably not... perhaps you were born into that seat and never had to wait for the guys above you to retire so you could move up the list.

Idiot.

 

[slaquer5]

Do they have a pension? It is called a 401K. Should that 401K be guaranteed also? By who? It's all a gamble.

Bye Bye--General Lee

OK now I am confused you cant be that stupid.

 

[boeingdriver213]

You know, when I flew general aviation, the thing that made me love flying so much was the actual "brotherhood" that existed amongst aviation enthusiasts. It didn't matter what you flew, who you worked for or even whether you were just a pilot "wanna-be". We were all part of something that made every day at the airport something special. I still feel that way. The fantastic people I have had the pleasure to know, the great times I was able to share with so many people made the whole thing worth a lifetime of memories I will never forget. If ever a fellow pilot had problems, or God forbid one of our brethren was lost, we all pulled together in support of that pilot and his family. I have been flying for almost 30 years and to this day, I still see that in almost all the peolpe I have known whether general aviation, corporate or airline. The problems this industry has endured over the last several years was not the fault of any pilot, but the pilot was one of the most severly affected by events largely out of our control. General aviation airports are closing at an alarming rate, corporate flight departments are being dismantled, and airline careers which should have provided a good retirement for the pilots and their families were suddenly and totally decimated. I have watched senior pilots who were close to retirement suddenly have to sell houses, pull children out of college, look for work that wasn't easily found anywhere near home, if at all and have there whole lives turned upside down without any warning. These are the people that the age 60 ruled has so adversly affected. I can't believe we are so indifferent to the plight of any fellow aviator that we would "hang them out to dry" just to "get them out of your seat". Many of these guys don't want to keep working, they must work to support their family. I can't deny them that opportunity...

 

[General Lee]

Yes, absolutely, if they are physically capable. I know plenty of people over age 60 who are much more physically capable than most 30 year old people, including myself. I can still max the Army Physical Fitness test at age 59.




I would bet that when you are nearing your own 60th birthday, that you will eat those words. I am here to tell you and everyone else, that you should now, before it is too late, write to your Reps in Congress and your Union Reps. Tell them to support legislation now in Congress that extends the FAA’s age restriction from 60 to 65. You will thank yourself someday for that. Now may be the very last chance to change this curse on our industry which is the age 60 rule.

No Klako, I won't. You knew the rules, and I know the rules too. I am saving up for me and my wife, have plenty of investments, and plan to stay with my one wife. If you did not prepare, then that is unfortunate. And, I am sure that there are some really great 59 year olds or even guys in their 60s who can pass the Army Physical fitness test, but the majority cannot, and that means you go to Netjets when you retire, and they go to the golf course. Sorry. Safety cannot be sporatic.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I can see why everyone calls you an ass here.

That thing about knowing the rules is crap and you know it. Management changed the rules, so ALPA needs to as well.

Further, you cannot compare ASA to UA, DL, etc. Yes, some guys make careers there, and they deserve the option to fly 'till 65 as well.

I have a feeling you just want to get your hands on one of the 8 777s that DL has.

So tell me General, why SHOULDNT the age be changed to 65, besides the fact that the 'rules' are changed. Care to share with the class?

Management changed the rules? So, when Mars attacks, you will blame the martians? If they attack, should we raise the age to 66? Why can't you compare ASA to other airlines? Everyone makes a choice, but no one is safe from a broken promise, and that is what a pension is. Look at other industries like the auto industry to follow that line of promises. Does the Gov't have to guarantee 401Ks too?

Do I want to fly a 777 at DL. You bet. Do I want to do it flying into BOM late at night with someone who has lost his situational awareness and hearing (both not checked really in medicals---you and I know that to be true), NO WAY. If you want to change some more rules, how about marrying your sister. People do that in the hills of Kentuky, so maybe we should all do that.

And, I am an arse you say? Can't handle a debate? Why does ICAO want to limit (a guideline put out by them) the number of over age 60 pilots in each cockpit? Please answer that. Safety?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

OK now I am confused you cant be that stupid.

You are stupid. That was thrown in there to make a point. That point being that the pensions are just promises. Should we also expect our 401Ks to be guaranteed just like we thought our pensions would be? No. Got it yet?

Bye Bye--General Lee