Age 60 informal poll

[Falconjet]

I love your logic here. How much time, energy and resources did you put into pursuing your present job? I am guessing by your avatar you are at FEDEX so you have a secure position with tremendous growth ahead of you but are willing to give it up because you disagree with a law change.

Do you think before speaking or are you just plain stupid? Make sure you tell your kids when they are older how you gave up a pretty good gig at FEDEX because someone over 60 was allowed to continue working. I'm sure they will be very proud of you and the stand you took.

No, I don't think, I am just stupid. Thanks for your concern.

Anybody want to try to answer my question? Somebody please explain to me why an under 60 guy has to be in the cockpit. Anybody.

How about this over 60 dudes. Since you aren't qualified to be the PIC unless the under 60 guy is in the other seat, you aren't really qualified, so the under 60 guy should be the PIC. He doesn't need you to be there. So are all of the over 60 guys willing to go to the FO list in order to continue to fly?

That is just as logical as having to have a babysitter for the old guys.

Crickets chirping.............................................................

FJ

 

[Flopgut]

No, I don't think, I am just stupid. Thanks for your concern.

Anybody want to try to answer my question? Somebody please explain to me why an under 60 guy has to be in the cockpit. Anybody.

How about this over 60 dudes. Since you aren't qualified to be the PIC unless the under 60 guy is in the other seat, you aren't really qualified, so the under 60 guy should be the PIC. He doesn't need you to be there. So are all of the over 60 guys willing to go to the FO list in order to continue to fly?

That is just as logical as having to have a babysitter for the old guys.

Crickets chirping.............................................................

FJ

I like how your thinking, but I would stop short of not going to work. Look for an opportunity instead, for instance: Your thesis is perfect, why does one pilot have to be under 60? That under 60 pilot becomes very "key" to the operation and bears additional responsibiity. I think a pilot serving in that capacity (<60, enabling a 60+ pilot the opportunity to work) should get captain's pay. Or in the case of a <60 captain, premium pay. Age change guys should have no problem supporting that, right?

 

[FoxHunter]

Yes you do see a trend. The trend is that you still haven't been able to come up with a single rational explanation for the need to have one under 60 guy in the cockpit, yet continue to spew insults and call people names. Excellent way to convince people that you are right.

I have already conceded that you are the wise and experienced one and that I could never be worthy to pull the gear handle for you (not that I ever would since I know who you are), so now why don't you try to make one even slight argument to convince me why we need an under 60 guy to babysit the over 60 guy. Please. Address the issue for once instead of the smug, arrogant responses with the gay little smile faces in an effort to convince us that you are just kidding around. Come on, at least try.

And if I were to stage a sick out and lose my job, guess what, I will at least leave with my dignity and integrity intact. I will be able to sleep at night and I will find another way to support my family. You may not want me to be your FO, and that is fine. But if the law follows the ICAO standard, after you turn 60, you will NEED me as an FO.

FJ

You are correct. There is not one single reasonable reason for the requirement to have one pilot under age 60 in the cockpit. Neither of the original bills had such a requirement. ICAO had adopted the JAA rules that have been in effect for a number of years with out a problem.

I'm sure you've had little or no experience in the way thing work in Europe but you would find that the JAA is very, very conservative in their rules. The FAA requires one writtn exam for the ATP, the JAA requires 14 writtens. Years ago I had to take just one, the British Performance "A". The exam consisted of four questions, and you were allowed 4 hours to complete it. It was based on a large 4 engine turboprop, the Britania. One thick performance book of performance graphs for the aircraft, and a pad of graph paper to show your work.

These are the same people that changed the age to 65 years ago, with the one pilot under age 60 rule. These are the most conservative aviatiion authorities in the world, yet they have changed to age 65.

Why the pilot under age 60? Probably the same reason flight crews are required to go through the same security as the passengers. God help us if the flight crew may have a sharp object! Jeez the Captain may take control of the flight!!:bawling: No it just makes some of the ignorant comfortable.

 

[Flybynite]

No, I don't think, I am just stupid. Thanks for your concern.

Anybody want to try to answer my question? Somebody please explain to me why an under 60 guy has to be in the cockpit. Anybody.

How about this over 60 dudes. Since you aren't qualified to be the PIC unless the under 60 guy is in the other seat, you aren't really qualified, so the under 60 guy should be the PIC. He doesn't need you to be there. So are all of the over 60 guys willing to go to the FO list in order to continue to fly?

That is just as logical as having to have a babysitter for the old guys.

Crickets chirping.............................................................

FJ

I've changed my mind, you are not an idiot. You are on to something so you should stage your protest and get fired. This industry doesn't need a bunch of F/O's who now think they are PIC. Better luck in your next career.

 

[zonker]

Pilots are not required to go through the same security as the passengers.

They're only required to go through an approved screening process to enter the sterile area. Whether that is administered by the TSA or the airline, it is of no consequence to the TSA.

Wow! You have no idea what you're talking about yet again! :laugh:

 

[FoxHunter]

Pilots are not required to go through the same security as the passengers.

They're only required to go through an approved screening process to enter the sterile area. Whether that is administered by the TSA or the airline, it is of no consequence to the TSA.

Wow! You have no idea what you're talking about yet again! :laugh:

Hmm! Those crews I always see going through security must have gotten lost! I do recall a USAIR pilot arrested at PHL over the issue.

 

[zonker]

Hmm! Those crews I always see going through security must have gotten lost! I do recall a USAIR pilot arrested at PHL over the issue.

Right. And as usual you have no idea what the issue at hand is, pappy.

You keep working on it, and get someone to help you with that drool on your chin.

I'll say it again. Flightcrews are not required to go through TSA security.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Somebody please explain to me why an under 60 guy has to be in the cockpit. Anybody.

This is a very easy question.

Everthing is being driven by the ICAO rule change. The US rule will be changing to the restriction of one pilot being under age 60 while the other can be up to age 65 because that is the ICAO rule. The US wants to be in harmony with the rest of the world.

That was easy! Hit the button!

 

[Flopgut]

This is a very easy question.

Everthing is being driven by the ICAO rule change. The US rule will be changing to the restriction of one pilot being under age 60 while the other can be up to age 65 because that is the ICAO rule. The US wants to be in harmony with the rest of the world.

That was easy! Hit the button!

Would you agree the pilot whose age enables this operation deserves more/premium pay? Would you support that?

 

[FoxHunter]

Right. And as usual you have no idea what the issue at hand is, pappy.

You keep working on it, and get someone to help you with that drool on your chin.

I'll say it again. Flightcrews are not required to go through TSA security.

OK, Sonny!

 

[Flybynite]

Would you agree the pilot whose age enables this operation deserves more/premium pay? Would you support that?

Now wait a minute for the past 20 years I never got extra pay for being under 60. All you under 60 guys knew the rules when you hired on, captains get paid more. Now you want to change rules you knew about coming in? How about all you under 60 guys give up your seat to the commuter pilots? That is their F/O slot you are hogging.

Now tell me its not about greed. The entitlement generation speaks again.

Mine Mine Mine

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Would you agree the pilot whose age enables this operation deserves more/premium pay? Would you support that?

Why would any pilot object to increasing any crewmember's pay? Certainly I have no objection. So go for it.......if you can get it.

 

[Falconjet]

Yea, and it is not about greed for you is it. Its about discrimination. Right.

And you call me an idiot.

We will just have to agree that we disagree, meanwhile I will wait for somebody to defend the rationalization of an under 60 guy in the cockpit if its not a safety/health issue. I realize, Undaunted, that the law change will mimic the ICAO standard. What I would like is for one person to explain the logic and rationale behind the need for an under 60 guy, not try to impress me with a test they took from the JAA years ago.

Still nobody has even come close to explaining that rationale, and the reason is because you can't.

Keep trying though, I would love to hear it.

FJ

 

[FoxHunter]

Yea, and it is not about greed for you is it. Its about discrimination. Right.

And you call me an idiot.

We will just have to agree that we disagree, meanwhile I will wait for somebody to defend the rationalization of an under 60 guy in the cockpit if its not a safety/health issue. I realize, Undaunted, that the law change will mimic the ICAO standard. What I would like is for one person to explain the logic and rationale behind the need for an under 60 guy, not try to impress me with a test they took from the JAA years ago.

Still nobody has even come close to explaining that rationale, and the reason is because you can't.

Keep trying though, I would love to hear it.

FJ

FJ,

You'll understand someday.:beer: Just like some day you may be a F/O or Captain. The logic matters little, probably less than your opinion. The authorities of the world have agreed that the age 60 limitation for airline pilots is no longer valid, if it ever was. Some authorities think there should be no limit, some think it should be 66 or 67, some think it should be 65 with no other restrictions, some think age 65 with the one pilot under the age of 60. It has been agreed to use the age 65 with the one pilot under age 60 rule until more data can be collected.

The bottom line is that it has been agreed that age 60 is no longer valid. The age 60 rule will be history, just a matter of how that change is implemented.:beer:

 

[Booster]

FJ I think the answer to your "under 60 guy in the cockpit" is purely political:
Incrementalism

The over/under age 60 stays in place for some period then the under 60 rule goes away at some point in the future when it has become more politically easy to swallow. Standard politics these days.

 

[zonker]

Now tell me its not about greed. The entitlement generation speaks again.

Mine Mine Mine

And what do you call yourself? You're a sad representative in any case.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Please continue to think about how B plans came into being. One element in their creation was age 60 pilot retirement. I agree, B plans are all we have left going forward. However, that doesn't make them secure; In this airline mgt environment, that just makes them the next target. This is just one example of pitfalls we continue to face and why age 65 is a lateral step.

FYI, When the B plan was created, ALPA was officially opposed to age 60. I will say again, the B plan was created totally and only as a back up just in case the company went broke and that DB plan was terminated. And in fact, a “B” (DC) plan makes more sense and is more compatible with an older retirement age, such as age 65. As with any DC plan, the longer you work the more secure your eventual retirement.

Regarding the security of the B plan, since the funds are held totally independent from the company, the B plan is as secure as your bank account or your personal Schwab account.

You fought B scale and have a battlestar to show for it. But now, you're pushing an age change with junior pilots still on the street. This large scale change amounts to 15-20% of a pilots working years and includes no provision to mitigate detriment to junior pilots. OUCH! Think back to the day you got that battlestar, what would you think of this at that time of your career? Basically, you're sort of creating a B scale with this change, actually worse.

The issue is much simpler than all of this. It's now about discrimination against Americans. Every citizen should advocate no discrimination against anyone, and that certainly includes Americans.

I can acknowledge that even with a change, those who are junior will eventually have a chance to be senior. However, they aren't going to enjoy the 5 year windfall you will. They will have to work half those years just to make up what they lost, and that's the best case scenario. That's not how collective bargaining works! That's not what earned you the battlestar!

It is true that when the age changes those under age 60 will be the most fortunate, and unfortunately it is those over age 60 that are the ones being hurt. Every pilot under age 60, all the way to the kid in flight school is going to come out ahead in terms of total dollars earned and retirement security following the age change.

I empathize with your need to work. I'd like to see you get a good deal. But, I don't think it's too much to ask, that as you push this age change you also consider how to help ALL of us. When you say "A plans are gone for good" or "B plan contributions may end age 60 or 65" I seriously doubt you want to help all of us. If AA comes through all this with an A plan in tact, you better change your tune and get ready to secure something similiar (albeit more secure) for your UAL bretheren. I don't think you're interested in helping all your UAL brothers and that's why I don't think you should be on the list in 09.
If I could be sure you wanted to help everyone, I would help you

All Defined Benefit retirement plans, including Social Security, are under threat at all times. The problem is that unions in the post WWII days until recently, when America was the only real industrial power, have negotiated very generous retirement packages for employees who now days live ten years longer than they used to. Example: At General Motors workers can retire at age 48 with 30 years of service and collect 80% of pay for very possibly 30 years to a typical life expectancy of 78. In other words a typical worker can work for 30 years and retire for 30 years. How can this continue? It can not, if GM is to survive and stay competitive with the global market for car production. So the same is true for the Airlines and their DB programs. The American airlines must compete in a world market and a domestic market too. If United, SW, Jet Blue, Air Tran, Delta, US Air, NWA, Frontier, all the Regionals and soon Virgin America all have DC plans, how can any American airline maintain a DB plan with pilots being hired at 40 years old and then retiring at 60, then collecting a generous retirement for possibly 20 or 25 more years.

Considering the above, really, if American Airlines has any hope of keeping their DB plan, the age must be changed to age 65 to reduce their pension liability.

And if you consider the changes in the typical airline pilot's career where pilots typically work for a commuter or two or three and then maybe a corporate job too, it's too destructive to any pension expectation to have anything other than a DC plan where the retirement money in the 401k plan can so easily be transferred from job to job.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Still nobody has even come close to explaining that rationale, and the reason is because you can't.

Keep trying though, I would love to hear it.

Clearly, there has been an expressed concern about changing the age 60 rule in America, so this is just that first step to appease those views. Eventually, the part about one pilot being under age 60 will go away. Bureaucracies make changes one step at a time.

In fifty years when science developes an anti-aging hormone, the retirement age will go to maybe 67, with one pilot under age 65

 

[Flopgut]

Why would any pilot object to increasing any crewmember's pay? Certainly I have no objection. So go for it.......if you can get it.

Well, I appreciate your willingness to consider this. It is additional responsibility and should warrant additional pay. In an accident/incident scenario additional scrutiny IS going to be focused on the <60 pilot. It is unfortunate the additional reponsibility does not come with additional authority, it should at least include the pay. Most of the 60+ pilots are going to be captains initially; the <60 FO that makes this possible won't be any closer to the tiller, but if the jet leaves the payment, everyones going to be pointing a finger at them like never before, IMHO.

RE: B plans, what I'm saying is: If you had the money, you wouldn't have to work. It is too defeatest for you to say AA is not going to hold on to theirs. (I think they will) If they can keep one, then that is what we all need to shoot for in the coming years. Not a DB per say, but something of equal value for sure. I would hope the APAAD crowd and pilots like yourself can immediately turn and focus on broad based improvements in the future and not go back to the thinking: how can we help ourselves? Example: I want the money back and I want to retire at 60. In your scheme, I lose money permantently and if you need more your coming back to me. In my scheme, I want to see pilots senior AND junior to me get their money back. What's not to like about my plan?

 

[Flopgut]

Now wait a minute for the past 20 years I never got extra pay for being under 60. All you under 60 guys knew the rules when you hired on, captains get paid more. Now you want to change rules you knew about coming in? How about all you under 60 guys give up your seat to the commuter pilots? That is their F/O slot you are hogging.

Now tell me its not about greed. The entitlement generation speaks again.

Mine Mine Mine

Wow! You really revealed yourself there. Good job!