Age 60 informal poll

[Klako]

Klako- I meant facts to show that Andy has distorted the truth. Andy's post seemed to have more specifics than anything in this entire thread.

Andy's and your arguments are based solely on the grounds that no one has come up with a study proving that pilots will be safer beyond their 60th birthday, that the available safety data and latest medical research are insufficient for an extension to the age 60 rule. Thus Andy's position is that, in spite of numerous scientific studies, there is insufficient evidence to prove that an airline pilot would be as safe or safer if allowed to fly beyond age 60 and therefore ALL US airline pilots must be grounded on their 60th birthday. What a pitiful distortion of logic used to deprive otherwise qualified persons their right to perform in their lifelong career. If the Federal government wants a law that denies an otherwise qualified person to practice in their profession, then that government must prove that there are enough scientific reasons for such a law to exist. It is the federal government’s burden to prove that all airline pilots suffer an unacceptable decline in their ability to fly beyond age 60 which poses an unacceptable safety risk to the flying public. This proof is something that Congress has repeatedly directed the FAA to come up with for over 20 years but the FAA has failed produce such proof. That proof simply dose not exist

 

[Klako]

Correct the record or shut your piehole.

You and Undaunted never answer fact-based arguments. For 40 pages now, whenever anyone makes a valid fact-based argument, you ignore it and move on like it never happened. You just spout the same rhetoric like a deaf crazy person. In fact, maybe you are deaf and crazy. Both often accompany aging. No, that can't be right. Aging has no effects. To imply otherwise would be discriminatory.

WHAT ARE ANDY'S DISTORTIONS OF THE TRUTH? PLEASE POINT OUT THE FACTUAL ERRORS. PLEASE SUPPLY FACTS TO DISPUTE THESE ERRORS.
AGAIN -- CORRECT THE RECORD. ADDRESS THE FACTS POINT BY POINT. RESPOND WITH FACTS. IF YOU CANNOT, PLEASE SHUT UP AND GO AWAY!!!

PIPE

I was primarly refering to Andy's distortions of my personal situation. My or anyones personal situation should never have been discussed. The issue is that qualified pilots are forced out of their profession for no other reason than their age and that is simply wrong!

 

[Andy]

I was primarly refering to Andy's distortions of my personal situation. My or anyones personal situation should never have been discussed. The issue is that qualified pilots are forced out of their profession for no other reason than their age and that is simply wrong!

Klako, if I had made any statements that were a gross misrepresentation of your situation, you'd be posting a detailed response.
As for bringing forth personal situations, you opened that can of worms all by yourself by stating a distorted picture of your personal situation. I was merely correcting your distortions.

 

[ils2minimums]

 

[Andy]

Andy's and your arguments are based solely on the grounds that no one has come up with a study proving that pilots will be safer beyond their 60th birthday, that the available safety data and latest medical research are insufficient for an extension to the age 60 rule.

No, I've posted two reports that were based on multiple scientific studies that support the fact that the negative effects of aging outweigh pilot experience beyond the age of 55. The available safety data is very clear on that point.

 

[Klako]

Klako, if I had made any statements that were a gross misrepresentation of your situation, you'd be posting a detailed response.
As for bringing forth personal situations, you opened that can of worms all by yourself by stating a distorted picture of your personal situation. I was merely correcting your distortions.

I started to rebut some of your assumptions you made about my personal situation but I am just not going there.

Let us stick to the relevant stuff.

It is really sad that our industry has been reduced to a dog eat dog, stab the other guy in that back before you get stabbed first jungle atmosphere. Both sides are guilty of not willing to compromise. I only wish all of us could separate the ultimate right from wrong, but that now seems to be hopelessly clouded by our own personal feelings.

My bottom line is that all of us would ultimately benefit if the age 60 rule were changed but if it is not now changed it never will.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Andy's and your arguments are based solely on the grounds that no one has come up with a study proving that pilots will be safer beyond their 60th birthday, that the available safety data and latest medical research are insufficient for an extension to the age 60 rule. Thus Andy's position is that, in spite of numerous scientific studies, there is insufficient evidence to prove that an airline pilot would be as safe or safer if allowed to fly beyond age 60 and therefore ALL US airline pilots must be grounded on their 60th birthday. What a pitiful distortion of logic used to deprive otherwise qualified persons their right to perform in their lifelong career. If the Federal government wants a law that denies an otherwise qualified person to practice in their profession, then that government must prove that there are enough scientific reasons for such a law to exist. It is the federal government’s burden to prove that all airline pilots suffer an unacceptable decline in their ability to fly beyond age 60 which poses an unacceptable safety risk to the flying public. This proof is something that Congress has repeatedly directed the FAA to come up with for over 20 years but the FAA has failed produce such proof. That proof simply dose not exist

A well written post that is 100% accurate. Thank you for this. It hits the nail right on the head. And it will be the basis the coming change.

The change is a done deal as has even been stated by Duane Woerth.

 

[AAflyer]

A well written post that is 100% accurate. Thank you for this. It hits the nail right on the head. And it will be the basis the coming change.

The change is a done deal as has even been stated by Duane Woerth.

Undaunted,

I got a kick out of the article you were in. Out of curiosity, why wern't you pushing hard for this when you were an FO? I can't remember wether it was you or the pilot who felt he would be a burden on society. Having to send his child to college an all. Aren't you the one who bought him a plane? Don't you have another for sale? I can hardly afford to rent a plane, and I will 3 kids to put through college. I am a S80 FO not making nearly what you make, or made during those 3 years you guys were at the top.

How much additional income do you make as a DE? I have doubts that all over 60 pilots will be medically fit to fly, so does ICAO, why do they have a limitation on one being under the age of 60.

I agree that it can be done... However I would have a hell of a lot more respect for you if just said the real reason you want to continue flying. It is the same reason I want you gone. i would like to enjoy the seat you are in.

Age discrimination right.... SO why 65? Sounds like age discrimination again? Another arbitrary number right? However it suits you for the time being so it is ok..right? How about being at the bottom of my new-hire class because of my age.... Should I sue my employer for age discrimination?


AAflyer

I know...I know.... I will be able to fly an additional 5 years as well. Just what I wanted to do... Thanks for changing the rules in he middle of the game.

 

[FoxHunter]

Undaunted,


How much additional income do you make as a DE? I have doubts that all over 60 pilots will be medically fit to fly, so does ICAO, why do they have a limitation on one being under the age of 60.

I agree that it can be done... However I would have a hell of a lot more respect for you if just said the real reason you want to continue flying. It is the same reason I want you gone. i would like to enjoy the seat you are in.

Age discrimination right.... SO why 65? Sounds like age discrimination again? Another arbitrary number right? However it suits you for the time being so it is ok..right? How about being at the bottom of my new-hire class because of my age.... Should I sue my employer for age discrimination?


AAflyer

I know...I know.... I will be able to fly an additional 5 years as well. Just what I wanted to do... Thanks for changing the rules in he middle of the game.

Why 65? Why one pilot under age 60?

If you read the ICAO study on the subject you will find it was adopted because that has been the standard in Europe and Japan for a number of years. It goes on to say that it is believe that neither is necessary and both are expected to be dropped. By the time you get to age 65 there probably will be no age 65 restriction.:beer:

 

[AAflyer]

Why 65? Why one pilot under age 60?

If you read the ICAO study on the subject you will find it was adopted because that has been the standard in Europe and Japan for a number of years. It goes on to say that it is believe that neither is necessary and both are expected to be dropped. By the time you get to age 65 there probably will be no age 65 restriction.:beer:

I figured you would respond.... I already have some of you squinting over the taxi diagrams at night, I am sure I will have to carry one of your bags into the cockpit next.. I am sure I will keep doing the walk arounds as it will be risky for you to get up and down the jetbridge.

Alteast I will get my choice of crew meals, as the other will be a can of Ensure.


Yup,

I bet you were just screaming for the age 60 abolishment when you were an FO as well.


Like I said FOX, you would get a heck of a lot more respect if you just say it is all about me, I want more money, and I want to keep flying. I really have no care for how it alters your career path as a junior pilot. I knew what the rules were when I got in, however I WAITED till it was OPRTUNE (AS A WIDE-BODY CAPTAIN) to change it.

 

[FoxHunter]

I figured you would respond.... I already have some of you squinting over the taxi diagrams at night, I am sure I will have to carry one of your bags into the cockpit next.. I am sure I will keep doing the walk arounds as it will be risky for you to get up and down the jetbridge.

Alteast I will get my choice of crew meals, as the other will be a can of Ensure.


Yup,

I bet you were just screaming for the age 60 abolishment when you were an FO as well.


Like I said FOX, you would get a heck of a lot more respect if you just say it is all about me, I want more money, and I want to keep flying. I really have no care for how it alters your career path as a junior pilot. I knew what the rules were when I got in, however I WAITED till it was OPRTUNE (AS A WIDE-BODY CAPTAIN) to change it.

When I was going to get furloughed, or was on furlough it was really only the junior guys that had much interest in the issue. Just natural one is interested in the issues that impact them. I'm interested because it impacts me, you are because it impacts you, just looking at the same issue from a different view point.

 

[AAflyer]

When I was going to get furloughed, or was on furlough it was really only the junior guys that had much interest in the issue. Just natural one is interested in the issues that impact them. I'm interested because it impacts me, you are because it impacts you, just looking at the same issue from a different view point.

That has been my point all along. You actually get more respect, atleast from me, saying it is all about you. The age discrimination, or the "all the experienced pilots" will be leaving is BS.

Thanks for your honesty!!

AAflyer

Now, beat it old man

 

[§kyye Candy]

Here we go again, experienced Hero Pilot from ALOHA forced to retire. Must make room for new pilots. Can they equal this captain?

Besides the amazingly overinflated ego you are showcasing here, do we really want to get into a discussion of who is more proficient?

Not to complain, but let's get real here for a second: turboprop NDB approaches in the mountains, IMC, no autopilot, 16 hour days, all quick-turns, no commutable schedules, McDonalds for dinner (if they're still open), minimal equipment available for swap-outs, and (relatively) virtually zero work rules... VS. sitting on your butt and reading a book for all of TWO legs until FAF and then enduring the 5 min. ride to the 5 star hotel for the 14 hour L/O.

Just out of curiosity... where exactly is this veteran Capt., who is unequaled by any, getting his "experience?"

 

[FoxHunter]

That has been my point all along. You actually get more respect, atleast from me, saying it is all about you. The age discrimination, or the "all the experienced pilots" will be leaving is BS.

Thanks for your honesty!!

AAflyer

Now, beat it old man

Not if I can help it!

BTW I flew DC8 F/O for a Dominican company called Aerovias Quesqueyana where the DC8 Chief Pilot was age 69, and the other Captains were age 60+. All retired EAL. During the same time period almost all the Air Jamaica Captains were age 60+ retired EAL. Then in 1975 the FAA changed the rules. ICAO went to the age 60 standard in the early 70s and the FAA decided that over 60 Captains from foreign airlines could no longer fly into the USA. The oldest line pilot at Air Jamaica was former EAL pilot, age 66, when it ended.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Not if I can help it!

BTW I flew DC8 F/O for a Dominican company called Aerovias Quesqueyana where the DC8 Chief Pilot was age 69, and the other Captains were age 60+. All retired EAL. During the same time period almost all the Air Jamaica Captains were age 60+ retired EAL. Then in 1975 the FAA changed the rules. ICAO went to the age 60 standard in the early 70s and the FAA decided that over 60 Captains from foreign airlines could no longer fly into the USA. The oldest line pilot at Air Jamaica was former EAL pilot, age 66, when it ended.

Oh, for the love of Baby Jesus! That airline sounded like a nursing home on a big tricycle!! I imagine a Cocoon movie setting with all the old geezer pilots pushing their little walkers (with the cool tennis ball anti-skid on paired legs! ) out to the jet for a little spin around S. America.

Mrs. BBB and I are dealing with parts falling off both sets of parents (barely 70 mind you ... about the same age as your previous chief pilot!) ... it ain't pretty. We're talking hip replacements (x2), quadruple bypass for one of 'em, multiple ER visits between the four of them in the last 2 years ... heck, I spent all Father's day last year with dear old dad guess where? ... bingo Fox ... in the EMERGENCY ROOM!

Some of you act like you're immune to the declining health (mental AND physical) aspects associated with aging. I say lay the crack pipe down Pops and realize your vertical time left on Mother Earth is precious AND limited! Go teach your grandkids to fish and let the young kid raising a family behind you have his shot in the big chair! :smash:

BBB