Age 60 informal poll

[Phaedrus]

"A house divided against itself cannot stand". Wow, your creative writing is really improving. From cut and paste to the a tired old cliche you've used about 80,000 times in one thread. Yawn.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

There is growing support within the pilot unions to change the “Age 60 Rule". The following unions and pilot employee groups have gone on record that they support a change the Age 60 Rule:

CONTINENTAL (ALPA Local Executive Councils of Houston and Newark)

Not true. Bad info no such resolution has ever passed in Newark. Get your facts straight.

 

[Deadbug]

There is growing support within the pilot unions to change the “Age 60 Rule". The following unions and pilot employee groups have gone on record that they support a change the Age 60 Rule:

US AIRWAYS....

Not correct...the US Airways MEC merely conducted a relatively short-notice and short-duration POLL. With only 64% voting...BY A ONE-VOTE margin--a preference for changing the age-60 rule.

The actual significance is this: If one of the "grayest" part 121 pilot groups can only do a one-vote majority...what does that really say?

By the way, the poll, in and of itself, is not the official MEC policy. Given the one-vote spread, I don't believe the MEC can go on the record as supporting any change.

 

[Tailwheelin]

I am amazed by the dissent on this issue. It seems to me that only reasons to keep age 60 are selfish and seniority based. This 60 number isn't based on scientific data- it was created by the management and for the management to have less numbers of the highest paid employees... it's about as fair a "B" scale. Oh, that's right ALPA supported that too.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

"A house divided against itself cannot stand".

 

[Flopgut]

Undaunted: What? Are you trying to "unite" this group? You won't do that by pushing this through. You are simply trying to put your own needs in front of everyone else's, again. Just like you were going to do when UAL was going to buy USAir and Cactus; you were going to hose those guys. There no doubting your seriousness, we all know what you did to Frontier. (ALPA merger policy meant something until that stunt)

You have lived your whole career by the [seniority] sword to be sure, and this is no different. I think you're trying to hoard more seniority for yourself, so I'm going to vehemently opose your effort. Was I supposed to learn anything different from watching you? What sort of example have you set? You have never missed a chance to put your own needs first on any issue, and this is no different.

If you want to unite the group, do something selfless.

 

[Klako]

"Growing sentiment" I don't think so. More like: " in ONE person's opinion - klacko - ". That's all it is, one guy's opinion.

You guys can kiss the seniority system good by IF this policy changes......... hopefully not in my lifetime.

The current system is not about seniority, it is all about "juniority".

The curse that began in 1959 will soon end.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Undaunted: You are simply trying to put your own needs in front of everyone else's, again. Just like you were going to do when UAL was going to buy USAir and Cactus; you were going to hose those guys. There's no doubting your seriousness, we all know what you did to Frontier. (ALPA merger policy meant something until that stunt)


You have never missed a chance to put your own needs first on any issue, and this is no different.

If you want to unite the group, do something selfless.

Flopgut: With all due respect to your thoughts about me, I have had nothing to do with any of the above accusations. Nothing ever happened at US Air or Cactus so how could anyone know what UAL or the pilot group was going to do. And Frontier, that was a UAL deal, just as it was with Air Willy. No individual or group of pilots or even me had anything do with that or the NWA - Republic deal either, or the Delta - Western deal, or the UAL - Pan Am deal either. You give me personally way to much credit and/or blame. I'm just an ordinary line pilot trying to make a living day by day while on a very rocky aviation road.

Now regarding the age 60 issue, when this passes there will be closure because the whole world will be on the same page. The house will no longer be divided as I have said so many times. Right now the pilot unions are divided, and they are being conquered by management plus the government. Once we have closure there can not help but be more unity and that will lead to progress, or so I would expect.

The age 60 rule will change soon, so why not now? Is it because all those who oppose it on this board are under 55 or they are with AA and think they will retire at age 60 with full pensions (for now)?

Age 65 is for the best thing for everyone in the long term. Those that are age 59 when it changes will be the lucky ones. But it's just luck. If I'm lucky then that's just my good fortune, if it's you then you're the lucky one. The only truism is that this law should have been changed long ago so others who needed to work could have benefited.

And in a final thought, in the future 10 years or so, those that will have the option of working past age 60 will look back and say to themselves how ridiculous it was to ever have been opposed to flying past age 60.

 

[mdanno808]

I have to disagree. I know lot's of pilot's who want out the minute they turn 60. They have saved, prepared, and want to enjoy the rest of their lives. My dad told me something when the age 60 issue started coming up again (he had recently retired). He said, with my luck I'd work to 65, drive home and die of a heart attack the next day. No cruises, no vacations, no time to enjoy the grandkids. Only work and death.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I know lot's of pilot's who want out the minute they turn 60. They have saved, prepared, and want to enjoy the rest of their lives.

This was all true when most of the airline's pilots had pensions (like your dad I presume). But this has all changed now. As the pensions disappear the need to retire is overwhelmed by the need to survive.

I will tell you that every airline pilot with only a defined contribution retirement plan will want to work as long as he/she can unless that person has had great financial good fortune by something such as having a wealthy spouse or winning the state lottery. The fact is that right now it will be almost impossible for 95% of the airline pilots who start in the commuters to save enough money to comfortably retire at age 60. After all, for many pilots it's hard to even make ends meet much less sock away money for retirement. And then throw in a divorce or two (which is all too common in our profession), a serious illness in the family or some bad luck investment, and you may be flat broke when you're 60. You never know what the future will bring, good or bad.

The option of being able to work to age 65 is the only answer for the long term security of everyone.

Quit when you want to. That's the answer. Why burden yourself with limitations on providing for your family.

 

[mdanno808]

Story of 2 pilots. Both friends of the family, and both United pilots. One retires this year, and one retires in 08 (I believe). First one will retire 75/76, and was a non-scheder (flew for zantop, flemming, ONA, etc.). Saved every dime he could, and is looking forward to retirement. Has planned accordingly, and while the loss of his db plan will change the lifestyle considerably, he will live in retirement, and will be able to live comfortably. 2nd one is in deep $hit. 2 ex wives, 2 houses (a third being built in Vegas), and was going to live off of his db and company stock (that great esops program). Survival during retirement is based on how you planned for your golden years. Now, I don't think that it is okay that the companies terminated the db plans, and captains are retiring only to make 2300/month (the last figure that the first guy told me). I also understand that different circumstances surround each pilot facing retirement. You can not tell me though, that 95% of the pilots facing retirement will not be able to do so at 60 and survive.

I completely understand your opinion, and agree with much of what you have to say. Pensions were promised to employees, and it is unfair that the companies turn around and throw them to the PBGC. Airline pilot's are being treated very unfairly, and believe me, I have experienced the junior man's screw job by being furloughed for going on 4 years. Our differences are mainly due to perspective. One thing I think that we can agree on is this: Any pilot who is not throwing every penny available into a 401k, IRA, and whatever DC plan they have available are fools. Good luck to everyone, and we'll all see what happens.

 

[sandman2122]

Wtf?

The current system is not about seniority, it is all about "juniority".

The curse that began in 1959 will soon end.

Okay it's official - you're nuts. With your comment about the seniority system, you come across so far out of touch I question if you're even an airline pilot.

Good luck finding a cure the "curse of 1959".

 

[mdanno808]

One last thing. The 65 thing will benefit some people and screw some people. Either way, one group will be happy, and one won't. Hopefully they can figure something out that will piss everyone off.

 

[100 c.i.]

What about all the furlough guys like myself that need to feed our families. The bottom line is if you did not prepare to retire at 60 do you think 65 will be different. Step aside and let the guys that are just looking to make a living have a chance and quit being so selfish. This should not even be a issue until all the furloughees are back to work and your airline starts to hire and upgrade again.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

One group will be happy, and one won't. Hopefully they can figure something out that will piss everyone off.

Really and truly, the whole group of working pilots will be better off and happier in the long term. There really are no losers among the working (or furloughed) pilots group. Longer careers mean more total career earnings and more saved for retirement. The only people who will be at a loss will be the ones who fall through the cracks during the transition by turning 60 just before the date. They will be able to be re-employed but may not come back with their seniority unless their company allowed a LOA or they were able to down-bid to an FE position at their airline.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Really and truly, the whole group of working pilots will be better off and happier in the long term.

Undaunted,

How are you going to feel when you lose your seniority number when you turn 60? Think it can’t happen – watch. You watch the lawsuits start flying. The lawsuit will contain the economic damages your group seeks to impose on the junior members of the seniority lists.

Be aware -- you don’t own that seat or your seniority number.

Your comments about how everyone will be better off and happier is both self-serving and shows how out of touch you are with reality. Make no mistake about it, this will economically harm pilots under the age of 55.

All this amounts to is a transfer of wealth from junior to senior.

In disunity,

AA767AV8TOR

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

To AA767AV8TOR: All of what you say makes no sense what so ever and sounds like the usual scare tactic used by those with a defined benefit retirement pension such as you have. I would guess that you will have a military pension too.

You see pilots like you with a pension (plus an military pension for double dipping) that allows them to "retire" at age 60 with nearly full pay, such as your situation, have a distorted idea of reality and don't really understand how selfish they are, giving no consideration to all the others who only have what they can save, never knowing if it is enough. You, on the other hand have a pension that you will receive for the rest of your life (unless the airline part is terminated and or the government goes broke).

So I say, quit trying to get all that money for no work by retiring at age 60. Get real please. It’s time to let those people who have the experience and the skills continue working at their profession instead of making up all the BS such as you like to put forth as forecasts of doom and gloom. None of what you say is of substance for consideration for or against change. The only correct question is right verses wrong, and discrimination is wrong, whether it's age discrimination or discrimination against Americans. Do you support age discrimination or discrimination against Americans over foreigners?

Just explain, if you will, why foreign pilots should be able to fly and earn his/her living flying into and out of the USA and not an American who may have served in the military and paid taxes for 40 years. I know one pilot (from AA) who will turn 60 in June and he flew combat in Vietnam and in the Gulf War. What have the foreigners like the Germans or the Japs or the Saudies done to get the privilege and not Americans?

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut: With all due respect to your thoughts about me, I have had nothing to do with any of the above accusations. Nothing ever happened at US Air or Cactus so how could anyone know what UAL or the pilot group was going to do. And Frontier, that was a UAL deal, just as it was with Air Willy. No individual or group of pilots or even me had anything do with that or the NWA - Republic deal either, or the Delta - Western deal, or the UAL - Pan Am deal either. You give me personally way to much credit and/or blame. I'm just an ordinary line pilot trying to make a living day by day while on a very rocky aviation road.

That was NOT a UAL deal. That was a pilot deal. Both ALPA carriers; some version of merger policy should have been used. BTW, FAL did a nice job of minding your picket line didn't they? Those that remeber that, know how things would have gone with USAir and AW.

When did all ICAO carriers become one house? We need to be concerned about US carriers and US pilot careers. If you are really able to effect policy on this, why are you not asking about a railroad type pension for pilots? Why are you not pushing for an air transporation policy? Ask how could it be possible that NWA's bad day at DTW could inspire the "passenger bill of rights" and wx events of the last year couldn't muster an "energy users bill of rights? Why is the airline industry the bastard child? Think big picture if you really want to fix this. Pension loss is a symptom of bigger problems. Your only reall ally here is Klako, we let that sort of imperative rule this issue and we're all screwed.

 

[Flopgut]

To AA767AV8TOR: All of what you say makes no sense what so ever and sounds like the usual scare tactic used by those with a defined benefit retirement pension such as you have. I would guess that you will have a military pension too.

You see pilots like you with a pension (plus an military pension for double dipping) that allows them to "retire" at age 60 with nearly full pay, such as your situation, have a distorted idea of reality and don't really understand how selfish they are, giving no consideration to all the others who only have what they can save, never knowing if it is enough. You, on the other hand have a pension that you will receive for the rest of your life (unless the airline part is terminated and or the government goes broke).

So I say, quit trying to get all that money for no work by retiring at age 60. Get real please. It’s time to let those people who have the experience and the skills continue working at their profession instead of making up all the BS such as you like to put forth as forecasts of doom and gloom. None of what you say is of substance for consideration for or against change. The only correct question is right verses wrong, and discrimination is wrong, whether it's age discrimination or discrimination against Americans. Do you support age discrimination or discrimination against Americans over foreigners?

Just explain, if you will, why foreign pilots should be able to fly and earn his/her living flying into and out of the USA and not an American who may have served in the military and paid taxes for 40 years. I know one pilot (from AA) who will turn 60 in June and he flew combat in Vietnam and in the Gulf War. What have the foreigners like the Germans or the Japs or the Saudies done to get the privilege and not Americans?

All of your science and pleading to stop discrimination does not answer the moral question: Do you have the right to preclude another pilot the same seniority progression you enjoyed? Further to the point: As you are perched at the top making the best money and enjoying the best quality of life for 5 more years, the rest of the profession is going to struggle to make what you got by age 60. Is that right? It's not, and you have no compromise in mind.

Go fly for an overseas carrier! They have different rules. If you're that great they would love to hire you.

 

[zonker]

I am amazed by the dissent on this issue. It seems to me that only reasons to keep age 60 are selfish and seniority based. This 60 number isn't based on scientific data- it was created by the management and for the management to have less numbers of the highest paid employees... it's about as fair a "B" scale. Oh, that's right ALPA supported that too.

No sh-t, Sherlock

There's nothing selfish on the part of those who want to abolish it?



Play with your grandkids, go fishing, buy a Cessna.

GET A LIFE!