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Age 60 informal poll

  • Thread starter Thread starter 71KILO
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 146

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Abolish the Age 60 Rule for other that Part 91 pilots?

  • Yea

    Votes: 668 35.5%
  • Nay

    Votes: 1,214 64.5%

  • Total voters
    1,882
Andy: You certainly seem very high on your horse.

Now do you or does anyone really think that I don't know the promotion schedule of the replacements when a sr. captain retires? And of course when I said that my replacement comes on the bottom of the pile as an RJ F/O I was speaking in the most basic terms of where a new person starts in the chain. I am surprised it has taken me three postings to clarify this to those who wanted to take exception to that post.

Now regarding your suggestion that the age 60 rule change is a long way off, that is just not correct. It will either be done through this congress or possibly early in the next or maybe not at all in congress. In that case the FAA will make the change. And contrary to their usual rule making process requiring several years, this change is moving at a very fast speed. The change by the FAA alone will be in months, not years. It may even be in time for me, but it does not look promising for me at this time.

Before I post, my apologies for the crass post. I am halfway around the world - flew as a passenger, not in the cockpit. When I posted, I was exhausted (extremely jetlagged) and had a few good German beers in me. I lacked restraint and let my feelings guide my post. But make no mistake about it; my true raw feelings were expressed toward you. Now, a response:

High horse? You were furloughed; not nearly as long as me, but you've been furloughed. How would you feel if the senior Capts were pushing for changing age 60 right when the end of the furlough tunnel was in sight? You would've been much more pissed than me.
I can't believe that you have the audacity to play the victim here. And I know that you are WELL aware of what your proposed age change will do to the junior pilots. One only needs to look at how those of us on the street got screwed by C2003. You think of no one but yourself; don't pretend to defend the profession.

You know as well as I that the upgrade chain is different during times when there are furloughed pilots. Don't try to BS your way out by expressing that an RJ FO will benefit from your retirement; it's likely that s/he will not - too many intermediate pilots jammed in the pipeline. And I'd like to point out that the junior RJ FO has more experience than you had when you were hired at UAL. What was your experience when you were a UAL newhire? I won't begin to address your address your arrogance about your valuable experience - accident statistics, based on 100,000 flt hours/accident, speak otherwise. I love how the pro-change crowd pushes accidents/pilot statistics rather than accidents/100K hrs. Just how much sick leave does the average pilot burn between 55 & 60? And a much greater percentage of flying time for senior pilots is spent in cruise flight, much safer than the high cycle flying experienced by young pilots.

If you think that an age change is going to happen anytime soon, you have zero understanding of the monumental change that took place for the midterm. I'd take the time to walk you through it, but it is obviously a waste of electrons. Just ask yourself why Bert Yetman (at ppf.org) has not yet published a December newsletter. It isn't because there is good news on the horizon.
I do not understand why you are in such denial over this; you've had a good career. Your career has ended. Those of us who had hoped to have a career half as good as yours are not happy that you are resistant to get your azz off property. I've tried the crowbar to your posterior to vacate your current seat; you now deserve a crowbar to your cranium case. I can't believe that you lack the intelligence to realize that you will be retiring very, very soon. Truly sad.
 
I do not understand why you are in such denial over this; you've had a good career. Your career has ended. Those of us who had hoped to have a career half as good as yours are not happy that you are resistant to get your azz off property. I've tried the crowbar to your posterior to vacate your current seat; you now deserve a crowbar to your cranium case. I can't believe that you lack the intelligence to realize that you will be retiring very, very soon. Truly sad.


Great job Andy!

I've really enjoyed your posts on the subject. They've really helped me understand the entire process, because the information is hard to find and difficult to follow.

Keep it up brother!

:beer:
 
Before I post, my apologies for the crass post. I am halfway around the world - flew as a passenger, not in the cockpit. When I posted, I was exhausted (extremely jetlagged) and had a few good German beers in me. I lacked restraint and let my feelings guide my post. But make no mistake about it; my true raw feelings were expressed toward you. Now, a response:

High horse? You were furloughed; not nearly as long as me, but you've been furloughed. How would you feel if the senior Capts were pushing for changing age 60 right when the end of the furlough tunnel was in sight? You would've been much more pissed than me.
I can't believe that you have the audacity to play the victim here. And I know that you are WELL aware of what your proposed age change will do to the junior pilots. One only needs to look at how those of us on the street got screwed by C2003. You think of no one but yourself; don't pretend to defend the profession.

You know as well as I that the upgrade chain is different during times when there are furloughed pilots. Don't try to BS your way out by expressing that an RJ FO will benefit from your retirement; it's likely that s/he will not - too many intermediate pilots jammed in the pipeline. And I'd like to point out that the junior RJ FO has more experience than you had when you were hired at UAL. What was your experience when you were a UAL newhire? I won't begin to address your address your arrogance about your valuable experience - accident statistics, based on 100,000 flt hours/accident, speak otherwise. I love how the pro-change crowd pushes accidents/pilot statistics rather than accidents/100K hrs. Just how much sick leave does the average pilot burn between 55 & 60? And a much greater percentage of flying time for senior pilots is spent in cruise flight, much safer than the high cycle flying experienced by young pilots.

If you think that an age change is going to happen anytime soon, you have zero understanding of the monumental change that took place for the midterm. I'd take the time to walk you through it, but it is obviously a waste of electrons. Just ask yourself why Bert Yetman (at ppf.org) has not yet published a December newsletter. It isn't because there is good news on the horizon.
I do not understand why you are in such denial over this; you've had a good career. Your career has ended. Those of us who had hoped to have a career half as good as yours are not happy that you are resistant to get your azz off property. I've tried the crowbar to your posterior to vacate your current seat; you now deserve a crowbar to your cranium case. I can't believe that you lack the intelligence to realize that you will be retiring very, very soon. Truly sad.

Right on.
 
As I have always said, this change will come in a way no one is expecting. Things are moving very fast on the change.

Andy: To answer your question about furlough, I was furloughed twice for 4-years and during that time ALPA was trying to change the rule. Their actions really didn't bother me.

Now lets talk about you and how tough it is. You have just accepted recall to only go on militry leave. This is all part of your plan to become a two career double dipper that takes advantage of the military LOA laws. And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.
 
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Correction UF... you're retiring. You're not getting fired. Fired means you no longer get any benefits and your ties to your old job are severed. That's not the case here.
 
As I have always said, this change will come in a way no one is expecting. Things are moving very fast on the change.

Andy: To answer your question about furlough, I was furloughed twice for 4-years and during that time ALPA was trying to change the rule. Their actions really didn't bother me.

Now lets talk about you and how tough it is. You have just accepted recall to only go on militry leave. This is all part of your plan to become a two career double dipper that takes advantage of the military LOA laws. And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.

From your postings, I'd say the most likely grounds for firing would be for attitude, not age.

PIPE
 
Correction UF... you're retiring. You're not getting fired. Fired means you no longer get any benefits and your ties to your old job are severed. That's not the case here.

Fired means that your employment is ended against your will.

Retiring is generally ending your employment on your own terms or when you are no longer capable of doing the job.
 
Just came back to this thread after a long and happy absence. If anyone's interested, here's my score:

Andy ... you da man! Thanks for your military service. Hang in there my friend ... this will all be a distant fuzzy memory soon enough!

UF ... you are still an A$$HOLE! 1/29 can't come soon enough for pompous arrogant dorks like yourself. Was that really you with that whiny little kid voice telling Marion you were going to end up on food stamps if you couldn't work another 5 years? God almighty you are a tool!

Prussian ... sorry, but you too are a dork for not figuring out the above!

Flopgut ... great use of your cranium! I like your comments.

pilotyip ... for the love of baby jesus .. get a freakin' degree will ya! Another old geezer with a marginal career and terrible advice for the youngsters.

Freight Dog ... right on brother!

BBB
 
Fired means that your employment is ended against your will.

Retiring is generally ending your employment on your own terms or when you are no longer capable of doing the job.

That is absolutely, 100% retarded. There's just no other word for it.

So you agree that UF is being fired? I guess he won't get any of his benefits? Nobody that gets fired gets benefits.

Retiring, according to you, is ending your employment when you are no longer capable of doing your job. Why don't you just prove my point for me??
That is exactly what the UF's and Klakos of the world would do if left to their own devices. They would fly until they felt that they were incapable of doing their job. Problem is, they would be the last two people on the freaking globe to recognize that they needed to hang it up.

PIPE
 
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BBB: I don't often agree with your posts but that was one of the best I have read on here in a long time.

Nice summation of the players and the issues!

I would also like to add my thanks to Andy for all the info over the past several months.

FJ
 
Fired means that your employment is ended against your will.

Retiring is generally ending your employment on your own terms or when you are no longer capable of doing the job.

At 60, you're no longer capable of doing the job. That's the rule, it would be NO different at 65, 70 or any age.

Other professional employment endeavors usually provide for a certain earnings level upon completion of extensive education and training. Many trades "break out" upon completion of a prescribed cirriculum. In either case, how much you make post trng/education is less a function of how long you've been doing it, and more a function of how hard you work. Airline pilots don't do that. Seniority dictates that in our profession you wait decades past what is normal in other professions for your chance at the best dollars and lifestyle. And I think most of us are fine with that, except when one small group steps out and wants to take more and screw everyone else! Add that to the: one bad contract, merger, BK, recession, strike, etc and we're rolled back to zero deal, It's simply too much to ask to change retirement age.
 
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As I have always said, this change will come in a way no one is expecting. Things are moving very fast on the change.

Andy: To answer your question about furlough, I was furloughed twice for 4-years and during that time ALPA was trying to change the rule. Their actions really didn't bother me.

Now lets talk about you and how tough it is. You have just accepted recall to only go on militry leave. This is all part of your plan to become a two career double dipper that takes advantage of the military LOA laws. And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.

I'm sure Andy would rather the military not be the forte of his career these days. He's got Whiteford's failed "save the A fund" crusade to thank (in part) for that! Now you want to exile him longer with your "save UndauntedFlyers' light airplane and comfortable lifestyle" crusade!

Yeah.....Military leave is such a hustle! It's not like there are ever any wars or anything?!
 
That is absolutely, 100% retarded. There's just no other word for it.

So you agree that UF is being fired? I guess he won't get any of his benefits? Nobody that gets fired gets benefits.

Retiring, according to you, is ending your employment when you are no longer capable of doing your job. Why don't you just prove my point for me??
That is exactly what the UF's and Klakos of the world would do if left to their own devices. They would fly until they felt that they were incapable of doing their job. Problem is, they would be the last two people on the freaking globe to recognize that they needed to hang it up.

PIPE

If you choose to resort to childish namecalling, I believe that you have only identified yourself as challenged.

If one cannot do the job they should retire, if not be fired. A baseless, government mandated end to one's career is not retirement. Benefits in retirement are not guaranteed nor are they consistent from carrier to carrier. You seem to know UF and Klako well enough to Judge them quite harshly. For all I know you have spent a good deal of time with both and those judgements may be warranted. But you are far from capable of determining the values and motivations of all who are pro change.
 
Now lets talk about you and how tough it is. You have just accepted recall to only go on militry leave. This is all part of your plan to become a two career double dipper that takes advantage of the military LOA laws. And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.

You continue to show what an arrogant, ignorant, pompous a$$ you are.

You should be ashamed of yourself and you should apologize for these remarks. I think you should also thank Andy for his service, as well as all of your fellow crewmembers who "double dip" by serving in the military.

You've really been showing your true colors lately UF, and you would really do this industry a huge favor by just going away.
 
At 60, you're no longer capable of doing the job. That's the rule, it would be NO different at 65, 70 or any age.

Poor argument. If you can pass the medical and the proficiency and line checks, you are obviously capable. There is just an bogus rule that mandates that your employment is terminated at age 60, which is in debate. I will partially agree with your "NO difference at 65 and 70", but I am certain that most would go out on their own terms at or before 65.

If the pilot can no longer do the job, his/her fellow pilots must speak up, regardless if they are 25 or 60+.
 

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