AA - not good news

[publisher]

points

As to the $350k, I think that is the high on United 747 with xxx years etc, I was not trying to indicate that it was anything but one end of the spectrum.

On SWA, there are a lot of areas where they are efficient besides any pay issues. Obviously if their 737 pay was that bad, people would not fly for them. On the other hand, when times are tough like now, there efficiency including pay rates enable them to keep going without the trama everyone else is going through.

Some would suggest the approach that they should be dragged to the same pay rates and the same inefficiencies that plgue everyone else.

Perhaps the alternative would be better for all, making the other airlines more like Southwest. The customers and investors would prefer that.

 

[4850JD]

Southwest really needs to pick up the pace for pilot pay or else we're all going to see major pay cuts for a long time to come. SWA flies in a lot of the same markets as AMR and that is an advantage they have over AMR, pay, retirement, productivity (work rules).

Where is John Stosell? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

It seems like everyone now wants to blame Southwest for something........anything......... since their [your] carrier is going down the toilet faster than a 20-pounder.

When you boys over at UAL, DAL, et al. signed those ridiculous contracts with massive pay raises we all knew it was a matter of time before the crap hit. Let me tell you - I am about as Pro-Union as they come; I served on my LEC at my previous carrier but sometimes you have to see the forest through the trees.

The simple fact of the matter is that ALPA and APA have absolutely NO leadership; neither in the MEC level or National!!! How long have the regional counterparts of the majors been warning the mainline guys that the RJ's were a force to be reckoned with? APA wanted nothing to do with Eagle!!! DAL wanted nothing to do with Comair!!! Now they all want the large RJ's to save their jobs.

Why are you so outraged with SWA pay yet you remain silent on the pay for the guys at Eagle, ASA, Comair, etc..... Eagle has been classified as a Major by DOT (has for a long time) but no one seems to have a problem with those guy making $20-something an hour!!! It’s a simple fact that arrogance and greed have skewed the leadership and the subsequent rank-n-file causing a cancerous tumor on this industry.

 

[Mach92]

Well said >>>> 4850JD

 

[beytzim]

The airline industry is pretty f'ed up!

I've flown with United and USAir forloughees. Both of them 'were' starting their third year pay (as F/Os on Airbusses) and making $10,000 a month. That is ridiculous. 120k for a 3rd yr FO flying 15 days a month, now c'mon. In an effort to always 'one-up' a competitors airlines' pay, the unions always try to pay higher and higher. When does it stop? When a 777 captain makes 500k?, 700k? No! when an airline files Ch.11!

The airline industry needed to change when RJs came out. This is just its way of doing things - Ch.11 or layoffs. I was on a flight a couple of weeks ago on a DL 767-400 nonstop, unrefuled from ATL to SAV - and Delta is supposed to be one of the better ones!

The future is very clear to me: The few surviving majors are only going to have wide-bodies. The 'regionals', which are really majors will be flying RJs (50,70 and 90 seaters). The SWs and JBs will be there flying their own niche in between the wide-bodies and RJs. The regionals will have peanuts and sodas as they do now. The majors will actually have food - because most flights will be int'l or intercontinental.

Pay among the majors will stay the same as it is now. Pay for the regionals will be increase tremendously. Senior captains will make low six figures.

That's the future. You can choose to embrace it or deny it. Nevertheless, it will happen.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Wrong

This is starting to sound similar to what Baseball is going through. MLB wants cheaper labor and the players are fighting them. The only difference between players and pilots is that the players are unified. Pilots as a whole will never be unified. Why, because of low time pilots that think 10K a month is ridiculous and will work for much less. After years of fighting our way through the “trenches” to gain the experience to be the responsible person to carry 200 people in flight, why we should be paid less than police officers and firefighters. Why shouldn’t we want to live comfortably, why are some pilots forcing our industry (professional pilots) to become nothing more than a blue collar machine operators. After all the training and simulators we’ve endured. 10K a month is the least we should be paid!!

 

[Aplus9]

Nice post Beytzim.

Disco,

Come on, make less than Police or Fire fighters? Do you know any police or fire fighters? I do. You can't believe that making 10k a month after 3 years as an F/O is logical. I'm for more pay, but let's keep it real.


Swimming and liking it.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Some poilce officers and firefighters do make more. With overtime, combined with leave while on detail, yes they can make a lot, and should. Up here in my next of the woods, there was an article about a state trooper that made $250,000. You say that not every civil servent makes that much, your right, but I'll bet many third year police and firefighters are making more than third year RJ FO pay.

So where do you draw the line? What should a third year FO make? I'd rather have the experience in the flight deck rather than some time building 20 something year old pud knocker, who paid for training, who was hired because he's the only one who would accept such low pay. Which is where we are headed.

I won't accept it, take me off the interview list. You can have the 20K a year job. I'm calling truckmasters.

 

[LilCap]

Aplus9, beytzim,

I agree with CCDiscoB. You're forgetting that 3rd year FO means, 10 year+ pilot. 2 years flight instructing, 2 years flying freight, maybe 3 years at a commuter or regional. Or could be 6 or 7 years in the military. My friends that are fire fighters or police officers do at least that well after 10 years. And, in our state can retire at 50 with more than 80% of their salary... not too bad.

I've been to funerals of fellow pilots who were trying to get enough time for that coveted FO position (not the safest job in the world either).

One final thought, no disrespect to the many others who lost their lives on 9/11, but don't forget who was the first on the scene.

 

[#21]

No U.S. based aircarrier has ever gone into bankruptcy due to its payroll being too high.

I'll take every dime that I have earned because:

1) It's a life-long commitment.

2) You never know what tomorrow might bring.

3) I **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** deserve it.


. . .thanks for letting me vent a little . . .


Keep the faith . . .fly safe.

 

[MAK]

There's a reason...

... pilots at the majors demand such high pay rates. If they agreed to work for less, there is NO guarantee that management will put away the savings for a "rainy day". IOW, you can't buy job security with a cheaper contract. I'd rather take the money out of management's hands and save it in the bank myself rather than let them pi$$ it away on dot-com ventures, airline aquisitions, and fare-wars.

Does anyone think, for instance, if UAL pilots agreed to smaller pay raises in 2000, UAL would have more cash on hand now?? No way, they would have squadered it on more stupid ideas.
At least I put a lot of that money in the bank, where it will do some good.

FedEx and SWA have an advantage many other airlines don't. They are/were run by their founder. These men cared about their airline and its employees because the companny was their "baby". There was a certain pride in ownership of something they created with their own blood sweat and tears.

Can any other large airlines say the same? Look at all the bonehead CEO's that were simply there to rape the company for all it was worth and take off after a few years of "hard" work. Look at how much time was spent in the boardroom cutting deals instead of running the airline. They didn't give a $h1t about the airline or its employees. All they did was pack their golden parachutes with as much as they could bail out with.

Hence, the situation many airlines are in now. It's every man/woman for himself. I see 59 year old Captains max'ing out their hours every month to "make up" for all the compensation they lost over the last 30 years of furloughs, bankrupcies, ESOP's, etc. I see junior 1st Officers doing the same because they feel they're on the street next month and need to build a war chest.

I can understand when the ignorant public claims airline pilots make too much money, but when I hear it from other pilots I am shocked. Maybe you think if the majors paid their 747/777 Captains less, then you would be paid more, huh?? I can tell you that isn't going to happen. The airlines would like to pay ALL of us less, not redistribute the wealth.

The more ANY pilot gets paid, the better for all pilots. The less one gets paid, the worse for all.