AA may not merge with anyone?

[100 c.i.]

I say bring the mergers on. Without a merger I'll be on the street for another 3 years, and sitting in a crashpad on reserve for another 3 years with no career expections. Nother to loose! Besides I,ll have a better chance to fly with NonNatives.

 

[XTW]

OK. One more time. TWA was NOT in the "midst" of its third bankruptcy. The bankruptcy was a pre-packaged arrangement designed to allow AA to acquire the assets without having to deal with pesky "contracts" that AA did'nt want to assume. The whole arrangement was planned out months in advance, and TWA used its cash on hand to pay down debt prior to the acquisition unneccessarily. It also gave AA the chapter 1113 hammer that was later used against the rest of the industrys pilots.
quote]




Please don't confuse this pissing contest with facts.


X

 

[SlipperyPete]

TWAers and Renoers what you think about forming an alpa alliance with doh for us and a staple (Ka-Klunk) for the nAAtives

You funny guy! A "TWAers" alliance with ALPA. HA HA HA. That's a good one!

 

[brainhurts]

Can the NWA name be saved and be exclusively used on pacific routes by American? In other words, AMR buys NWA and keeps the NWA name on a small company dedicated to pacific ops? Even keep the planes painted in AMR colors with that little sign in small print: Operated by NWA.
I could (sadly) see this being done.

 

[aa73]

Hello Lucky,
AA-(1973) stands for his birthdate I am sure. A true aahole punk and poster child of the APA. He was in high school dreaming of being a pilot when his TWA counterparts were flying the world (on property). APA logic and morals made him senior in our merger and he displaced captains. Lets hope NWA leads the dance and you can right a wrong.
Mach8

Hello, Mach8,

Yes, I was born in 1973. Are you in love with me? You really are interested in my personal life!

Takes an a-hole to know an a-hole, loser.

P.S. You were most definitely *NOT* on AA property in the late 80s. Back on your medication, boy.

73

 

[aa73]

Sorry. What I meant to say was AMR's attitude is going to stunt its potential. AMR is either going to be small as a result of not merging or if AMR does merge it will need to work at being "fair and equitable" in the merge in order to get the benefit of the merge.

AA73 and others like him need to change their attitudes or their going to hurt AMR's future.

People run airlines. It is a service industry. If the people can not get along, the airline does not work regardless of the route network, type of aircraft, money in the bank, etc.

OK, lucky, what attitude do you suggest I change? I'm one of the very few AA pilots who do NOT support a staple in any merger/acquisition. AAflyer is another. I've mentioned this many times on this board. Unless I'm dealing with psycho-freak loser Mach8, I've been very specific in letting everyone know my true stance with any future deals - NO STAPLING. So if you think attitudes need to change, you need to refer to most other AA pilots who do support a staple - not me.

 

[stwjet]

What does APA do if it does not staple in the next merger??? Play in court for the next 50 years over DFR issues... APA and AA have laid the foundation for all mergers in the future... How unfortuneate it is..... Not sure Aviation 101 mentioned anything like that for the Boys in the suits.
Cheers

 

[aa73]

What does APA do if it does not staple in the next merger??? Play in court for the next 50 years over DFR issues... APA and AA have laid the foundation for all mergers in the future... How unfortuneate it is..... Not sure Aviation 101 mentioned anything like that for the Boys in the suits.
Cheers

I agree 100%. However, I must point out that APA/AA did not lay the foundation of stapling - SWA did with Morris in 1994. Our first "stapler" deal was with Reno in 1998. That said, though, I'll never agree that stapling is fair.

 

[G4G5]

And ALPA established the "fair" integration of a potentially bankrupt carrier, when they came up with the Delta/Pan Am integration. Which ironically is exactly what the APA did with TWA, yet people go ballistic on the APA.

The APA is not smart enough to come up this this on their own. They looked at what ALPA had already come up and with what the courts had already accepted and then copied it. If their is any NWA or Delta asset purchases I would expect the very same integration.

 

[John Galt]

Crap....I just ran out of popcorn.

 

[Vne]

73

NO STAPLING.

Do you post on C&R with your real name and sing the praises of your position? Did you oppose the latest APA resolution? Are you the lone voice in the wilderness?
Its easy to oppose after the fact. Your association is clear where they stand. IMO Its(sic APA resolution regarding future acquisitions) a detriment to the future of the profession.

 

[Draginass]

An AA/NWA merger (a "true" merger) would be an integration nightmare. I think Arpey and the dunces in Centerport have finally come to realize that. AA's not in great shape itself, and NWA is even much worse with employee relations in the toilet and a scab maintenance force.

One thing I think we all can agree upon . . . . the acquisition of TWA was not a good deal for anybody except greedy execs at the top. AA should have continued on its own and TWA should have been allowed to sink or swim on its own. TWA ALPA should have killed the deal by refusing to abrogate their contract merger language. Carty had no authority or power to promise anything when it came to integration language. He knew that and TWA ALPA knew it.

I was deadset against acquiring TWA then and now. It was a very expensive and high risk deal cut just when it was obvious that the economy was stumbling. As far as the champaign corks popping, I remember seeing a newsfilm of a gathering of TWA employees whooping and jumping up and down when the official announcement was made. Fear and apprehension filled the AA crew rooms. With regards to numbers, AA is basically back to where it was before the merger.

Like the TWA guys, I wish the entire deal had been not been done at all.

 

[AAflyer]

In the unlikely event of nwa buying aa as a mid seniortiy nwa pilot I will do everythinhg in my power(I am very active in the union)to get the twas and renos their doh and staple the nAAtives as that is their policy or at least fence them to the pos dc9-80s as the 76/77s are replaced with 787s. Fyi some/all jumpseats on nwa may not be available to nAAtives as a very disparageing cut and paste from the apa webboard was copied to our nwa board. AAers, while some capts want to deny all aas some are more rationale and will only deny the ones on the list but if anyone knows a LARRY MORALES 767FO MIA PLEASE TELL HIM/HER HE IS PESONA NON GRATA AT NWA AND TO SHOVE HIS KA-PLUNK SWINGLINE UP HIS ASS!

Why don't you do a little research on the staple of RENO. Reno started right after AA started furloughing in the early 90s, I won't even go into the history of what routes they flew, who controlled them and what martketing agreement had they had with AA, I will let you find that out on your own.

However DOH would have put them in roughly the same relative seniority, as we did not hire for many years in the mid 90s. They were placed on at the aquisition date, roughly 6 months after we started hiring, they now hold numerous positions ranginging from 777/FO down to the obvious S80 FO.

Why don't you work on the better treatment of the Republic pilots for a start. Lastly it puts you in a low class to call people out like you did. If you have an issue or would like a message relied to FO Morales why don't you PM one of the AA pilots on the board. However calling him out while post behind a screen name shows what you are made of.

I live in MSP and fly on NWA a lot, and have yet to run into guys like you, thank god.

AAflyer

By the way, I carry many NWA jumpseaters, luckily I will not stoop to your leve and start a jumpseat war. First Jet Blue pilots, and now AA pilots getting denied. Class act, punishing the many for what a handful said.

 

[glasspilot1]

Why don't you work on the better treatment of the Republic pilots for a start.

AAflyer, you better not go there. The NWA/Republic merger is an example of how a seniority integration SHOULD go. DOH and fences. That's how AA/TWA should have gone. So just don't go there.

 

[AAflyer]

AAflyer, you better not go there. The NWA/Republic merger is an example of how a seniority integration SHOULD go. DOH and fences. That's how AA/TWA should have gone. So just don't go there.

Then why so many pissed off people with that?

AA

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

In the unlikely event of nwa buying aa as a mid seniortiy nwa pilot I will do everythinhg in my power(I am very active in the union)to get the twas and renos their doh and staple the nAAtives as that is their policy or at least fence them to the pos dc9-80s as the 76/77s are replaced with 787s. Fyi some/all jumpseats on nwa may not be available to nAAtives as a very disparageing cut and paste from the apa webboard was copied to our nwa board.

Cobraair75drvr,

I know how emotions can run high during the recent merger frenzy. Everyone is concerned about their jobs, retaining their seniority number, and placement. In AA’s history of mergers and acquisitions, there have been feathers and some staples, but it was totally depended on the terms of the deal, the pilot’s relative seniority, and career expectations.

There were many mistakes made in our Supp CC agreement since no one envisioned a 9/11 occurrence. It was made for a growing airline – not a shrinking one. Hopefully, we all will be a lot smarter in any future mergers.

An AA - NWA is still a long shot. It’s way too early to get both sides fired up over a couple of stupid statements made by private parties. Using each other’s jumpseat is a great deal to both sides. Trying to destroy that good deal will benefit no one and will have no influence on any potential seniority agreement. The only pilots hurt will be the ones trying to get to work.

The real career destroyer is Age 65. Age 65 only benefits the guys at the top. AA is recalling now, but that all stops if the retirement age is raised.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[aa73]

73



Do you post on C&R with your real name and sing the praises of your position? Did you oppose the latest APA resolution? Are you the lone voice in the wilderness?
Its easy to oppose after the fact. Your association is clear where they stand. IMO Its(sic APA resolution regarding future acquisitions) a detriment to the future of the profession.

Yes, I absolutely post with my real name on C&R. And I just started a thread over there last week on this very subject. And I got absolutely railroaded with opposition.

That's why I mentioned earlier that AAflyer and I are a pretty rare specimen amongst the ranks.

Regarding future acquisitions: You folks must remember that AA/APA are not alone in pondering a full staple. Has it ever occured to you that if SWA buys someone out, the same exact thing happens? Heck, they may not even be offered a job at SWA! (reference Muse/TranStar in '86). Or if they are offered a job, how about a year's probation! (Morris.)

So if SWA buys anyone and imposes a full staple, are you guys gonna be giving them $hit, too?

 

[XTW]

Cobraair75drvr,


There were many mistakes made in our Supp CC agreement since no one envisioned a 9/11 occurrence. It was made for a growing airline – not a shrinking one. Hopefully, we all will be a lot smarter in any future mergers.

Actually, it does take into account a downturn. I will have to look to find the appropriate reference. I can't remember if it is in the transition agreement or in the preamble to Supp. CC.

X

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Actually, it does take into account a downturn. I will have to look to find the appropriate reference. I can't remember if it is in the transition agreement or in the preamble to Supp. CC.

X

I know it does too. The only problem is that 99% of the thought went into a growing airline and the rest into a shrinking one.

The point I am trying to make is that it is way too early to start tearing into each other and having pilots kicked off each other’s jumpseats. We don’t even know if a deal is going through, yet there are some that are already going to battle stations.

Everyone needs to take a deep breathe and not ruin a good deal between our airlines.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[aa73]

Fyi some/all jumpseats on nwa may not be available to nAAtives as a very disparageing cut and paste from the apa webboard was copied to our nwa board.

In case you were wondering, this type of talk goes on all over private union boards during merger speculation. Remember the US/UAL deal when USAir guys were asking for their 747-400 manuals? All over the USAir ALPA board, UAL ALPA board, and the internet.

As previously mentioned, using the j/s as a weapon will only serve to destroy a perk EVERY airline pilot enjoys.

 

[CSY Mon]

You are truly a punk and perfectly represent the silver spoon spoiled little brat APA poster child. The Hitler Youth as we call it.

Why is it the ex TWA guys always start the name calling and mud slinging games?

What the hell did you guys expect in the first place?
Did you think APA was going to hand you the good numbers and the good seats on a silver platter, then staple themselfes on the bottom of the list?

If you wanted a better number with AA, you should have applied for the job a few years earlier. If you bet on the wrong horse, don't come whining later.
Nobody owes you sh!t.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Why don't you do a little research on the staple of RENO. Reno started right after AA started furloughing in the early 90s, I won't even go into the history of what routes they flew, who controlled them and what martketing agreement had they had with AA, I will let you find that out on your own.

However DOH would have put them in roughly the same relative seniority, as we did not hire for many years in the mid 90s. They were placed on at the aquisition date, roughly 6 months after we started hiring, they now hold numerous positions ranginging from 777/FO down to the obvious S80 FO.

Why don't you work on the better treatment of the Republic pilots for a start. Lastly it puts you in a low class to call people out like you did. If you have an issue or would like a message relied to FO Morales why don't you PM one of the AA pilots on the board. However calling him out while post behind a screen name shows what you are made of.

I live in MSP and fly on NWA a lot, and have yet to run into guys like you, thank god.

AAflyer

By the way, I carry many NWA jumpseaters, luckily I will not stoop to your leve and start a jumpseat war. First Jet Blue pilots, and now AA pilots getting denied. Class act, punishing the many for what a handful said.

I agree with you on everything you say except the treatment of the Republic guys. Roberts screwed both sides by giving each side what they wanted for 20 YEARS.

The jumpseat is not where "possible" "future" "hypothetical" seniority integration will be negotiated. I've flown with NWA for 9 years and I have never seen a CA deny anyone a JS. I hope I never will.

As for FO Morales, he has a emp # of 500,000 or so, so he got hired late 98 or 99. He is hanging by a thread and his comments sound like survival.

If NWA and AA merge(WHAT A FREAKING DISASTER THAT WOULD BE) I am sure that a staple would be out of the question for either side.

 

[JAM-BRO]

TWAers and Renoers what you think about forming an alpa alliance with doh for us and a staple (Ka-Klunk) for the nAAtives in the event of NWA aquireing the nAAzi ******************************s?

Cobra

You need to simmer down a bit. There is nothing to say that NWA/AA is going to happen. Just comments on a private board. I don't commute but the JS is important to everyone.

 

[aa73]

I agree with you on everything you say except the treatment of the Republic guys. Roberts screwed both sides by giving each side what they wanted for 20 YEARS.

The jumpseat is not where "possible" "future" "hypothetical" seniority integration will be negotiated. I've flown with NWA for 9 years and I have never seen a CA deny anyone a JS. I hope I never will.

As for FO Morales, he has a emp # of 500,000 or so, so he got hired late 98 or 99. He is hanging by a thread and his comments sound like survival.

If NWA and AA merge(WHAT A FREAKING DISASTER THAT WOULD BE) I am sure that a staple would be out of the question for either side.

Thanks for a reasonable, well-thought-out post, JamBro. I agree completely. Just so you know, there ARE a few of us that do not agree with a staple.

Regards,
73

 

[Mach8Forest]

Why is it the ex TWA guys always start the name calling and mud slinging games?

What the hell did you guys expect in the first place?
Did you think APA was going to hand you the good numbers and the good seats on a silver platter, then staple themselfes on the bottom of the list?

If you wanted a better number with AA, you should have applied for the job a few years earlier. If you bet on the wrong horse, don't come whining later.
Nobody owes you sh!t.

Most of us TWA pilots did not want anything to do with AA. AA was a mostly domestic narrow body airline with a pilot group that brought us the B scale. A few years before the merger however TWA did have alot of defections in our junior ranks, as AA no doubt looked a lot more stable in the pilots Crystal ball. Remember the 80’s when us now furloughed and stapled TWA captains were hired and punk boy 73 was in High School, popping zits and snapping bra’s. TWA carried more to London a day than AA carried to the whole Continent of Europe. AA would look a lot different today had they not taken our London routes and then everything else.
Remember when this great windfall happened for you AAholes?
You started landing with our hundreds of East coast slots every day. (88 in NY) Do you ask yourself was that an AA slot we just landed with or a TWA slot, who cares right?
We stopped flying all of our Transcons and began dismantling our Intl for AA.
We dismantled our mini hub in SJU (60 flights a day out of SJU) so AA could enjoy its monopoly again in the Carib. TWA according to the Wall street journal became instantly profitable by simply having AA’s credit position on renegotiating our Aircraft leases.
All of our Domiciles and satellites were closed and we were all shoved into STL for AA’s convenience. Then AA cherry picked our STL flying giving much of it to the Hitler Youth.
You wonder why we sling mud? Its bad enough that you AAholes got away with this dismantling of our company, our livelihoods, and the personal affects that followed. I know personally a FA that is not here today as a result of her stapling/job loss and she left behind 2 children. Go ahead and comment on this poor girl and how she should have been stronger. I understand there are quite a few more like this as we had around 25000 + employees.
Its insulting to our trade and humanity to say the least that you don’t understand why we are angry. Some suggest we move on and let go. Who said we have not moved on? Those of us unfairly thrown on the street will never let go of APA’s handling and slashing of OUR JOBS that you stole. We did not expect to take the 777 away from your junior captains in DFW or ORD. However the APA did take our jobs away from us in the name of unionism. The result was no different than a Scab coming off the street. I for one will never quit slinging mud at the AAholes.
As far as you NWA guys go I wish you had been there for us with ALPO national support but I suggest you prepare now. If it’s not AA it will be someone else and APA has set a precedent on how brothers of the piloting trade treat and respect each other. A lot of us including myself were in denial until we found ourselves collecting the $200.00 per week unemployment. I cannot tell you what that transition was like and the resulting affects on my family
Regarding Jump seating I have what some might say a different view. Hard to imagine right 1973? Why give the courtesy or a gift to someone who given the chance will rip your seat and job away from you and not think twice about what it will do to you or your family. I don’t get it and I commuted for 14 years at TWA. When I realized what APA’s intentions were my policy was simple (NO EFFING WAY) I did have one exception to this policy and this occurred on one of my last days on the property. I had as you can imagine a slightly BAD attitude. I had been displaced from the DC9 captain to the 767 Intl to the 757 Domestic to the MD80 all in about a year. A junior AA hole wanted to jump seat with us to RDU. The old OZ captain asked me how I felt about him jump seating. I said that fine with me, he can get on and I will get off. As he paced on the Jet way I learned from the agent that his father was on his deathbed in RDU. We got him to RDU ASAP and with no attitude.
Look in the Rear View Mirror APA members as your cutthroat slashing policy might bite you in the AAss. Bean counters don’t care about your childhood dreams of being an AA, TWA, or NWA pilot for that matter or the sacrifices you made to get there. They don’t care about your career expectations or career fantasy’s. They care about Golden parachutes and the money for the Stockholders. I personally hope NWA buys AA and reshuffles the deck. Good luck to all including you 1973 birthday boy. Maybe they can flow you back to a NW regional jet subsidiary where you belong.
Mach8

 

[pkober]

Why is it the ex TWA guys always start the name calling and mud slinging games?

What the hell did you guys expect in the first place?
Did you think APA was going to hand you the good numbers and the good seats on a silver platter, then staple themselfes on the bottom of the list?

If you wanted a better number with AA, you should have applied for the job a few years earlier. If you bet on the wrong horse, don't come whining later.
Nobody owes you sh!t.

APA didn't owe us anything. They took care of there own. They do owe us all the benifits of the contract now that we are all members of the same union. IE, flowback for ALL APA pilots, not just some TWA pilots. When we became APA they sent us an attachment to the contract showing all the things we don't get. Then we got a letter from Darah (sp.) saying welcome to APA and all the benifits that come along with membership. That was 2001, hopefully things may have changed. We are either full APA members or not. Don't charge us full dues and then say you only get 80% of the contract.

The union that screwed us was ALPA. They were supposed to represent us and they didn't due to conflicting intrests. You would think that the largest airline pilots union in the world would have some resources available to help one of its members.

Hopefully you guys will never decide to join that, ALPA, disfunctional union. Stay by yourself, you are much stronger and a much better union.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Hello Mach 8,

Say, I was probably going to be let back into the airline world by my good friend George Bush. When I do get going and have my new LCC ready to go, would you be interested in a mangement position?

After reading your posts, you would appear to fit in perfectly. Rage, psychosis, delusions, small-man syndrome.....the list goes on. This is beautiful.

I will save a slot for you in the Chief Pilots chair.

If you are still undecided, I will even throw in medical benefits to pay for your Lithium, anti-depressants, and electroshock therapy.

I'll be in touch.

 

[Mach8Forest]

Hello Mach 8,

Say, I was probably going to be let back into the airline world by my good friend George Bush. When I do get going and have my new LCC ready to go, would you be interested in a mangement position?

After reading your posts, you would appear to fit in perfectly. Rage, psychosis, delusions, small-man syndrome.....the list goes on. This is beautiful.

I will save a slot for you in the Chief Pilots chair.

If you are still undecided, I will even throw in medical benefits to pay for your Lithium, anti-depressants, and electroshock therapy.

I'll be in touch.

Management position? (no thanks)
Rage (a little)
psychosis (no)
Delusions (just facts)
Small man syndrome ( don't think so, ask your wife)
List goes on ( yes it does)
Look in the mirror my friend.
Mach8

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Not so fast, Frank....

Say, I was probably going to be let back into the airline world by my good friend George Bush. When I do get going and have my new LCC ready to go, would you be interested in a mangement position?

.....you tried to get back in the business a few years back out of BWI with your "Friendship Airline". Tried to get some government grant money for start up, too. We not only ran you out of town on rail before you set up camp, but Congress banned you from the airlines all together. Your political muscle is non-existant. We won't even need to pick up those cute little watches with the Lorenzo sporting the red cirlce with a line through it. Your day is done, Frankie.

Buh-bye!

 

[AAflyer]

I agree with you on everything you say except the treatment of the Republic guys. Roberts screwed both sides by giving each side what they wanted for 20 YEARS.

The jumpseat is not where "possible" "future" "hypothetical" seniority integration will be negotiated. I've flown with NWA for 9 years and I have never seen a CA deny anyone a JS. I hope I never will.

As for FO Morales, he has a emp # of 500,000 or so, so he got hired late 98 or 99. He is hanging by a thread and his comments sound like survival.

If NWA and AA merge(WHAT A FREAKING DISASTER THAT WOULD BE) I am sure that a staple would be out of the question for either side.

Jam

Thanks fro the response. After it was mentioned I dida search on the integration, could not find anything. If you have some info would you post, of please feel free to PM.

Regards,

AA