9E Wins Race to Bottom

[1.3XVso]

I feel your pain. Colgan pilots with 1/2 my longevity are senior to me. Pinnacle pilots hired in 06-the same. I lose half my seniority while the group 1 XJ pilots get an increase in 14% relative seniority! Now they also get double the money in longevity pay when this thing passes and they will not be down graded to $36 an hour? Typical ALPA bull********************. Nothing mentioned about the hundreds who will be downgraded. Or how about those bull******************** bar graphs they show us being more expensive because of how senior our pilot group is. If that is the case, why is the FO's pay rate being cut so deeply? if we need to be competitive with airlines that dont have 12 year captains, and 8 year FO's, then why is those same airlines 3rd year FO pay better than our 4 year FO pay?

We were lied to when ALPA was negotiating our combined contract in that they said ALPA accountants went over the companies finances and said that the synergy of operations of 3 merged pilot groups would save the company money. They also said that with the merged groups we could expect huge growth. They then used that same lie to give a reason why the colgan pilots were give other pilots seniority. Then during the bankruptcy, they said they were lied to and that the company did not provide all the information to ALPA-but shouldnt accountants know if they are not getting all the information? SHouldnt the lack of information-and then making up crap to tell their pilots in order to get them to vote yes be a lie and be punishable? I am willing to bet that the first pilots Delta hires will be most of the union reps. mark my words. That is a prediction that i am sure will come true within the first year of Delta hiring. That will be the payoff.

That was Ericson wet dream to get in with alpa national. Also that furlough incentive package is a nice carrot for fo's to vote yes.

 

[mesaba13]

I would say that ALPA lying is a little harsh. How could they predict what a mess this merger became? The NWA-Delta merger was seamless and I think many thought ours could be similar The FAA is also no helping us with synergies either.

 

[Flyer1015]

I would say that ALPA lying is a little harsh. How could they predict what a mess this merger became? The NWA-Delta merger was seamless and I think many thought ours could be similar The FAA is also no helping us with synergies either.

What synergies? You mean parking 3 dozen Saabs and expecting to find home in left and right seats on 9E aircraft?

 

[mesaba13]

Or you guys parking 140 200 's and wanting homes in the 900?

 

[Flyer1015]

Or you guys parking 140 200 's and wanting homes in the 900?

Actually, only 41 -900s are original Mesaba. The other 40 are new airplanes to be delivered to 9E Corp, and those are not "Mesaba" airplanes. As of right now, not a single -200 has been parked with the new Delta deal. That will happen over the next two years, but today, fact remains that MANY XJ pilots have found new homes in left and right seats on a 9E RJ instead of the right seat and street, which is what would have happened if they didn't merge.

 

[gojo]

Actually, only 41 -900s are original Mesaba. The other 40 are new airplanes to be delivered to 9E Corp, and those are not "Mesaba" airplanes. As of right now, not a single -200 has been parked with the new Delta deal. That will happen over the next two years, but today, fact remains that MANY XJ pilots have found new homes in left and right seats on a 9E RJ instead of the right seat and street, which is what would have happened if they didn't merge.

Trying to figure out why you care. Aren't you at Virgin? I remember many spirited conversations with you ore sli. Maybe we should invite Murph back for some input : )

 

[skyguy40]

The biggest BS to the TA is the longevity pay....(to me at least). 2000-04 hires at XJ getting the super shaft once again. 6,000 dolla before Obamaized...we lost three to four years seniority with the Bloch award and now once again protecting the lifers....unbelievable! How about throwing some of cash to guys about to be downgraded AGAIN!!!!

I was at a road show this week. I asked and TW explained how he would be losing $16,000 this year. And the $26,000 that he was going to get was to help offset the money he was losing. So he is geting $10,000 more than he is losing.
How many others are even getting what they will lose in income this year? I think the $6,000 that most of us are getting (up to 12 years) is a very small drop in the bucket compared to what we/they will lose this year. Now tell me, does that sound fair or does that sound like ALPA helping themselves?

 

[skyguy40]

That was Ericson wet dream to get in with alpa national. Also that furlough incentive package is a nice carrot for fo's to vote yes.

Not really much for FO's. For most, your schedule will get worse and worse this year and next year you will be on the street. How the package look now? Looking at next year! The carrot is not as good in 2014 as it may "appear" this year.

 

[skyguy40]

I would say that ALPA lying is a little harsh. .

I don't think it was harsh. Seems pretty close. ALPA is full of "half truths and whole lies". Believe what you like, just be carefull how you read the TA and what they (ALPA) tell you it says.

 

[jynxyjericho]

I was at a road show this week. I asked and TW explained how he would be losing $16,000 this year. And the $26,000 that he was going to get was to help offset the money he was losing. So he is geting $10,000 more than he is losing.

It's a 7 year TA, so multiply $16k x 7 then subtract $10K for total loss from TA. He isn't a part of the flow, his best shot would be an interview after all the flow get through so that's- what 3 years? You can do this math if you want to, it's easy.

How many others are even getting what they will lose in income this year? I think the $6,000 that most of us are getting (up to 12 years) is a very small drop in the bucket compared to what we/they will lose this year. Now tell me, does that sound fair or does that sound like ALPA helping themselves?

You are supposing that anyone 12 years and less is not being helped by ALPA evidenced by the tiered payouts. Does that convince anyone except who is actually in the choir with you?

 

[skyguy40]

It's a 7 year TA, so multiply $16k x 7 then subtract $10K for total loss from TA. He isn't a part of the flow, his best shot would be an interview after all the flow get through so that's- what 3 years? You can do this math if you want to, it's easy.


You are supposing that anyone 12 years and less is not being helped by ALPA evidenced by the tiered payouts. Does that convince anyone except who is actually in the choir with you?

Not really sure what your saying here. You sound like your in the MEC. I voted my "No" vote many days ago. Feel free to vote yes if that's the way you feel.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Not really sure what your saying here.

Doesn't suprise me.

Basically my point was this, your argument is flawed which anyone with an elementary school education can discover on their own, with regard to the TW comment.

Secondly, you're only litmus test as to whether the ALPA union and reps are working for the whole pilot group (versus the very senior) is based around the TA payout. Seems lacking in convincibility (evidence) because the predication is based off a small subset of the entire pilot group who will be adversely effected by the TA payout (one small part of the TA). Usually someone, like yourself, making an argument like this online isn't trying to convince any possible yes voters, instead you are simply looking for someone to reinforce you with a "awww heck yeah!"- like a church choir saying "AMEN BROTHA'!"

Also, I am the MEC. Well I would have been, if I could grow the proper length mustache. Instead I got stuck on the interwebs with you.

 

[big shacks]

They should of been looking out for the guys in the middle too. Another downgrade AGAIN! 10 years at XJ...what do we have to show for it? 6,000 dollars...50% paycut.. And a effed up seniority number!!!!!blood boiling... Epic failure!

 

[Flybywire44]

What???? Thanks to 9-11 and resulting mainline BKs, and age 65, the normal progression of regional pilots was disrupted. That left many regional pilots with no choice but to camp out at lower paying regionals, start families, etc. Now that mainline CEOs are seeing 50 seaters for what they are, very uneconomical with high gas, they are starting to park them in droves. Just because the Regionals got big gains in fleets and upgrades during the mainline BK period, doesn't mean it will occur again anytime soon. Mainline getting 88 717s is a GREAT thing for this industry, taking back flying to mainline and bringing higher wages and up to 1000 new jobs with it. Many of your Regional guys "have no idea what it is like at a legacy", but I hope you find out. It's actually GREAT, but you may have to start over in the right seat again, which some have a problem with unfortunately.


Bye Bye---General Lee

An AMR/LCC merger will bring very liberal scope changes.

 

[General Lee]

An AMR/LCC merger will bring very liberal scope changes.

Doubtful. There will be some overlap, and AA's BK doesn't help. There will be some larger RJs due to US's lack of scope, which will be new to AA, but they also have a lot of 50 seaters that need to be parked, and even some 37 seat E135s. $90 a barrel oil makes it just too expensive, since the fewer number of seats probably can't cover the gas costs alone. Then add new fatigue rules and hiring rules that will not help add RJs to the regionals. It will make it tougher, and more expensive.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[big shacks]

How about cancel the Bloch award! Cancel the fu-ker. Seperate these three regionals and let them die if need be. This merger was so embarrassing...and to all Colgan pilots...please never talk about seniority in the pit.....not your fault... But seriously don't bring it up.

 

[ex j-41]

Doubtful. There will be some overlap, and AA's BK doesn't help. There will be some larger RJs due to US's lack of scope, which will be new to AA, but they also have a lot of 50 seaters that need to be parked, and even some 37 seat E135s. $90 a barrel oil makes it just too expensive, since the fewer number of seats probably can't cover the gas costs alone. Then add new fatigue rules and hiring rules that will not help add RJs to the regionals. It will make it tougher, and more expensive.


Bye Bye---General Lee

But MD 80 gas pigs with $200/hr captains are money makers?

 

[General Lee]

But MD 80 gas pigs with $200/hr captains are money makers?

Ever heard of bag fees and change fees? Delta made $2.5 billion last year in ancillary fees, and United made $5.2 billion. It's also about putting the right size airplane on the route. RA just had an interview talking about 50 seaters. He said no more 50 seaters going ATL to Buffalo, rather 50 seaters going from ATL to Albany, GA. The people who make the decisions have obviously looked at the economics. Also, the MD90s coming in from Japan or China supposedly cost around $8-9 million each, including the engines. You could get 4 of those for the price of a new CR9 I believe, and in fact Delta is gettting as many of those that they can. The 717s were also a great deal, mainly paid for by SWA doing refurbs on them. ($100 million worth). Those planes will fly routes 76 seaters are flying now, and could produce 1000 new jobs eventually. That is good for everyone.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[1.3XVso]

Ever heard of bag fees and change fees? Delta made $2.5 billion last year in ancillary fees, and United made $5.2 billion. It's also about putting the right size airplane on the route. RA just had an interview talking about 50 seaters. He said no more 50 seaters going ATL to Buffalo, rather 50 seaters going from ATL to Albany, GA. The people who make the decisions have obviously looked at the economics. Also, the MD90s coming in from Japan or China supposedly cost around $8-9 million each, including the engines. You could get 4 of those for the price of a new CR9 I believe, and in fact Delta is gettting as many of those that they can. The 717s were also a great deal, mainly paid for by SWA doing refurbs on them. ($100 million worth). Those planes will fly routes 76 seaters are flying now, and could produce 1000 new jobs eventually. That is good for everyone.



Bye Bye---General Lee

I thought spirit started all that?

 

[ex j-41]

I wonder who is responsible for buying all those old inefficient 50 seaters?
What kind of bonus did they get for buying 200 inefficient airplanes 10 years ago?
Seems like there are a lot of pinnacle pilots being punished for bad Delta/northwest decisions. Management will just get a fat bonus cheque for their great skills in negotiating a stellar deal with the pilot group.
GL you can talk all you want about how great management is at Delta. But the only people held responsible nowadays are the middle/lower class. And we are being held responsible for the poor upper management decisions.