9E Wins Race to Bottom

[mesaba13]

Agree than they would not of sold us to 9E and created this mess.

 

[xjhawk]

The only reason they are still well below is because they have only been operating about 6 years. If this TA had all captains capped at 6 years and FOs at 3, we would be cheaper than them. Look at the year by year pay rates... Our MEC is feeding a pile of BS saying we are middle of the pack cost wise... That probably is true but that's because everyone very soon will be topped out on both pay scales, not because we will have a better contract than them.

Agree. If they told the truth, it would go something like this. "To make us cost competitive only the senior pilots would have to take a pay cut"

But as it sits, for some reason even the most junior are taking cuts far below the average and yet as we talk the union is saying (using their false bar graphs) that we are above middle of the road. If this was a fair TA to get us cost competitive they would have slashed the captain rates to the 12 year mark eliminating the factor of how senior our pilot group is-they could have even just given the entire pay scale of the FO's a 9% cut keeping the 7-8 rates instead of slashing it to topping out at 4 years.

The way I look at it is there is something going on behind closed doors-using those costing models saying our pilot group is too senior (15-20 year pilots) and then slashing the FO rates the way they did is unacceptable. I like to think of what old Ronnie used to say. Trust but verify. In this case-I would like to trust, but I cannot verify as they statistics my own union give me are lies.

I can be very specific on the examples of the lies

05' XJ contract-they are still saying the captains got a less of a raise than the FO's got-using only percentages as their proof. But when the math is done, the captains still generally got more money (hard spendable dollars) per hour raise than the FO's.

the Pinnacle SLI- saying a specific group got a lower relative seniority change than they actually did by using the entire pilot group including new hires in their math formula on one side while on another formula only using active pilots, not the ones furloughed.

 

[big shacks]

The biggest BS to the TA is the longevity pay....(to me at least). 2000-04 hires at XJ getting the super shaft once again. 6,000 dolla before Obamaized...we lost three to four years seniority with the Bloch award and now once again protecting the lifers....unbelievable! How about throwing some of cash to guys about to be downgraded AGAIN!!!!

 

[RJLoser]

Deleted.....

 

[xjhawk]

The biggest BS to the TA is the longevity pay....(to me at least). 2000-04 hires at XJ getting the super shaft once again. 6,000 dolla before Obamaized...we lost three to four years seniority with the Bloch award and now once again protecting the lifers....unbelievable! How about throwing some of cash to guys about to be downgraded AGAIN!!!!

I feel your pain. Colgan pilots with 1/2 my longevity are senior to me. Pinnacle pilots hired in 06-the same. I lose half my seniority while the group 1 XJ pilots get an increase in 14% relative seniority! Now they also get double the money in longevity pay when this thing passes and they will not be down graded to $36 an hour? Typical ALPA bull********************. Nothing mentioned about the hundreds who will be downgraded. Or how about those bull******************** bar graphs they show us being more expensive because of how senior our pilot group is. If that is the case, why is the FO's pay rate being cut so deeply? if we need to be competitive with airlines that dont have 12 year captains, and 8 year FO's, then why is those same airlines 3rd year FO pay better than our 4 year FO pay?

We were lied to when ALPA was negotiating our combined contract in that they said ALPA accountants went over the companies finances and said that the synergy of operations of 3 merged pilot groups would save the company money. They also said that with the merged groups we could expect huge growth. They then used that same lie to give a reason why the colgan pilots were give other pilots seniority. Then during the bankruptcy, they said they were lied to and that the company did not provide all the information to ALPA-but shouldnt accountants know if they are not getting all the information? SHouldnt the lack of information-and then making up crap to tell their pilots in order to get them to vote yes be a lie and be punishable? I am willing to bet that the first pilots Delta hires will be most of the union reps. mark my words. That is a prediction that i am sure will come true within the first year of Delta hiring. That will be the payoff.

 

[1.3XVso]

I feel your pain. Colgan pilots with 1/2 my longevity are senior to me. Pinnacle pilots hired in 06-the same. I lose half my seniority while the group 1 XJ pilots get an increase in 14% relative seniority! Now they also get double the money in longevity pay when this thing passes and they will not be down graded to $36 an hour? Typical ALPA bull********************. Nothing mentioned about the hundreds who will be downgraded. Or how about those bull******************** bar graphs they show us being more expensive because of how senior our pilot group is. If that is the case, why is the FO's pay rate being cut so deeply? if we need to be competitive with airlines that dont have 12 year captains, and 8 year FO's, then why is those same airlines 3rd year FO pay better than our 4 year FO pay?

We were lied to when ALPA was negotiating our combined contract in that they said ALPA accountants went over the companies finances and said that the synergy of operations of 3 merged pilot groups would save the company money. They also said that with the merged groups we could expect huge growth. They then used that same lie to give a reason why the colgan pilots were give other pilots seniority. Then during the bankruptcy, they said they were lied to and that the company did not provide all the information to ALPA-but shouldnt accountants know if they are not getting all the information? SHouldnt the lack of information-and then making up crap to tell their pilots in order to get them to vote yes be a lie and be punishable? I am willing to bet that the first pilots Delta hires will be most of the union reps. mark my words. That is a prediction that i am sure will come true within the first year of Delta hiring. That will be the payoff.

That was Ericson wet dream to get in with alpa national. Also that furlough incentive package is a nice carrot for fo's to vote yes.

 

[mesaba13]

I would say that ALPA lying is a little harsh. How could they predict what a mess this merger became? The NWA-Delta merger was seamless and I think many thought ours could be similar The FAA is also no helping us with synergies either.

 

[Flyer1015]

I would say that ALPA lying is a little harsh. How could they predict what a mess this merger became? The NWA-Delta merger was seamless and I think many thought ours could be similar The FAA is also no helping us with synergies either.

What synergies? You mean parking 3 dozen Saabs and expecting to find home in left and right seats on 9E aircraft?

 

[mesaba13]

Or you guys parking 140 200 's and wanting homes in the 900?

 

[Flyer1015]

Or you guys parking 140 200 's and wanting homes in the 900?

Actually, only 41 -900s are original Mesaba. The other 40 are new airplanes to be delivered to 9E Corp, and those are not "Mesaba" airplanes. As of right now, not a single -200 has been parked with the new Delta deal. That will happen over the next two years, but today, fact remains that MANY XJ pilots have found new homes in left and right seats on a 9E RJ instead of the right seat and street, which is what would have happened if they didn't merge.

 

[gojo]

Actually, only 41 -900s are original Mesaba. The other 40 are new airplanes to be delivered to 9E Corp, and those are not "Mesaba" airplanes. As of right now, not a single -200 has been parked with the new Delta deal. That will happen over the next two years, but today, fact remains that MANY XJ pilots have found new homes in left and right seats on a 9E RJ instead of the right seat and street, which is what would have happened if they didn't merge.

Trying to figure out why you care. Aren't you at Virgin? I remember many spirited conversations with you ore sli. Maybe we should invite Murph back for some input : )

 

[skyguy40]

The biggest BS to the TA is the longevity pay....(to me at least). 2000-04 hires at XJ getting the super shaft once again. 6,000 dolla before Obamaized...we lost three to four years seniority with the Bloch award and now once again protecting the lifers....unbelievable! How about throwing some of cash to guys about to be downgraded AGAIN!!!!

I was at a road show this week. I asked and TW explained how he would be losing $16,000 this year. And the $26,000 that he was going to get was to help offset the money he was losing. So he is geting $10,000 more than he is losing.
How many others are even getting what they will lose in income this year? I think the $6,000 that most of us are getting (up to 12 years) is a very small drop in the bucket compared to what we/they will lose this year. Now tell me, does that sound fair or does that sound like ALPA helping themselves?

 

[skyguy40]

That was Ericson wet dream to get in with alpa national. Also that furlough incentive package is a nice carrot for fo's to vote yes.

Not really much for FO's. For most, your schedule will get worse and worse this year and next year you will be on the street. How the package look now? Looking at next year! The carrot is not as good in 2014 as it may "appear" this year.

 

[skyguy40]

I would say that ALPA lying is a little harsh. .

I don't think it was harsh. Seems pretty close. ALPA is full of "half truths and whole lies". Believe what you like, just be carefull how you read the TA and what they (ALPA) tell you it says.

 

[jynxyjericho]

I was at a road show this week. I asked and TW explained how he would be losing $16,000 this year. And the $26,000 that he was going to get was to help offset the money he was losing. So he is geting $10,000 more than he is losing.

It's a 7 year TA, so multiply $16k x 7 then subtract $10K for total loss from TA. He isn't a part of the flow, his best shot would be an interview after all the flow get through so that's- what 3 years? You can do this math if you want to, it's easy.

How many others are even getting what they will lose in income this year? I think the $6,000 that most of us are getting (up to 12 years) is a very small drop in the bucket compared to what we/they will lose this year. Now tell me, does that sound fair or does that sound like ALPA helping themselves?

You are supposing that anyone 12 years and less is not being helped by ALPA evidenced by the tiered payouts. Does that convince anyone except who is actually in the choir with you?