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Pervis said:
This speaks volumes as to how clueless you are. From day 2 through 4 (3 days) I put in nearly 40 hrs of duty, blocked nearly 20 hours, and flew 13 legs. Then I was given 17 hrs off, shifting my start time 8 hours to the night shift, and given a trip to the west coast arriving at 0200 PDT. And you think we should just take a nap midday and get 'er done? Your implication is not only insulting, but darn right dangerous. If you don't start to consider the human factor, you're going to kill someone.

It didn't happen, as I did indeed fatigue. But there are those intimidated by that URP report that will, not if, but when, cause a serious situation. Asking anyone to determine their level of fitness when fatigue is involved is like asking a comatose patient to diagnose himself. The insidious nature of fatigue is well documented, and you are gambling with your own career, not to mention my life.

PS: Just to clarify, I would have landed 20 hours after I woke up. Try that some time before you insinuate fatigue calls are unwarranted.
Click to expand...

Lol! Ask Scully to sit in a closet every time you are in the cockpit, staring at a computer screen. If he falls asleep, he is fired. If he looks at a newspaper, he is fired. If he logs on to the Internet, he is fired.

Now, put a guy who doesn't fatigue or take care of himself next to him. This guy wants to get the job done! He slightly smells, and talks a lot to keep himself awake, but he gets the job done!. He is inches away from you for hours, and can't be shut up.

Shift his time zone from his normal by 3 or 4, then back again, alternating daytime wake ups to nighttime wake ups.

Now for 5 minutes for every hour (takeoff and landing) or so, give him small reactions tests. If he fails one of them, he is shot in the head. Dead.

Every time he sees something that could save money, he has to try and call the company. Whenever he calls the company, he is berated, and told that he is not working hard enough. Everyone who actually messed up, is now gunning for him. If he does not save the company money, he actually wants NJ to fail, cause out shareholders deserve a 6 percent profit, even though the 780 million they paid for the company has been paid back for years.

All this while, we give him the Carb and sugar heavy diet we are exposed too. Shift his time zones, have him keep his family life in order by cell phone. Then see how he feels about those insinuated "horrible pilots when they feel they are unsafe.

Now, after all this, you have a camera watching you. If you do not present a professional appearance, you can be called on to explain why, and possibly terminated.

Now listen to Him bitch about the guy who had 15 hours off and fatigued.

He wouldn't, cause he would be a pilot.

You know what? Fuk you. Stay in the dark, we will keep our passengers and us safe and you can share in the profit.

Sincerely.......
FUK YOU
 
Don't mince words amigo. Tell us how you really feel...



But I kinda have to agree.
 
Pervis said:
This speaks volumes as to how clueless you are. From day 2 through 4 (3 days) I put in nearly 40 hrs of duty, blocked nearly 20 hours, and flew 13 legs. Then I was given 17 hrs off, shifting my start time 8 hours to the night shift, and given a trip to the west coast arriving at 0200 PDT. And you think we should just take a nap midday and get 'er done? Your implication is not only insulting, but darn right dangerous. If you don't start to consider the human factor, you're going to kill someone.

It didn't happen, as I did indeed fatigue. But there are those intimidated by that URP report that will, not if, but when, cause a serious situation. Asking anyone to determine their level of fitness when fatigue is involved is like asking a comatose patient to diagnose himself. The insidious nature of fatigue is well documented, and you are gambling with your own career, not to mention my life.

PS: Just to clarify, I would have landed 20 hours after I woke up. Try that some time before you insinuate fatigue calls are unwarranted. All the while worried about how cold your coffee gets while sitting behind your computer.
Click to expand...


That's fine, that's what the fatigue policy is there for. I've never actually seen the URP report, so I have no idea what it says, but hopefully they're gathering some sort of data.

And with trips that late I'm sure there was a backup plan or 2 in place if something were to go wrong with your day. Maybe one of those guys who thought it was stupid or wasteful or punitive to be showing so late in the day with no immediate plans on their brief was your backup plan.

Never said EVERY fatigue call is unwarranted, as in this case it would seem to be very much warranted and an unscheduled business like ours needs a policy on it, just that some are hard to understand. The last day example I provided had around the same showtime (+/- 90 minutes, each day with 11+hrs rest each night) for the last 3 days of the tour. Had brief to go home, something changed and needed to do a trip before travel, saw new brief, fatigued just before ferrying an hour after showtime. My question is if this person was actually too tired to fly, why was the call made 10 minutes before takeoff and not upon receiving the new brief an hour earlier? Can any science predict when someone just doesn't to to work...period?

PS: if any incident/accident were to occur due to a fatigue issue, that's on the pilot, not the schedule they had for the day. With an unquestioned policy like ours, no pilot should ever be flying tired. And I hate coffee.
 
msculley6905 said:
My question is if this person was actually too tired to fly, why was the call made 10 minutes before takeoff and not upon receiving the new brief an hour earlier? Can any science predict when someone just doesn't to to work...period?

PS: if any incident/accident were to occur due to a fatigue issue, that's on the pilot, not the schedule they had for the day. With an unquestioned policy like ours, no pilot should ever be flying tired. And I hate coffee.
Click to expand...

Who knows what happened before said pilot woke up for duty. It's not like trudging through the day after a rough night and attending your computer station. You have no idea what is involved with managing a large aircraft with the dynamics involved, in three dimensions, much less all the other hats we have to wear due to baffoons missmanaging transportation, food, paperwork, maintenance, etc. They sit on the ground while we move this show through the air in an extremely hostile environment.

As far as "that's on the pilot"-BS. Most will go above and beyond, as that is the personality of pilots. The trouble is, issues that present themselves at mach .92 take a much sharper mind than your key stroke or mouse movement, thus requiring a far greater level of attention throughout the flight. You will never understand that without an adequate frame of reference. I've done both. Have you? No, I didn't think so. If you had, you'd know what I was refering to and would not make such ignorant remarks. Matrixes have no place at 41,000 feet.
 
CE750Driver said:
Lol! Ask Scully to sit in a closet every time you are in the cockpit, staring at a computer screen. If he falls asleep, he is fired. If he looks at a newspaper, he is fired. If he logs on to the Internet, he is fired.

Now, put a guy who doesn't fatigue or take care of himself next to him. This guy wants to get the job done! He slightly smells, and talks a lot to keep himself awake, but he gets the job done!. He is inches away from you for hours, and can't be shut up.

Shift his time zone from his normal by 3 or 4, then back again, alternating daytime wake ups to nighttime wake ups.

Now for 5 minutes for every hour (takeoff and landing) or so, give him small reactions tests. If he fails one of them, he is shot in the head. Dead.

Every time he sees something that could save money, he has to try and call the company. Whenever he calls the company, he is berated, and told that he is not working hard enough. Everyone who actually messed up, is now gunning for him. If he does not save the company money, he actually wants NJ to fail, cause out shareholders deserve a 6 percent profit, even though the 780 million they paid for the company has been paid back for years.

All this while, we give him the Carb and sugar heavy diet we are exposed too. Shift his time zones, have him keep his family life in order by cell phone. Then see how he feels about those insinuated "horrible pilots when they feel they are unsafe.

Now, after all this, you have a camera watching you. If you do not present a professional appearance, you can be called on to explain why, and possibly terminated.

Now listen to Him bitch about the guy who had 15 hours off and fatigued.

He wouldn't, cause he would be a pilot.

You know what? Fuk you. Stay in the dark, we will keep our passengers and us safe and you can share in the profit.

Sincerely.......
FUK YOU
Click to expand...

Wow...my own personally directed rant after < 30 posts.

Step back from the edge bud. Only 1 of your over-dramatic gripes pertains to scheduling, so if you're being flip flopped around the clock too much, ask for a change, or fatigue, plain and simple. But don't add complaining about 6 hours of wasted duty time at the hotel to start your day. Or 4 hours of FBO duty after arriving. Because that likely won't be your brief for the whole day.
 
Last edited:
Pervis said:
Who knows what happened before said pilot woke up for duty. It's not like trudging through the day after a rough night and attending your computer station. You have no idea what is involved with managing a large aircraft with the dynamics involved, in three dimensions, much less all the other hats we have to wear due to baffoons missmanaging transportation, food, paperwork, maintenance, etc. They sit on the ground while we move this show through the air in an extremely hostile environment.

As far as "that's on the pilot"-BS. Most will go above and beyond, as that is the personality of pilots. The trouble is, issues that present themselves at mach .92 take a much sharper mind than your key stroke or mouse movement, thus requiring a far greater level of attention throughout the flight. You will never understand that without an adequate frame of reference. I've done both. Have you? No, I didn't think so. If you had, you'd know what I was refering to and would not make such ignorant remarks. Matrixes have no place at 41,000 feet.
Click to expand...

I don't know what could have happened overnight. But what I do know is that whatever may have happened, probably didn't change the feeling they had from showtime until 10 min before takeoff.

And while my job may not be challenging in your eyes, I'll dismiss your underestimation of my job requirements. You've said you've done both. Well I have not seen you sitting next to me anytime in the last 5 years, so your understanding of scheduling is out-dated. After all, I work with the same "baffoons" you speak of. And don't even get me started on metrics.
 
Last edited:
msculley6905 said:
Wow...my own personally directed rant after < 30 posts.

Step back from the edge bud. Only 1 of your over-dramatic gripes pertains to scheduling, so if you're being flip flopped around the clock too much, ask for a change, or fatigue, plain and simple. But don't add complaining about 6 hours of wasted duty time at the hotel to start your day. Or 4 hours of FBO duty after arriving. Because that likely won't be your brief for the whole day.
Click to expand...

That's the response I would expect from a weak dick like yourself.

Fuk you.
 
msculley6905 said:
I don't know what could have happened overnight. But what I do know is that whatever may have happened, probably didn't change the feeling they had from showtime until 10 min before takeoff.

And while my job may not be challenging in your eyes, I'll dismiss your underestimation of my job requirements. You've said you've done both. Well I have not seen you sitting next to me anytime in the last 5 years, so your understanding of scheduling is out-dated. After all, I work with the same "baffoons" you speak of. And don't even get me started on metrics.
Click to expand...

When has your job EVER put your life on the line?

Metrics do not care about death.
 
msculley6905 said:
...Had brief to go home, something changed and needed to do a trip before travel, saw new brief, fatigued just before ferrying an hour after showtime. My question is if this person was actually too tired to fly, why was the call made 10 minutes before takeoff and not upon receiving the new brief an hour earlier? Can any science predict when someone just doesn't to to work...period?

PS: if any incident/accident were to occur due to a fatigue issue, that's on the pilot, not the schedule they had for the day. BS :puke: With an unquestioned policy like ours, no pilot should ever be flying tired. And I hate coffee.
Click to expand...


Yeah you're not a brain surgeon, but you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express...

When you do a risk/reward analysis, how fatigued do you have to be not to fly home in a middle seat on your last day? You sleep on the plane, get drooled on and shoved around by your seatmates, and sleep through the snack service. You get home and re-index.

The "astronomical" difference between 60 mins (1 hour) and 10 minutes. :rolleyes:

You get notified and you do the pilot thing - personal & a/c performance considerations, where am I going, what's the weather, etc. After all the prioritized "Go" planning, you slow down and go this isn't going to work, it's BS. I'm not fit to fly. There is a difference between flying an a/c safely and riding in the back...

There is.
 
msculley6905 said:
I don't know what could have happened overnight. But what I do know is that whatever may have happened, probably didn't change the feeling they had from showtime until 10 min before takeoff.

And while my job may not be challenging in your eyes, I'll dismiss your underestimation of my job requirements. You've said you've done both. Well I have not seen you sitting next to me anytime in the last 5 years, so your understanding of scheduling is out-dated. After all, I work with the same "baffoons" you speak of. And don't even get me started on metrics.
Click to expand...

I have done Matrix training, and sat next to you. Matrix long before, and this new one.

Probably screwed a few of your friends.
 
This is getting quite comical.....

Nothing like a scheduler coming onto the msg board and trading jabs with the very people he's entrusted to schedule.... Nope, no animosity or conflict of interest here..

Which one of your supervisors asked you to log in here and debate.. It is an old trick that nearly every pilot at every union company has seen multiple times...... Only thing more obvious is supervisors snooping around ops and eavesdropping on conversations..


Tell your supervisors you all need a new tactic...
 
msculley6905 said:
I do NOT endorse metrics in this business. Not a fan.
Click to expand...

Good. Go back, read my posts, then explain why you cannot understand how a pilot could be fatigued after 15 hours off.

Or, ignore all my questions you weak dick.

You are WD from here on.

Again, answer questions or Fuk Off WD.
 
BentOver said:
This is getting quite comical.....

Nothing like a scheduler coming onto the msg board and trading jabs with the very people he's entrusted to schedule.... Nope, no animosity or conflict of interest here..

Which one of your supervisors asked you to log in here and debate.. It is an old trick that nearly every pilot at every union company has seen multiple times...... Only thing more obvious is supervisors snooping around ops and eavesdropping on conversations..


Tell your supervisors you all need a new tactic...
Click to expand...

I've said nothing bad about the pilots. Got examples? Didn't think so. I don't get paid enough to do extra legwork...they burned that bridge with me a few years ago. Rest assured, I'm not here for them. Believe it or not, I just like to hear your side of the biz. I simply got dragged into this convo once you all started to bash what schedulers do.

What comical is that I'm assumed to be a management stooge / company troll / Russian spy.
 
msculley6905 said:
While keeping the body's clock on the same schedule can be imporant, the need to cover more flights with less assets prohibits that from being something we can do with any sort of regularity. Anyways, plenty of fatigue calls occur that show it's not aways a matter of being too tired for safe flight (fatigue on last day after 15 hrs rest night before, fatigue on evening spares multiple days in a row, etc), but it's never questioned, things get fixed, we move on. This is one of many reasons for big gaps in time from show to go times, or staying onFBO duty after arriving...you know, anything that some of you deem as wasteful/punative scheduling/pilot hating/term of the week.
Click to expand...

Hey WD. What are you implying here?
 
CE750Driver said:
Good. Go back, read my posts, then explain why you cannot understand how a pilot could be fatigued after 15 hours off.

Or, ignore all my questions you weak dick.

You are WD from here on.

Again, answer questions or Fuk Off WD.
Click to expand...

Depends....if a fatigue call is made at or before showtime, that's hard to comprehend. If it's made 10 hrs into a 14 hr day after 15 hrs off, then yes, I can see that.
 
msculley6905 said:
Depends....if a fatigue call is made at or before showtime, that's hard to comprehend. If it's made 10 hrs into a 14 hr day after 15 hrs off, then yes, I can see that.
Click to expand...

So you have NEVER thought you could do something, then, when a life is actually on the line, thought better? Well, you better fly for FlexJet.

Your Ignorance keeps showing.

WD
 
msculley6905 said:
I've said nothing bad about the pilots. Got examples? Didn't think so. I don't get paid enough to do extra legwork...they burned that bridge with me a few years ago. Rest assured, I'm not here for them. Believe it or not, I just like to hear your side of the biz. I simply got dragged into this convo once you all started to bash what schedulers do.

What comical is that I'm assumed to be a management stooge / company troll / Russian spy.
Click to expand...


Yup you just happened to introduce yourself to the FI world on a thread dealing with NJA and they're 10/250 "motto"....

And then have proceeded to interject your thoughts on pilot fatigue calls... Which we all know has been an issue with management for the last few years. And also at a time when sell- offs and extended days appear to be on the rise because of lack of resources. Ie: furloughed pilots.......

And finally say that you are not in bed with management, and are here on your own accord....which in the management play book falls under rule #56... "Deny you work with management. Proclaim how you are just there for the discussion, and by no means have an agenda"

But no, everyone hear believes you because pilots are not that educated or smart enough to see the recurring trends every time a CBA is due to be renegotiated.... It happens every single time at every single company....
 
gunfyter said:
It's ok if you guys ignore me but I suggest we stop posting on this thread. It's out of control.
Click to expand...

I agree. WD asks where he said anything bad about NJ pilots. I quote him, and, he ignores it.

WD, please go away.

We have dealt with you before Mr Weeber.

This is expected.
 
BentOver said:
Yup you just happened to introduce yourself to the FI world on a thread dealing with NJA and they're 10/250 "motto"....

And then have proceeded to interject your thoughts on pilot fatigue calls... Which we all know has been an issue with management for the last few years. And also at a time when sell- offs and extended days appear to be on the rise because of lack of resources. Ie: furloughed pilots.......

And finally say that you are not in bed with management, and are here on your own accord....which in the management play book falls under rule #56... "Deny you work with management. Proclaim how you are just there for the discussion, and by no means have an agenda"

But no, everyone hear believes you because pilots are not that educated or smart enough to see the recurring trends every time a CBA is due to be renegotiated.... It happens every single time at every single company....
Click to expand...

their, not they're...

1) said pilots are due a raise, but don't think 10/250 will happen (not anti-pilot)

2) never spoke negatively of fatigues, in fact stated several times it needs to be an option and is needed in this biz, just trying to understand them better, from a pilots view. (not anti-pilot)

3) whatever helps you sleep at night. Everyone who is not a pilot is not necessarily out to get you
 

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