10/250

[rajflyboy]

to win you have to be aggressive. you have to want it.

being scared and running away from every little problem isnt the way to get 10 and 250. letting everything slide like its no big deal every time.

 

[gret]

Irrelevant.

...and the basis for your observation is exactly what?

 

[gret]

to win you have to be aggressive. you have to want it.

being scared and running away from every little problem isnt the way to get 10 and 250. letting everything slide like its no big deal every time.

Are we playing football or conducting business?

To win in business you have to be smart, level headed, and sometimes an outstanding diplomat….which have not been traits demonstrated by several in this thread.

 

[Praetorian]

I don't know amigo. That seems like a dishonor we should save for a scab.

So a union buster is better than a scab?

After all, in many cases, it's the union buster that creates the scab.

 

[fischman]

So a union buster is better than a scab?

After all, in many cases, it's the union buster that creates the scab.

Ahhh... But the union buster is only doing his job. The scab is the lowest form of humanity. He is the one who selfishly steals off your children's plate to fatten himself. He is the one who is too ignorant to know that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He is the stabber of backs.

Milton wrote that the inner gates of Hell are saved for betrayers and mutineers. THAT is a scab.

 

[fischman]

...and the basis for your observation is exactly what?

You irreverencneness. Exactly.

 

[gunfyter]

Teachers, and many other professionals, have been underpaid for decades also. I would say that a nurse, fireman, or policeman, have greater career risks.

Serious question that I don't know the answer to...How does one determine if they are underpaid?

How? Read the Papers!
This just doesn't fly: Some airline pilots barely make living wage


Many ways to make this determination: Adam Smith's fair lottery is one example.

Now Police Fire Nursing have greater career risks?

I don't think so ... one reason people choose those fields is the Career security. Same with teaching. Very secure careers.

That you post this tells me you have absolutely no sense at all of what it takes to make it in flying.

I seriously doubt anyone would make the personal sacrifices I have made and others have made for most other careers ....

You have NO CLUE ... NO CLUE! What people have done to get here.

Its a long way to the top if you wanna Rock-n-Roll

 

[gret]

How? Read the Papers!
This just doesn't fly: Some airline pilots barely make living wage


Many ways to make this determination: Adam Smith's fair lottery is one example.

Now Police Fire Nursing have greater career risks?

I don't think so ... one reason people choose those fields is the Career security. Same with teaching. Very secure careers.

That you post this tells me you have absolutely no sense at all of what it takes to make it in flying.

The link didn't work so I found the article elsewhere. The article is discussing the low pay of regional pilots which is really bad...no question about it. My question would be is why do people line up to do these jobs at the pay offered? The answer seems obvious that higher paying jobs aren't available and these people should have chosen a different career path. If less supply existed, the salaries would go up quickly. BTW, interns straight out of medical school have to do the same type of apprenticeship at the rate of $13.50 to $15 per hour.

The article was also interesting in that it stated that the maximum average compensation level of airline pilots is $198,625.

I think we may be viewing career risks differently…chasing druggies, getting shot at by looney tunes, or rushing into burning buildings for $65K/year is what I was referring to.

Regarding Adam Smith, I haven’t followed his teachings much since school. I did look him up because I remembered vaguely some of his works and came across a quote which I recall a professor using when discussing Mr. Smith…."the reason that the invisible hand often seems invisible is that it is often not there."

I think we can use this observation when we think somebody is out to take advantage of us.

 

[jonjuan]

Our business is growing.

Says who? Management? I thought their opinions were irrelevant?

 

[jonjuan]

I do not think most professions carry the career risks we carry.

Point? Will an arbitrator care?

 

[hopalong]

Gret,

what do you fly?

 

[gunfyter]

Intern out of medical school...

Now you have a good comparison Doctor -- Pilot.

The odds of success are small ... in Adam's Smith's lottery.

Thats why the compensation for those who are successful must be great.

Similarly the odds of success are small for professional athletes/ movie stars ... thats why their pay is even greater.

I think we may be viewing career risks differently…chasing druggies, getting shot at by looney tunes, or rushing into burning buildings for $65K/year is what I was referring to

Yes you are viewing career risk differently... I am referring to the risk of success/failure in the career... as explained in the large quote from Wealth of Nations I posted earlier.

But getting fired at by small arms, manpad missiles, etc is a little scary too. And if you've never been a flight instructor ...

I sent my son to college ... he's got a BS in mathematics now ... I wish he'd become a Teacher (or a nurse)... his odds of success are near 100%.

But no... he wants to be a pilot. So on top of $80K in student loans ... lets add on another $80K in flight training and then YEARS AND YEARS of below minimum wage while flight instructing so you can then qualify to work for $20K a year at a regional.

Nobody would make the financial sacrifices people make to become pilots ... to become any of the other professions you mentioned. Aviation is a disease.

 

[jetlag7]

....I think we may be viewing career risks differently…chasing druggies, getting shot at by looney tunes, or rushing into burning buildings for $65K/year is what I was referring to....

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

 

[gunfyter]

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

I know dozens.

I have been thinking about this some more:

I have had 3 fires and several engine failures (one while crossing the Atlantic) in my 30 years of flying.

And let me tell you -- you really haven't lived till you've been fired on by Tank Rounds.

 

[gunfyter]

Point? Will an arbitrator care?

My disagreement with Gret is not about that. It's about what makes pilots different than other professions using several points from Adam Smith on the wages of labor. We ARE something special....

As far as an arbitrator ... we must make our case for the best compensation improvements possible and raise the bar for everyone.

But I like that Gret brought up doctors ...

"Don't cheap out on your surgeon OR pilot "
-- Fox business news anchor

 

[gret]

Intern out of medical school...

Now you have a good comparison Doctor -- Pilot.

The odds of success are small ... in Adam's Smith's lottery.

Thats why the compensation for those who are successful must be great.

Similarly the odds of success are small for professional athletes/ movie stars ... thats why their pay is even greater.



Yes you are viewing career risk differently... I am referring to the risk of success/failure in the career... as explained in the large quote from Wealth of Nations I posted earlier.

But getting fired at by small arms, manpad missiles, etc is a little scary too. And if you've never been a flight instructor ...

I sent my son to college ... he's got a BS in mathematics now ... I wish he'd become a Teacher (or a nurse)... his odds of success are near 100%.

But no... he wants to be a pilot. So on top of $80K in student loans ... lets add on another $80K in flight training and then YEARS AND YEARS of below minimum wage while flight instructing so you can then qualify to work for $20K a year at a regional.

Nobody would make the financial sacrifices people make to become pilots ... to become any of the other professions you mentioned. Aviation is a disease.

Good luck to gunfyter junior. If he is good at math, get him into engineering...we need 'em and they make the big bucks! Convince him that aeronautical engineering is just like being pilot.

Don't misunderstand me, I know all to well that the effort and financial commitments to become a pilot are huge and I have tremendous respect for those that have paid their dues. It is too bad the economics of the industry can't support the compensation expectations at the higher end of the scale.

 

[gret]

THE DEADLIEST JOBS in the WORLD

1. Commercial fishermen - 121.2 deaths per 100,000 workers
2. Loggers - 102.4 deaths per 100,000 workers
3. PILOTS - 57.0 deaths per 100,000 workers

Although dangerous jobs, firemen and police officers don't even make the top ten.

Walk up to any professional pilot and ask them if they personally know someone who has died pursuing this career -- I have a feeling you'll be surprised at the number they tell you....

Saw that headline a couple of weeks ago and said gosh...can that be right? The public doesn't want to hear that their captain is in a high risk occupation when flying is the safest mode of travel available.

There must be more to the numbers and here it is-


http://money.cnn.com/gallery/pf/2012/09/20/most-dangerous-jobs/3.html

 

[jetlag7]

Saw that headline a couple of weeks ago and said gosh...can that be right? The public doesn't want to hear that their captain is in a high risk occupation when flying is the safest mode of travel available.

There must be more to the numbers and here it is-


http://money.cnn.com/gallery/pf/2012/09/20/most-dangerous-jobs/3.html

Yes, there were a high number of fatalities in Alaska last year that pushed us into the top 3, but Piloting has always been in the Top 10 for most dangerous jobs - and always ranked above firefighters and police officers in my near 20-year career. (I know because I have friends in those professions and this topic always seems to pop up every year or so..)

Why do you think air travel is still the safest mode of transportation?

It's because the pilots you are entrusting your life with are where they are by surviving years of the proverbial "trial by fire" that killed many of our colleagues working less glamorous jobs flying freight, flight instructing, medevac, combat, fire suppression, and yes, Alaskan bush flying.

The flying public is paying for the life-saving experience their Captain and First Officer have built over careers in one of the DEADLIEST professions on earth that ensures they never have to bat an eyelash over personal safety or that of their loved ones.

Yes, I agree the flying public does not want to hear their Captain is in "a high-risk occupation", and thanks to the experience, training, and qualifications of their flight crew - they never have to.

 

[rajflyboy]

Are we playing football or conducting business?

To win in business you have to be smart, level headed, and sometimes an outstanding diplomat….which have not been traits demonstrated by several in this thread.

we are talking about different issues here. You cant win unless you try to win.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Don't misunderstand me, I know all to well that the effort and financial commitments to become a pilot are huge and I have tremendous respect for those that have paid their dues. It is too bad the economics of the industry can't support the compensation expectations at the higher end of the scale.

This is dogmatic and doesn't past the smell test gret. You simply have no idea what you are talking about. And I used to respect your postings here. Why the crusade against the profession? What's in it for you?