AirTran pilots will own the SW upgrades

[humveedriver]

Take SW. Your right, sometimes they don't hire people for whatever reason. What if you interviewed again, and maybe again (number 3) and get hired? Fate or effort?

I think making people interview for a job three times "just to see if you want it bad enough" is BS. Is this a parole board or something? Oh thanks for hiring me 18 months later I really enjoyed the stress and loss of potential seniority. I realize for some it's a badge of honor. I just don't know why you hire someone after telling them no twice. Unless you saw potential the first time and should have given them their shot. I'm sure there is more to it. But I probably still wouldn't like the reasoning. Anyone can have a bad day or interview. But two bad days? That's probably a sign.

 

[HowardBorden]

Wrong. A contract was ratified that included down-line pay raises, but those big raises didn't come until several years later. SWA never hit pre-9/11 legacy rates (still hasn't, in fact), and only bypassed the legacies finally when they went into bankruptcy and took massive concessions.

Allow me to repeat that: today, 15 years later, SWA has STILL not hit pre-9/11 legacy narrowbody rates. You have absolutely nothing to be proud of. Period.

Let me repeat it for you: I didn't work here when the rates were lower! I came here when the rates and the contract rigs and benefits were INDUSTRY LEADING.

I chose an airline that hasn't needed to hit the reset button through bankruptcy. I chose to come to an airline that had the highest narrow body rates in the passenger industry. As a matter of fact, I still work for the carrier with the best 737 rates. Our 737 rates are eclipsed by one narrow body airframe at the legacies, the 757 at Delta. That rate is the same for the wide body 767 at Delta. As a matter fact our 737 rates are better than multiple wide body rates at many legacies. Better than the united 767 rate. Better than the 767 at American. Better than the A330 rate at Hawaiian. So, please tell me where I went wrong?

You made a different career choice than I and I won't try and second guess your choice. You chose an airline where the rates were low but certainly had potential to improve. I chose an airline that had the best rates in the industry. AT rates weren't low because they were dragged through BK, they were lower because of a myriad of other reasons, yet you made a choice to go there anyway. Good for you, I'm sure you had plenty of good reasons for your choice. However, to berate me for a choice to join an airline with an industry leading contract is laughable at best. AT had the ability and the promise to reach industry leading someday, but SWA was already there when I joined on. There is a difference.

 

[PCL_128]

Howard, you miss my point. I don't fault you for going to work for SWA. Hell, I don't even fault that idiot redflyer. What I fault red for is justifying the crappy pay rates that were a drag on collective bargaining for three decades and contributed to where pay rates ended up in the bankruptcy era. So as long as you aren't joining red in the excuses, then I have no beef with you, so stop defending yourself from an attack that hasn't taken place.

 

[HowardBorden]

Howard, you miss my point. I don't fault you for going to work for SWA. Hell, I don't even fault that idiot redflyer. What I fault red for is justifying the crappy pay rates that were a drag on collective bargaining for three decades and contributed to where pay rates ended up in the bankruptcy era. So as long as you aren't joining red in the excuses, then I have no beef with you, so stop defending yourself from an attack that hasn't taken place.

It seems to be a continuous pattern by you and many others in which you fault SWA for the failings of other management teams and union leadership. I can't even attempt to explain or justify something that happened long before my tenure with the company. I had no vote, I had no voice and I have no justification to second guess the reasons or rationales for the decisions that were made at SWA or any other carrier.

You are passing judgements on individuals making decisions and career moves long before you even considered or were old enough to enter this industry. Why don't you sit back and relax and stop passing judgement on how others who made decisions for themselves and their families at the cross roads of their own careers. Hindsight truly is 20/20. Why don't you focus on your own decisions without casting aspersions on those that came before you. Everyone has reasons for what they did when they did it. If you weren't there you simply are unqualified to second guess them.

For the record, I understand how easy it is to pass judgements on others decisions, I am guilty of it myself. We would all be better served if we kept our judgements about others decisions to ourselves, confidant that we were not there at the time and can not ever truly understand how those decisions were made and for what reasons.

 

[PCL_128]

Nice sidestep, but the decisions of leaders are always up for debate.

 

[HowardBorden]

Nice sidestep, but the decisions of leaders are always up for debate.

That may be true, but in union politics at least, those decisions made by leaders are put to the test through membership ratification votes. The membership itself (at least in most cases) gets to weigh in on the decisions made by the leadership through their own vote. That is how our own little mini republics work. We can't reasonably understand how and why individuals vote the way they do, but we can speculate that those decisions were made for reasons justifiable to the individual.

 

[bluesideup1]

Holding up stock options as justification for horrendous pay is just further proof that the SWA guys of old didn't give a flying you-know-what about the profession. Stock options in lieu of pay do nothing to raise the bar. In fact, they do the exact opposite.

Strong talk from a value jet guy. Haven't your pay rates been significantly less than ours for your entire airlines existence? I don't see how you can actually with a straight face complain that SWA pilots were bringing down the industry while Value jet/airtran has never lead the way in anything when it comes to contractual gains.

 

[PCL_128]

That may be true, but in union politics at least, those decisions made by leaders are put to the test through membership ratification votes. The membership itself (at least in most cases) gets to weigh in on the decisions made by the leadership through their own vote. That is how our own little mini republics work. We can't reasonably understand how and why individuals vote the way they do, but we can speculate that those decisions were made for reasons justifiable to the individual.

It's not enough that decisions be justifiable to an individual, or even an individual pilot group. Those decisions need to be justifiable in light of the entire profession.

 

[Ty Webb]

Strong talk from a value jet guy. Haven't your pay rates been significantly less than ours for your entire airlines existence? I don't see how you can actually with a straight face complain that SWA pilots were bringing down the industry while Value jet/airtran has never lead the way in anything when it comes to contractual gains.

If you can find a copy of your 2001 contract to compare to our 2001 rates, you might be surprised.

 

[twepilot]

"Those decisions need to be justifiable in light of the entire profession. "
Dude, you are living in LaLa Land.

RV

 

[Roomwithaview]

Revisionists

You guys grasp at straws by any means possible all in order to attempt to bolster the case that the tranny, in some way shape or form, was equal to or better than SWA (then why were pilots leaving in droves to come here and elsewhere?) to continue to attempt to make the case that you all got "screwed" after you were "acquired".

Can we stop the d*ck measuring?

Does it make you feel better to make outlandish claims about SWA vs TRAN "The good, the bad and the ugly"

I can shoot holes in most of your wild comments and pick them off one by one but it gets old. Additionally, PCL, why do you even care any more? Or more succinctly-Why should we care what you have to say? You claim you're not coming over. So, while I won't go so far to state that your opinion doesn't matter, I will say that it shouldn't hold any level of import with anyone that remains. You're turning yourself into an insignificant dweeb the likes of a certain General on here or his alter ego OYS.

Additionally, I take issue with the way you've berated your MEC for getting you a much better deal than you deserved and they did so by being strategic, by playing hardball, and by strong arming those that had more mojo going into the deal.

That should be a lesson WE (all of us now joined together) should reflect on and learn from. Because, the stronger of the two negotiating committees did not survive. Instead, our QOL, PAY, BENNIEs etc are all being manufactured by the same weak sisters that couldn't get us a better deal than SL-10 which was a MUCH worse deal than SL-9 (for us)

SLI 1 vs SLI 2 is debatable. But, one cannot argue the furlough protection provided by SLI2 AND the much better RSW Global Seniority that was handed over by Kelly with nary a whimper from our emasculated union.

It's time to get back in the fight not against each other. The next buyout is coming and even your beloved RM acknowledges and admits that it's not in our (all of ours) best interest to have another tranny debacle go down where we RSW lose even more RSW pilot seniority.

If you can't wrap your arms around that then, Yes, you are not finished pi$$ing moaning and whining about the SLI and you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Ty Webb]

Room, if you really want it to go away, then just shut your pie-hole and let people come to terms with it on their own. Rest assured, if you keep throwing mud and bullsh!t, people will respond.

 

[Roomwithaview]

6353 posts

Room, if you really want it to go away, then just shut your pie-hole and let people come to terms with it on their own. Rest assured, if you keep throwing mud and bullsh!t, people will respond.

of which I'm certain over 50% are pi$$ing and moaning about SWA and/or the ACQUISITION.

I don't GAS if it "goes away". What I do suggest is working "SMART" towards making sure we (RSW PILOTS) don't get f*cked again. The only way to do that is to acknowledge and learn from the mistakes of the past. First and foremost that we (RSW PILOTS) gave a ton-got nothing in return and totally f*cked ourselves by not having better contractual language (still not fixed) a weak d*ck NC, with an even weaker d*ck supporting cast back at the front office.

What's the game plan going forward oh great and omnipotent FLIFO thought leader?

 

[Ty Webb]

Blah-blah-blah.

I'm out.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Blah-blah-blah.

I'm out.

It's not gonna win you a better contract.
It's not gonna prevent a carbon copy of what just happened.

I'm suggesting that if you are in fact now (or will be in the future) a RSW pilot, to do everything in your power to protect and improve on what you have.

The wheels are coming off over here and burying your head in the sand won't fix it.

The same players that ran the SLI are running the show on the Section Six. If you think they "killed it" for RSW pilots, then, by all means, flip it on autopilot. If, however, you are man enough to admit that we may not have the sharpest tools in the shed working on what's going to set the course for the next however many years, and arguably (should we buy someone else-a highly likely possibility) the rest of our careers, then you might want to pull your seat forward and strap on your shoulder harnesses.

 

[HowardBorden]

It's not enough that decisions be justifiable to an individual, or even an individual pilot group. Those decisions need to be justifiable in light of the entire profession.

This is an absolutely ludicrous and ridiculous statement, but it certainly sheds a lot of light on your ALPA skewed vision of reality.

My decisions are only made with regard to how it will effect myself and my family alone. I would never expect someone else to attempt to interpret my personal needs and wants above their own when making career decisions. I won't make decisions based on what I think others might want or need and I would never presume that others do that for me. The one man one vote system works because each individual is different with differing desires and they vote accordingly.

"Those decisions need to be justifiable in light of the entire profession." My God man can't you understand that we can't all agree on what is justifiable to the entire profession. Your vision of justifiable and my vision of justifiable are vastly different I assure you.

 

[slaquer5]

Room, if you really want it to go away, then just shut your pie-hole and let people come to terms with it on their own. Rest assured, if you keep throwing mud and bullsh!t, people will respond.

Dude

Please take your own advice

You are a piece of work .

 

[PCL_128]

This is an absolutely ludicrous and ridiculous statement, but it certainly sheds a lot of light on your ALPA skewed vision of reality.

My decisions are only made with regard to how it will effect myself and my family alone. I would never expect someone else to attempt to interpret my personal needs and wants above their own when making career decisions. I won't make decisions based on what I think others might want or need and I would never presume that others do that for me. The one man one vote system works because each individual is different with differing desires and they vote accordingly.

"Those decisions need to be justifiable in light of the entire profession." My God man can't you understand that we can't all agree on what is justifiable to the entire profession. Your vision of justifiable and my vision of justifiable are vastly different I assure you.

I understand your thought process, but it doesn't fit in an organized labor environment. In short, with your way of looking at the world, you shouldn't be in a union. Unions are about not just the individual, but the collective.

 

[PCL_128]

You guys grasp at straws by any means possible all in order to attempt to bolster the case that the tranny, in some way shape or form, was equal to or better than SWA (then why were pilots leaving in droves to come here and elsewhere?) to continue to attempt to make the case that you all got "screwed" after you were "acquired".

Can we stop the d*ck measuring?

Does it make you feel better to make outlandish claims about SWA vs TRAN "The good, the bad and the ugly"

I can shoot holes in most of your wild comments and pick them off one by one but it gets old. Additionally, PCL, why do you even care any more? Or more succinctly-Why should we care what you have to say? You claim you're not coming over. So, while I won't go so far to state that your opinion doesn't matter, I will say that it shouldn't hold any level of import with anyone that remains. You're turning yourself into an insignificant dweeb the likes of a certain General on here or his alter ego OYS.

Additionally, I take issue with the way you've berated your MEC for getting you a much better deal than you deserved and they did so by being strategic, by playing hardball, and by strong arming those that had more mojo going into the deal.

That should be a lesson WE (all of us now joined together) should reflect on and learn from. Because, the stronger of the two negotiating committees did not survive. Instead, our QOL, PAY, BENNIEs etc are all being manufactured by the same weak sisters that couldn't get us a better deal than SL-10 which was a MUCH worse deal than SL-9 (for us)

SLI 1 vs SLI 2 is debatable. But, one cannot argue the furlough protection provided by SLI2 AND the much better RSW Global Seniority that was handed over by Kelly with nary a whimper from our emasculated union.

It's time to get back in the fight not against each other. The next buyout is coming and even your beloved RM acknowledges and admits that it's not in our (all of ours) best interest to have another tranny debacle go down where we RSW lose even more RSW pilot seniority.

If you can't wrap your arms around that then, Yes, you are not finished pi$$ing moaning and whining about the SLI and you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You're still talking about the SLI? Sorry, man, but I'm not interested. Old news. If you want to talk about contract talks, uniting the pilot group, etc., then let's discuss. But we've beaten the SLI horse to a bloody pulp, and nobody is changing anyone's mind about it. Waste of time.

 

[Roomwithaview]

You're still talking about the SLI? Sorry, man, but I'm not interested. Old news. If you want to talk about contract talks, uniting the pilot group, etc., then let's discuss. But we've beaten the SLI horse to a bloody pulp, and nobody is changing anyone's mind about it. Waste of time.

You're still wasting your time on subjects that don't/won't matter to you in 4 months?

Additionally, don't think the fact that you WANT to talk about the SLI when you want to do some SWA bashing and then you DON'T want to talk about it when you get called out on your BS.

Thanks for checking in FLIFO thought leader. Can I put my name in the hat even if I have only less than 500 posts?