FO/Flex how would you vote to integrate??

[luckydog]

1. Why would any FO pilot accept - even with a pay freeze - what would amount to an over $7,000 annual pay cut (in lost per diem) which would result from the resulting elimination of his/her contractial meal program benefit?
2. Why would any FO pilot accept a pay freeze?
3. Why would any FO pilot accept the humiliation of at-will employment.

WHY, WHY, WHY, none of us know WHY anyone does anything... If anyone feels that being a FJ pilot is better for them, apply. If someone feels that staying at FO is better, don't APPLY.

oh, and pound sand with that 'humiliation of at will employment' crap.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I think this ^^^ is a very good question. I think some other good questions are, as a result of accepting employment at Flex:

1. Why would any FO pilot accept - even with a pay freeze - what would amount to an over $7,000 annual pay cut (in lost per diem) which would result from the resulting elimination of his/her contractial meal program benefit?
2. Why would any FO pilot accept a pay freeze?
3. Why would any FO pilot accept the humiliation of at-will employment.

I personally think all of this is nothing but a very lame trial balloon being floated by a few management stooges, at the behest of their masters, here on FI.

Let me again remind all of you what Martin Levit said in Confessions of a union buster:

"For my campaigns I identified two key targets: the rank-and-file workers and their immediate supervisors. The supervisors (or in this case, lead check-airman) served as my front line. I took them hostage on the first day and sent them to anti-union boot camp. I know that people who didn't feel threatened wouldn't fight. So through hours of seminars, rallies, and one-on-one encounters, I taught the supervisors to despise and fear the union. I persuaded them that a union-organizing drive was a personal attack on them, a referendum on their leadership skills, and an attempt to humiliate them. I was friendly, even jovial at times, but always unforgiving as I compelled each supervisor to feel he was somehow to blame for the union push and consequently obliged to defeat it. Like any hostages, most supervisors could not resist for long. They soon came to see the fight through the eyes of their captor and went to work wringing union sympathies out of their workers."

You think you're pretty clever accusing, at least me since I only speak for myself, of being a management union buster. I couldn't be any more removed from a manager if I tried. That being said, let's address your issues:

1. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but based on you doing 8/6's all year with no vacation I calculated around $8,500 in per diem for you. That's only about $2,000 more than what I brought home. And, it sounds like you'd rather have a meal plan vs getting our benefits??? Just because we're not a union shop???

2. I'm with ya on the pay freeze. If a FLOPs pilot comes over then his pay should continue to increase as it would at FLOPs until the Flexjet scale catches up then rise with it. I'd have no issues with that.

3. Your 1108 tunnel vision is preventing you from seeing that Flexjet pilots aren't the laughing stock of the major fractional companies. FLOPs is.

And for the quote from the union busting exec, he sounds like a despicable man to have to work for. And if Ricci is that bad, then shame on him. But for you to put me in the same company as Mr. Levit, you're way off base. With your trashing of non union employees and managers, I could quote Karl Marx and his Communist Manifesto on how to demonize and destroy those with whom you disagree. So, we can go back and forth for thousands of posts on here but the name calling and categorizing of those with whom you disagree with is pointless.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Do I really need to pull out the "L" word?

Absolutely false.

"Reached out?" What's that? Read their name aloud with two people in the room. Because the majority of the "top 100 or so" were not contacted.

Source?

Well, let's see.

Flexjet Pilots Seniority List #321 Hired 12/15/2013
Flight Options Pilots Seniority List #312 Furloughed

Good guy. He is not at fault. But, definitely interviewed and hired out of seniority. Check the names of those swimming in the pool. By the way, their arms are getting tired.

The stats I heard were we reached out to the top 100.

Of those, about 25 were interested or contactable.

After the phone interviews we brought 15 or so in for the face-to-face interview.

We hired 1 so far and placed 5-6 in the pool that are waiting on class dates.

Not sure where the conspiracy is here. We are selective in who we hire. We weren't offering jobs to these pilots, just interviews.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Hmmmm ... same address and phone number for the last nine years and I have yet to receive a phone call ... and I'm well within that top 100.

Then again ... I was heavily involved with the union ... Hmmmm

Not sure why that would be.

I was told we attemted to comtact the top 100.

Maybe the FO management "tailored" the list to just those that they thought we should interview. I am not privy to any of these details.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So, doesn't the equate to an instant pay raise?

Or am I missing something?

It depends on their LOS and fleet/seat.

A first officer would probably see an increase in pay.

A 15 year Capt would have their pay frozen at their current rate until their FJ pay would surpass that rate.

I Heven't seen this in any official communication, just a rumor. I hope it is true for those FO pilots it would benefit.

 

[slowtation capt]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but based on you doing 8/6's all year with no vacation I calculated around $8,500 in per diem for you. That's only about $2,000 more than what I brought home. And, it sounds like you'd rather have a meal plan vs getting our benefits??? Just because we're not a union shop??

7/7, 8/7, Flex - Those are the schedules

That $2,000 more, is that $2000 more of per diem then you brought home, or is that $2000 more of salary when you combine our salary with tax free per diem that we don't spend.

 

[Praetorian]

You think you're pretty clever accusing, at least me since I only speak for myself, of being a management union buster. I couldn't be any more removed from a manager if I tried. That being said, let's address your issues:

I really am sorry, I wasn't accusing you of anything and I've never thought that anything you've personally said on here reminded me of management. I really thought everyone knew who the manager was on here:

I have been involved in the interview process. We will start interviewing active FO pilots this fall who wish to resign and come to FJ.

The ability to hire is one of the things that make up the legal definition of "management".

1. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will), but based on you doing 8/6's all year with no vacation I calculated around $8,500 in per diem for you. That's only about $2,000 more than what I brought home. And, it sounds like you'd rather have a meal plan vs getting our benefits??? Just because we're not a union shop???

FO pilots receive, per the CBA, $40.80 per day of per Diem. Assuming a pilot works 22 eight day rotations per year (some only work 21, as they receive three weeks of vacation per year and some work a 7/7 schedule so the numbers are different). That works out to $7,180.80 of per Diem per year. Thing is, unlike you, we get to keep all of it. This is because the CBA stipulates that we can expense all of our meals while on the road and there is no $$ limit. BTW, I recommend that the next time you're in TEB you go into the city and try the Chateaubriand at Keens on W. 36th St., it's to die for. I usually also get the Lincoln's Oysters, most excellent.

2. I'm with ya on the pay freeze. If a FLOPs pilot comes over then his pay should continue to increase as it would at FLOPs until the Flexjet scale catches up then rise with it. I'd have no issues with that.

It's not worth squat, if it can all be taken away with a Friday afternoon email.

3. Your 1108 tunnel vision is preventing you from seeing that Flexjet pilots aren't the laughing stock of the major fractional companies. FLOPs is.

Really? I think you should ask a few NJ pilots about this. Because unlike you guys, who continue to bow and scrape for the crumbs off managements table, the pilots at FO and NJ have fought for what we have and will continue to do so. And in the fall we will be back at the bargaining table fighting for more, just like the NJ guys are fighting right now. Meanwhile, what will you guys be doing to advance the Fractional piloting profession? I mean its like the kid in high school who flinches in the face of the bully calling the kid who stands up to him "the laughing stock". Ridiculous.

And for the quote from the union busting exec, he sounds like a despicable man to have to work for. And if Ricci is that bad, then shame on him. But for you to put me in the same company as Mr. Levit, you're way off base. With your trashing of non union employees and managers, I could quote Karl Marx and his Communist Manifesto on how to demonize and destroy those with whom you disagree. So, we can go back and forth for thousands of posts on here but the name calling and categorizing of those with whom you disagree with is pointless.

Martin Levitt was not a "union busting exec", he was a consultant who advised union-busting managers about best methods and practices for keeping unions out and busting the existing unions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_J._Levitt
I'm simply suggesting that some of the tactics we are seeing employed by one of your lower level managers on here are reminiscent of some of the tactics in the playbook he and others developed back in the 70's, when the modern multi-billion dollar union-busting industry emerged. http://unionbustingplaybook.com/

 

[warlord19]

to PRAETORIAN, ET AL

Some of you guys might consider lightning up on the Lincoln Oysters et al…kinda showing up around the waistline on some of you, know what i mean.

Oh, and I don’t recall ever having to bow, scrape, kiss ass or lick boots for what we have…we’ve always been offered a yearly competitive employment package, and it was ours to accept or reject….have you ever heard of such a concept?

and, if you fellas want to subtract your annual 1108 “dues”, you won’t find much difference in your and our per diem.

Good luck with your next negotiations…I predict one day you might come close to our package.
WL

 

[luckydog]

The ability to expense meals on the road is a nice perk, but it would be wasted on me. I like to save my calories for when I'm at home .

I much prefer having 401k matching and bonus contributions; that money compounds in the bank, not on the hips.

 

[slowtation capt]

and, if you fellas want to subtract your annual 1108 ?dues?, you won?t find much difference in your and our per diem.

So you do you get to buy any meal at anytime that you want, place catering orders for the hours that you are flying and not pay for any of it out of your tax free per diem?

I can subtract my union dues from my per diem, if that's the number games that you want to play, but then put my union dues right back on my taxes for a write off.

 

[luckydog]

Technically, unless your dues are a tax credit you aren't getting a complete 'write off'.

In any case, you're stating that a valid reason a current FO pilot wouldn't want to start at FJ is their the loss of the meal allowance. If that is the case, then stay put and get fat off of KRs credit card.

Starting pay at FJ is $309/day, that's about 64K on a 16 day line, 7 year pay is $402/day or 83K on 16 days. Initially only 2 weeks vacation + 7 other PTO days. 401k matching for 1st 6% + an additional contribution of 3%, per diem is $1.75/hr. Currently the schedule is seniority bid, new hires won't get one of their schedule choices for a long while. Plan on working a 6/4, 6/4, 5/3 type of pattern.

I wouldn't expect any captains to apply; FOs maybe depending on their personal priorities.

FJ pilots have no idea if this is a good deal for you guys, apply or don't but please STFU about union busting. Get the IBT to file a grievance if you don't like it, show Kenn who's boss.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So you do you get to buy any meal at anytime that you want, place catering orders for the hours that you are flying and not pay for any of it out of your tax free per diem?

I can subtract my union dues from my per diem, if that's the number games that you want to play, but then put my union dues right back on my taxes for a write off.

We do get crew meals for pretty much all live legs. Just recently we have been able to select the meal we receive. And no, crew meals don't come out of our per diem. Not sure where that idea came from.

No, we can't buy why meal at any time on the company. But let's do some math.

You are a 15 year citation X captain. Let's compare your pay to a FJ 15 year Lear captain.

FO 15 year citation X captain on the 18 day flex salary = $106,142
FJ 15 year Lear captain at 15.5 days per bid period = $132,587

That comes to a difference of $26,445.

I would have to spend $131 per day on average (15.5 x 13 = 201.5 days worked) on food to equal $26,445.

The big difference you are missing here is that if you only spend $10,000 you get nothing more.

If I only spend $10,000 I get to keep the additional $16,445.

This is one of the areas in your contract that sounds great until you really think about it.

 

[BE40Driver]

So by my math, a 15 year BJ captain at FO would be pay frozen for 13 more years till a pay raise as a captain at Flex. Why would we want to do that! How would that make you feel knowing your SIC was making more than you as Captain.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I can subtract my union dues from my per diem, if that's the number games that you want to play, but then put my union dues right back on my taxes for a write off.

Yes, you can deduct union dues on your federal income taxes.

The IRS publications say you can deduct all union dues that exceed 2% of your AGI.

How much of your union dues did you get to deduct last year? Bet it wasn't that much. Kinda takes part of your argument away.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So by my math, a 15 year BJ captain at FO would be pay frozen for 13 more years till a pay raise as a captain at Flex. Why would we want to do that! How would that make you feel knowing your SIC was making more than you as Captain.

I don't follow your logic.

A 15 year BJ captain would be frozen at his salary he was making at FO.

When his FJ pay based on seat and LOS exceeded that his pay would increase.

Based on your pay scales and our junior captain LOS I can't imagine a scenario where one of your pilots would be making more than a FJ captain.

Even if they did, it wouldn't bother me.

 

[slowtation capt]

You are a 15 year citation X captain. Let's compare your pay to a FJ 15 year Lear captain.

FO 15 year citation X captain on the 18 day flex salary = $106,142
FJ 15 year Lear captain at 15.5 days per bid period = $132,587

That comes to a difference of $26,445.

I would have to spend $131 per day on average (15.5 x 13 = 201.5 days worked) on food to equal $26,445.

The big difference you are missing here is that if you only spend $10,000 you get nothing more.

If I only spend $10,000 I get to keep the additional $16,445.
.

Here's where you failed to include, didn't know about, or etc...The automatic percentage (3%) increases each time they extend the contract at yr 4 and 5 on top of the annual increase(3.5%)

FO 15 year citation X captain on the 18 day flex salary = $116,548
FJ 15 year Lear captain at 15.5 days per bid period = $132,587

That comes to a difference of $16,039.

I would have to spend $79 per day on average (15.5 x 13 = 201.5 days worked) on food to equal $16,039.

But since I work only 192 day, I guess it more of $84 a day

If I only spend $10,000 I get to keep the additional $6,039.

Since you make $658 a day

Flops 15yr Citation X Flex schedule makes $607

If he worked those extra 9.5 days, he would make an additional $5766.50+$116,548=$122,314.50

Now you are talking about a $10272.50 difference or just $51 a day of food.
And if you spend your $10,000, then you only keep $272.50

 

[el raton]

.....

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Here's where you failed to include, didn't know about, or etc...The automatic percentage (3%) increases each time they extend the contract at yr 4 and 5 on top of the annual increase(3.5%)

FO 15 year citation X captain on the 18 day flex salary = $116,548
FJ 15 year Lear captain at 15.5 days per bid period = $132,587

That comes to a difference of $16,039.

I would have to spend $79 per day on average (15.5 x 13 = 201.5 days worked) on food to equal $16,039.

But since I work only 192 day, I guess it more of $84 a day

If I only spend $10,000 I get to keep the additional $6,039.

Since you make $658 a day

Flops 15yr Citation X Flex schedule makes $607

If he worked those extra 9.5 days, he would make an additional $5766.50+$116,548=$122,314.50

Now you are talking about a $10272.50 difference or just $51 a day of food.
And if you spend your $10,000, then you only keep $272.50

Guess I shouldn't have picked a random number of $10,000.

I am sure the average pilot doesn't spend anywhere near that number.

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time. While we are flying we get crew meals. The only real meal that I usually buy on the road is dinner.

I get I only average $25 per day of meal expenses on the road.

I was wondering since you guys work so hard always doing 14-10 and running into 10 in 24 several times a rotation, when would you have time to head to Manhattan on an overnight to eat at these expensive restaurants?

Good thing is that by July 1st we will all be on the same scheduling software. This will mean that reality that you probably work just as hard as we do will be available to see. Looking forward to the veil being lifted on your exaggerations.

 

[V1 Rotate]

So by my math, a 15 year BJ captain at FO would be pay frozen for 13 more years till a pay raise as a captain at Flex. Why would we want to do that! How would that make you feel knowing your SIC was making more than you as Captain.

If you get in on the front end of the hiring you'll upgrade within a few years. So, you'll see the jump from 15 year FLOPs CA pay to 3-5 year Lear CA pay fairly quickly. And the way it is right now, you wouldn't be paid more than any of our current Lear CA's or the ones that will be upgrading soon considering the most junior one will come in on the CA scale somewhere around the 8 year mark.

 

[DirtyBeech]

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time.



Until some sweet soul decided to negotiate away our breakfasts. It's cold cereal and pastries nowadays unless you care to pony up for something warm or are at a Hampton or Holiday Express where you can feast on powdered eggs and curiously rubber styled bacon.

It's not appreciated btw. Nor is shelling out half to 2/3's of our less than standard per diem to get a decent breakfast when we stay at a nicer property.

Sorry. Hot button issue.

 

[Propilot77]

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time.



Until some sweet soul decided to negotiate away our breakfasts. It's cold cereal and pastries nowadays unless you care to pony up for something warm or are at a Hampton or Holiday Express where you can feast on powdered eggs and curiously rubber styled bacon.

It's not appreciated btw. Nor is shelling out half to 2/3's of our less than standard per diem to get a decent breakfast when we stay at a nicer property.

Sorry. Hot button issue.

Would have to agree with this wholeheartedly! The quality of the hotels has dropped along with the breakfast. This all changed AFTER THE SALE!

 

[Dirty Squirrel]

Loosing our complimentary breakfast at the Crowne HPN, for example, will cost you $21.95 to start your day. In other news, NetJets still gets theirs for free.

 

[slowtation capt]

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time.

Until some sweet soul decided to negotiate away our breakfasts. It's cold cereal and pastries nowadays unless you care to pony up for something warm or are at a Hampton or Holiday Express where you can feast on powdered eggs and curiously rubber styled bacon.

It's not appreciated btw. Nor is shelling out half to 2/3's of our less than standard per diem to get a decent breakfast when we stay at a nicer property.

Sorry. Hot button issue.

.

Would have to agree with this wholeheartedly! The quality of the hotels has dropped along with the breakfast. This all changed AFTER THE SALE!

Loosing our complimentary breakfast at the Crowne HPN, for example, will cost you $21.95 to start your day. In other news, NetJets still gets theirs for free.

I can only tell you the amount of times that we have checked into hotels, the front desk start to give us coupons for breakfast, and then they say; "Oh wait, I'm sorry, I thought you guys were NetJets"

Also, hate to say it, but just wait until the rate that the company negotiated is so low that you will no longer get the points.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I can only tell you the amount of times that we have checked into hotels, the front desk start to give us coupons for breakfast, and then they say; "Oh wait, I'm sorry, I thought you guys were NetJets"

Also, hate to say it, but just wait until the rate that the company negotiated is so low that you will no longer get the points.

They used to give free breakfast at Priority Club properties based on status. That changed, I believe it was jan 1st. Us getting free breakfast isn't because of our room rate change, it is because of change in their policy. Several hotel chains are doing this since we are no longer in an economic downturn.

Are you saying you never get hotel points? That is surprising since we actually use the same travel company.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Are you saying you never get hotel points? That is surprising since we actually use the same travel company.

"Never" would be inaccurate. But we certainly do not get the points we once did.

And make no mistake - the disappearing points, breakfast, etc is due to lower negotiated room rates. Not to mention the diminishing quality of hotels in general. I'm seeing a lot more Wingates / Radisons / Holiday Inn Expresses these days and few Hilton properties.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

"Never" would be inaccurate. But we certainly do not get the points we once did.

And make no mistake - the disappearing points, breakfast, etc is due to lower negotiated room rates. Not to mention the diminishing quality of hotels in general. I'm seeing a lot more Wingates / Radisons / Holiday Inn Expresses these days and few Hilton properties.

Make no mistake that you are wrong.

For example:

We used to get breakfast in CCR at the Crowne Plaza.

I stayed there earlier this year at the SAME RATE and didn't get breakfast. I asked the manager and he said that all of the priority club properties that used to give us free breakfast based on status have changed. Our rate is not what gave use the breakfast, it was the status. Some of their hotels have free breakfast for everyone (holiday inn express) and those have not changed of course.

As far as I am aware Hilton has not changed their breakfast by status system.

Stayed at the Hyatt MMU and guess what, still had the same free breakfast included in our rate.

This doom and gloom sky is falling stuff has got to stop. Things hpmay have changed, but you are assuming they are the fault of the acquisition.

 

[slowtation capt]

We probably get breakfast in the hotel 75% of the time.

Until some sweet soul decided to negotiate away our breakfasts. It's cold cereal and pastries nowadays unless you care to pony up for something warm or are at a Hampton or Holiday Express where you can feast on powdered eggs and curiously rubber styled bacon.

It's not appreciated btw. Nor is shelling out half to 2/3's of our less than standard per diem to get a decent breakfast when we stay at a nicer property.

Sorry. Hot button issue.

Would have to agree with this wholeheartedly! The quality of the hotels has dropped along with the breakfast. This all changed AFTER THE SALE!

Loosing our complimentary breakfast at the Crowne HPN, for example, will cost you $21.95 to start your day. In other news, NetJets still gets theirs for free.

This doom and gloom sky is falling stuff has got to stop. Things hpmay have changed, but you are assuming they are the fault of the acquisition.

It's the first time that anyone from Flex has spoken up and actually said something has changed and they view it as a changed for the worse since the purchase.

And immediately you jump all over them about doom and gloom, it's not the fault of the acquisition.

Maybe start listening to what other people actually say, whether or not you like it, whether or not you choose to want to believe it, whether or not you agree with it, whether or not anything.

All you do is argue that everyone else is wrong and everything that comes out of you mouth and keyboard is the almighty words of the land.
Other people have thoughts and opinions, even some of your other fellow Flex pilots.

So go ahead, jump down their throats and tell them they are wrong, tell them that just because they lost a perk in the eyes that meant something to them, that they think it's all doom and gloom and that they are crazy for thinking that, and they need to stop it right this minute, or else......

 

[DirtyBeech]

You're just plain wrong on this. The pilot group is noticing less amenities and cheaper properties. Sure there are some factors outside of our rates like policy changes at some properties, but that's not the whole picture. Hamptons and Holiday Inn Expresses give away their breakfasts because it's pure crap that they serve. Ie. it's cheap.

 

[shanes123]

TWA cares about only himself and is going to do and say whatever it takes to keep himself in his comfy little world and he don't give a damn who's quality of life is comprised or why..This is why a guy like him hates Unions. He's not concerned about any fellow pilots or employees..He don't give a damn who's pay is frozen or who gets demoted or who after 13-25 years gets thrown into the right seat as long as its not him. But when KR is done using him like a little puppet and breaks all the promises of having a wonderful career he will be crying the loudest..And the ********************ed up part. (the one thing I can't stand about unions myself) the union will fight for his rights instead of telling him to screw off..Unions are far from perfect but its the only thing we got with KR at the helm

 

[warlord19]

Yea, life on the road here at Flex is really starting to suck. Just back from a 6 dayer, I was forced to stay in 1) Crown Plaza, 2) Red Roof, 3) 2 Hilton's and 4) a Hilton GI.
Ohh, the horror,, the horror.
WL