Delta the Least Respected Brand in America

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba, you are mistaken. The Merger Committee only had the authority to negotiate, it was never empowered to accept an Agreement, that authority rests with the MEC, just like during Contract Negotiations. You never give your negotiators the ability to accept the Agreement, that is standard, and I'm sure SWAPA's leadership also had the final authority as well.

It was up to the MEC to decide whether the Agreement brought back by the Merger Committee met the minimum standards, sending it out for Member Ratification, or to send them back to the table. If there was not a desire from the other party to continue negotiations, or if time ran out, it was to proceed to binding Arbitration, as agreed to under the Process Agreement.

Unfortunately, instead of proceeding under the Process Agreement, we got threatened with being parted out, and thus the underwhelming Agreement was overwhelmingly voted for.

Sorry Ty, perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was getting at in my post. I never meant to imply that the Merger Committee had the authority to send anything out for ratification. In all my references to the Process Agreement, I referred to AirTran ALPA's MEC's actions, not the Merger Committee. After all, it was the MEC (AirTran's direct representatives) who signed the thing.

In the beginning of the PA, immediately after recognizing that Allegheny-Mohawk allowed for binding arbitration, both unions (the leaderships, that is) agreed that they wanted to utilized negotiations instead of arbitration. Turns out that wasn't exactly true for the AirTran ALPA MEC, now was it? Their obvious (and even indirectly stated) gameplan was to go straight to arbitration. That doesn't sound like good faith to me.

The other thing that's mistaken about your post, is that nowhere in the PA does it allow for, if there "was not a desire from the other party to continue negotiations...," then they could "proceed to binding arbitration." The Process Agreement's ONLY mention of "desire," was the clearly stated, and agreed to by both unions, desire to avoid arbitration. And, of course, to bargain in good faith to achieve an agreement by negotiations. As I pointed out, AirTran ALPA's leadership had no intention of honoring their word in this case.

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Sorry Ty, perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was getting at in my post. I never meant to imply that the Merger Committee had the authority to send anything out for ratification. In all my references to the Process Agreement, I referred to AirTran ALPA's MEC's actions, not the Merger Committee. After all, it was the MEC (AirTran's direct representatives) who signed the thing.

In the beginning of the PA, immediately after recognizing that Allegheny-Mohawk allowed for binding arbitration, both unions (the leaderships, that is) agreed that they wanted to utilized negotiations instead of arbitration. Turns out that wasn't exactly true for the AirTran ALPA MEC, now was it? Their obvious (and even indirectly stated) gameplan was to go straight to arbitration. That doesn't sound like good faith to me.

The other thing that's mistaken about your post, is that nowhere in the PA does it allow for, if there "was not a desire from the other party to continue negotiations...," then they could "proceed to binding arbitration." The Process Agreement's ONLY mention of "desire," was the clearly stated, and agreed to by both unions, desire to avoid arbitration. And, of course, to bargain in good faith to achieve an agreement by negotiations. As I pointed out, AirTran ALPA's leadership had no intention of honoring their word in this case.

Bubba

Of course you weren't clear Bubba, that way you can TRY to support your argument. Sorry, I was correct. The way your union handled the situation was ridiculous, and you probably owe your boss big time in upcoming negotiations. I bet he'll come to the table and pull out the ace card you had to give him. In the meantime, 1/3 of your pilots are pi$$ed for getting the shaft, while for some other reason the other 2/3 is pi$$ed because their egos are big enough to think the new group should have been stapled. That just doesn't happen anymore, and AT brought plenty to the table, even though they got zero 737 capt slots when the merger officially goes through. What is that all about? Unbelievable, and you know as well as I do that would have NEVER happened in arbitration, and that process agreement called for it, and I believe the boss agreed to it too? Right. Wow.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry Ty, perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was getting at in my post. I never meant to imply that the Merger Committee had the authority to send anything out for ratification. In all my references to the Process Agreement, I referred to AirTran ALPA's MEC's actions, not the Merger Committee. After all, it was the MEC (AirTran's direct representatives) who signed the thing.

In the beginning of the PA, immediately after recognizing that Allegheny-Mohawk allowed for binding arbitration, both unions (the leaderships, that is) agreed that they wanted to utilized negotiations instead of arbitration. Turns out that wasn't exactly true for the AirTran ALPA MEC, now was it? Their obvious (and even indirectly stated) gameplan was to go straight to arbitration. That doesn't sound like good faith to me.

The other thing that's mistaken about your post, is that nowhere in the PA does it allow for, if there "was not a desire from the other party to continue negotiations...," then they could "proceed to binding arbitration." The Process Agreement's ONLY mention of "desire," was the clearly stated, and agreed to by both unions, desire to avoid arbitration. And, of course, to bargain in good faith to achieve an agreement by negotiations. As I pointed out, AirTran ALPA's leadership had no intention of honoring their word in this case.

Bubba

Oh, boy . . .

My point was that the MEC was under no obligation to send out the turd the Merger Committee brought back from Dallas. The PA called for an Agreement to be sent out, there was no agreement reached between SWAPA and our MEC, thus nothing to put out for a vote.

The original intention was not to go to Arbitration, but I'm sure once it became clear that SWAPA's position was so far removed from what has been typical and customary between two non-bankrupt carriers . . . . well, I'm sure Arbitration looked like a foregone conclusion.

Look, it's pretty clear that you aren't going to see things the same way that I do . . . . and I'm not going to see it your way, so let's just put this to rest, shall we?

 

[SWA Bubba]

....

Look, it's pretty clear that you aren't going to see things the same way that I do . . . . and I'm not going to see it your way, so let's just put this to rest, shall we?

That sounds like a fine idea.

Bubba

 

[maxblast72]

Well, with a fool like MaxBlast representing us at the table, can ya blame them? :laugh:

Ty, don't forget the other 3 Merger Committee members, the previous 2 ATN MEC Chairs, the current ATN MEC Vice Chair, the 4 current ATN MEC voting reps, and myself were all on the same page in July/August of 2011. I guess we all had no clue in your fantasy world.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Of course you weren't clear Bubba, that way you can TRY to support your argument. Sorry, I was correct. The way your union handled the situation was ridiculous, and you probably owe your boss big time in upcoming negotiations. I bet he'll come to the table and pull out the ace card you had to give him. In the meantime, 1/3 of your pilots are pi$$ed for getting the shaft, while for some other reason the other 2/3 is pi$$ed because their egos are big enough to think the new group should have been stapled. That just doesn't happen anymore, and AT brought plenty to the table, even though they got zero 737 capt slots when the merger officially goes through. What is that all about? Unbelievable, and you know as well as I do that would have NEVER happened in arbitration, and that process agreement called for it, and I believe the boss agreed to it too? Right. Wow.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Why did you bother to quote my post? The crap you're babbling about above has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. All you do is regurgitate the same crapola over and over, despite people pointing out the BS.

I've got a great idea for you, General: why don't you start a new thread titled, "General Lee's same tired BS that he normally posts in every thread, no matter what the stated subject is." That way the rest of us can confine our laughing at you to a single thread.

Just a thought.

Bubba

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, don't forget the other 3 Merger Committee members, the previous 2 ATN MEC Chairs, the current ATN MEC Vice Chair, the 4 current ATN MEC voting reps, and myself were all on the same page in July/August of 2011. I guess we all had no clue in your fantasy world.

That's pretty funny, considering "the current ATN MEC Vice Chair, the 4 current ATN MEC voting reps" whom you think agree with you recently voted to shut down our forum in order to get rid of you and your pathological, craven rantings.

It's also becoming clearer every day who was living in a fantasy world, and who is STILL living in a fantasy world.

You were suckered into stapling 1/3 of our Pilots, and trading away 3.5 years of my seniority for a handful of magic beans, you *****************************bag.

 

[maxblast72]

That's pretty funny, considering "the current ATN MEC Vice Chair, the 4 current ATN MEC voting reps" whom you think agree with you recently voted to shut down our forum in order to get rid of you and your pathological, craven rantings.

Well, here is the body an email from our current MEC Vice Chairman to the Merger Committee Vice Chairman on August 15, 2011:

"Good talking to you today and I appreciate your time. Your story regarding the July 14th meeting and Cxxxxx’s email has kind of got my blood boiling the more I think about it. I called Kxxxx Nxxxxxx to make this request and I’m going to make the same request to you. Please push the MEC to have story time on Wednesday. I know you are going to be busy tomorrow with other stuff, but the MC and the MEC need to sit down and hash out a story and you all need to tell it on Wednesday. From what I understand, Cxxxxxx Gxx is calling his MCO CA’s asking them how they want him to vote. Forget the fact that I don’t think he should be doing this, how can they possibly be expected to make an informed decision when they don’t know the WHOLE story? It’s crazy.

It is frustrating listening to people who think they know all the facts, and they clearly don’t. It all needs to come out…you guys have to tell the story."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a September 4, 2011 email from one of our voting MEC reps to one of our line pilots talking about his recent vote to let our pilots vote on AIP #2 which had been approved to go out to a vote prior to the details being hashed out (AIP #2 was essentially just a seniority list):

　
"As you have probably already heard, your MEC has collectively decided to send this next agreement out for a vote. Incidentally, on AIP1 I was the single rep that voted to send that agreement to the pilots for a vote. That was a decision that I took very seriously and I am disappointed that the rest of the voting body did not agree with my assessment of the gravity of the situation, as I had no intention of EVER gambling with anyone's future without giving them a say in the outcome. Feel free to call if you would like to talk."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

And after talking to one of the current voting MEC reps last week, here is the line from the thread on the forum that really started the ball rolling to get the ATN forum shut down:

"Anytime you want to step off the property and man up let me know JC. I will be there."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

And speaking of craven, you talk all this crap on the FlightInfo (and the forum when it was up) but when you walked by me 2 weeks ago in the crewroom hallway, you didn't say a word to me.

 

[General Lee]

Max, did you blow him a kiss? No wonder he avoids you.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Ty Webb]

---------------------------and the forum when it was up) but when you walked by me 2 weeks ago in the crewroom hallway, you didn't say a word to me.

What is left to say to you in person that I haven't said here or on our forum? I think my opinion is pretty well-known.

Would you have preferred that I told you what a freakin' ass hat you are? Would that have made you feel better?

If you have any doubt as to how I feel, you're free to call me and ask. You have my number.

Btw, it was well-known that the MEC looked into barring you from the forum. It is a difficult procedure under ALPA policy. They decided it would be easier to just shut it down. GB offering to clean JC's clock was just a convenient point to do it . . . and you bought it. . . . Once again. Guess you still haven't learned when people are telling you what you want to hear. :laugh:

 

[waveflyer]

What is left to say to you in person that I haven't said here or on our forum? I think my opinion is pretty well-known.

Would you have preferred that I told you what a freakin' ass hat you are? Would that have made you feel better?

If you have any doubt as to how I feel, you're free to call me and ask. You have my number.

Btw, it was well-known that the MEC looked into barring you from the forum. It is a difficult procedure under ALPA policy. They decided it would be easier to just shut it down. GB offering to clean JC's clock was just a convenient point to do it . . . and you bought it. . . . Once again. Guess you still haven't learned when people are telling you what you want to hear. :laugh:

When keeping it real goes wrong.
Forums are for entertainment and unintentional knowledge only.

 

[flyboyike]

Of course you weren't clear Bubba, that way you can TRY to support your argument. Sorry, I was correct. The way your union handled the situation was ridiculous, and you probably owe your boss big time in upcoming negotiations. I bet he'll come to the table and pull out the ace card you had to give him. In the meantime, 1/3 of your pilots are pi$$ed for getting the shaft, while for some other reason the other 2/3 is pi$$ed because their egos are big enough to think the new group should have been stapled. That just doesn't happen anymore, and AT brought plenty to the table, even though they got zero 737 capt slots when the merger officially goes through. What is that all about? Unbelievable, and you know as well as I do that would have NEVER happened in arbitration, and that process agreement called for it, and I believe the boss agreed to it too? Right. Wow.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Out of curiosity, General, what plans (if any) are in place to integrate the pilot group of the airline your company recently purchased in a transaction far more similar to the WN/FL deal than the DL/NW one? To my knowledge, there are no such plans, except for an "accelerated interview selection process" for some of them, and even then they still have to pass the interview. I would like to bring it to your attention that these pilots, too, fly an airplane that is also on the DL payscale (although not as yet in DL's fleet), so here again we see a similarity to the WN/FL deal.

You may disagree with some of the ways in which the FL group is being integrated, but at least they are being integrated. What justification can you give for not integrating the pilots of your company's recent purchase, especially since they belong to the same union, which was not the case with the WN/FL deal?

I'm very curious to hear your answers.

 

[GogglesPisano]

In related news, Fortune lists Delta as the world's most admired airline.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1904

 

[redflyer65]

It goes well with this site..


http://www.deltareallysucks.com/

 

[bri5150]

In related news, Fortune lists Delta as the world's most admired airline.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1904

What am I missing here? The memo clearly says Delta is number one, but if you click on the link in the memo, the only airlines on the list are Southwest and Singapore.

edit: Oh, I found it. If you click on "all companies", "airlines", and "industry rank" instead of "score", then you can see Delta three companies down with a "1" in industry rank.

one more edit: and there were only 7 airlines in the entire world included in the ranking. The only other US airlines were United and Southwest.

 

[GogglesPisano]

What am I missing here? The memo clearly says Delta is number one, but if you click on the link in the memo, the only airlines on the list are Southwest and Singapore.

edit: Oh, I found it. If you click on "all companies", "airlines", and "industry rank" instead of "score", then you can see Delta three companies down with a "1" in industry rank.

one more edit: and there were only 7 airlines in the entire world included in the ranking. The only other US airlines were United and Southwest.

So, what you're saying is, we're ahead of Southwest? :beer:

 

[dicko]

you walked by me 2 weeks ago in the crewroom hallway, you didn't say a word to me.

There's a word for that Max. It's called being ignored. Posting personal emails on a forum isn't cool. It makes people wonder if they can trust communicating with you.

Can we return to the Max of seven years ago; the one sitting in a taco joint in the Highlands, getting hammered hitting on a blonde ? Please.

 

[General Lee]

Out of curiosity, General, what plans (if any) are in place to integrate the pilot group of the airline your company recently purchased in a transaction far more similar to the WN/FL deal than the DL/NW one? To my knowledge, there are no such plans, except for an "accelerated interview selection process" for some of them, and even then they still have to pass the interview. I would like to bring it to your attention that these pilots, too, fly an airplane that is also on the DL payscale (although not as yet in DL's fleet), so here again we see a similarity to the WN/FL deal.

You may disagree with some of the ways in which the FL group is being integrated, but at least they are being integrated. What justification can you give for not integrating the pilots of your company's recent purchase, especially since they belong to the same union, which was not the case with the WN/FL deal?

I'm very curious to hear your answers.

Ike,

First off, ASA and Comair thought along the same line you do. That didn't seem to work out too well. Regionals seem to be bought and sold, and they aren't put on the same certificate. SWA is putting the AT planes on their own certificate, repainting the 737s and using 737-800 options that AT had, for their own pilots use. The merger between SWA and AT have planes the same size, (737) and use each other's facilities. Not the same as buying a smaller regional feed partner using RJs.

The flow up was a good deal for the Compass and some Mesaba pilots. No interview or medical, just a class date. Unbelievable. DL handles their own hiring, and they want some diversity, like military and regional/LCC pilots. They apparently want to have some control on who they hire.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flyboyike]

Ike,

First off, ASA and Comair thought along the same line you do. That didn't seem to work out too well. Regionals seem to be bought and sold, and they aren't put on the same certificate.

Indeed. The question I'm asking you is why not.

SWA is putting the AT planes on their own certificate, repainting the 737s and using 737-800 options that AT had, for their own pilots use. The merger between SWA and AT have planes the same size, (737) and use each other's facilities.

Indeed again. Which is why they are, in fact, integrating the FL pilot group. Apparently, not at the speed and in the manner that would be to your liking, but they are doing it nonetheless. Every single FL pilot will be a WN pilot. This is a fact even you can't deny.

Delta has not done that with their acquisitions and apparently doesn't intend to. I really don't see what the fact that these acquisitions have been of regional airlines (in other words, airlines who operate with a different business model than the acquiring carrier, just like WN and FL) has to do with this argument, which you clearly are making not only from the business standpoint, but from the moral one as well. You're saying (and I agree) that FL pilots should be integrated rapidly and fairly. For some reason, you're not applying that same standard to the pilots of airlines acquired by your company. The "they seem to be bought and sold and not put on the same certificate" statement is neither an explanation, nor a justification. It's a statement of fact, akin to "water seems to be wet".

WN, too, of course, handles its own hiring, wants some diversity, control over who they hire etc etc. Yet, they integrated the FL pilots.

Again, if there is a difference, I'd be glad to listen to you explain it to me. You haven't so far.

 

[Hardcorr]

Hey General, don't post much but you know who I am. Left Delta six years ago. Not sure it was a good desion with the stagnation and age 65 thing but I'll compare W2s any time. Busted my ass this summer at an average of 18000 a month. I know you can't do that at Delta. No lay overs in Midland. Pick a new lame SWA city to bag on. WE go to flint now. Hear the hotel sucks more than being in Midland



the lay over hotel sucks