Delta the Least Respected Brand in America

[canyonblue]

And the sundaes across the Atlantic beat your peanuts and pretzels. (And not only while deadheading, during cruise flight, too)


Bye Bye---General Lee

This comment is by far the funniest I have ever read by an "airline"pilot. You just have to be the child of an airline pilot, you have to be. I have never in my life heard an actual airline pilot brag about eating sundaes. That, and use a picture of Charlie Sheen as an avatar. Now go and yell at your Mom for some meatloaf.

 

[BobbyBiplane]

Well, I have flown 195,000 frequent flier miles so far this year ... all of in first or business class, most internationally. Delta is by far and away my preferred US carrier (in general I prefer, and my employer generally selects, non-US carriers).

I do not, for any reason, fly on continental trailways (I mean, Southwest). I recently drove Dallas to Houston to avoid a repeat of an earlier this year misadventure on these clowns.

Bob

 

[SWA Bubba]

And of course you can't make a concise answer, because you know you can't, you acute twit! Paying someone less money to fly the same sized plane is outsourcing, to the MAX. You jackholes just can't see it thanks to your bloviated egos. Guess what? You fly an old orange and purple 733 for 5 legs a day, ending up in Midland.

And the truth helps when debating. I speak it, you and Red dance around it. Tell me, what happened to that "Process Agreement" and the signature by your boss and the binding arbitration part? Tell us. Why did that go away, and do you agree with it?


Bye Bye---General Lee

Actually, I made a very concise answer (numerous times). Saying "the FIRST thing you do in a merger is pay equally for equal sized planes" (what you said), without any context at all, is the "fishy" part. The fact is, that as pilots ARE merged, they get SWAPA-negotiated pay. Until then, they're a separate company run under completely different rules, and they get the pay that they negotiated; the pay that their business model supports. You were right about one thing--that the truth helps when debating. What I just said IS the truth; what you do is just throw out opinions like they're fact.

The process agreement WAS followed. To the letter. It never "went away." We just never got to the part about arbitration, since there was a voted-in agreement first. You can debate all you want about which side acted in the best faith, but you can add this to the gigantic list of things you're wrong about.

Here's a tip about debating for you, General: when you ask a question, and it's answered, and then you don't like the answer, you don't just pretend it wasn't answered and ask it again. You ask specific follow-up questions. That's how it works.

However, I don't think an actual debate is what you really want. You just want to keep pretending that no one can possibly address your generalized, anti-SWA characterizations, most of which are half-truths, and the rest are complete BS.

Bubba

 

[SplitBar]

Yet Forbes has Delta ranked as the "Worlds Most Admired Air Line" for several years in a row. I'll give more credit to that reputable source as opposed to some random blogger who didn't include any other airlines in the survey.

 

[SWA Bubba]

And of course you can't make a concise answer, because you know you can't, you acute twit! Paying someone less money to fly the same sized plane is outsourcing, to the MAX. You jackholes just can't see it thanks to your bloviated egos. Guess what? You fly an old orange and purple 733 for 5 legs a day, ending up in Midland.



Bye Bye---General Lee

I just want to address this part separately, since you clearly have no idea what "outsourcing is."

Buying another airline, and absorbing their pilots and routes over a 2-1/2 year period, and paying them your wages as they're absorbed, is NOT outsourcing in any way whatsoever, especially not "to the MAX." It's called growth of your airline, albeit in the least-desired way for the employees. It's quick growth, but it is somewhat painful for everyone involved.

On the other hand, contracting out to another airline (or airlines) to do your flying for you, for half the wage, and to do it forever, IS outsourcing by definition. As far as "to the MAX," I suppose it depends on how much of this you do. Outsourcing 40-50% of your ASMs sounds like "max" to me, but I guess it's possible that someone else is doing more.

There you go--I hope that cleared up for you the issue of which airline "outsources." If you want to insult Southwest, you should at least find a way that doesn't make you look dumb just by saying it.

You're welcome.

Bubba

P.S. Speaking of "bloviated egos," I'd bet if there was an FI poll about egos, that one user named after the Dukes of Hazard car would win in a landslide. To the MAX!

 

[SWA Bubba]

Well, I have flown 195,000 frequent flier miles so far this year ... all of in first or business class, most internationally. Delta is by far and away my preferred US carrier (in general I prefer, and my employer generally selects, non-US carriers).

I do not, for any reason, fly on continental trailways (I mean, Southwest). I recently drove Dallas to Houston to avoid a repeat of an earlier this year misadventure on these clowns.

Bob

Good for you, Bobby. Maybe YOU should start a blog.

Bubba

 

[Nindiri]

GL, I think you might want to ease up a bit. I'm afraid you're going to cause a few of the SWA true-believers to have a stroke.

 

[redflyer65]

On the other hand, contracting out to another airline (or airlines) to do your flying for you, for half the wage, and to do it forever, IS outsourcing by definition. As far as "to the MAX," I suppose it depends on how much of this you do. Outsourcing 40-50% of your ASMs sounds like "max" to me, but I guess it's possible that someone else is doing more.



Bubba

Outsourced close to 1,000 airframes and more pilots than Southwest has ever had. Not even close to the purchase of another airline.

 

[General Lee]

I just want to address this part separately, since you clearly have no idea what "outsourcing is."

Buying another airline, and absorbing their pilots and routes over a 2-1/2 year period, and paying them your wages as they're absorbed, is NOT outsourcing in any way whatsoever, especially not "to the MAX." It's called growth of your airline, albeit in the least-desired way for the employees. It's quick growth, but it is somewhat painful for everyone involved.

On the other hand, contracting out to another airline (or airlines) to do your flying for you, for half the wage, and to do it forever, IS outsourcing by definition. As far as "to the MAX," I suppose it depends on how much of this you do. Outsourcing 40-50% of your ASMs sounds like "max" to me, but I guess it's possible that someone else is doing more.

There you go--I hope that cleared up for you the issue of which airline "outsources." If you want to insult Southwest, you should at least find a way that doesn't make you look dumb just by saying it.

You're welcome.

Bubba

P.S. Speaking of "bloviated egos," I'd bet if there was an FI poll about egos, that one user named after the Dukes of Hazard car would win in a landslide. To the MAX!

Blah blah blah! You sound like management. Sure, THEY wanted to blend people in at different rates, sounds great! Pilots in your union should have rejected it, it causes division. You know that.... So, you guys agreed to division. Great! That's not the way to do it. So, you and your group are the dumb ones, your majority agreed to ruining loyalty for years from 1/3 of your pilot group, except of course Maxblast. Enjoy that tool while laying over in Amarillo.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Blah blah blah! You sound like management. Sure, THEY wanted to blend people in at different rates, sounds great! Pilots in your union should have rejected it, it causes division. You know that.... So, you guys agreed to division. Great! That's not the way to do it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Again. Pure opinion with no factual basis as usual. That's your problem General, you try to debate on your opinion of something...then try and state it as fact (which it's not). You get that right?

 

[General Lee]

This comment is by far the funniest I have ever read by an "airline"pilot. You just have to be the child of an airline pilot, you have to be. I have never in my life heard an actual airline pilot brag about eating sundaes. That, and use a picture of Charlie Sheen as an avatar. Now go and yell at your Mom for some meatloaf.

Hmmm. After years of flying years at a "commuter" and then domestic 757/767 for years doing mainly turns to the Caribbean, I found the difference refreshing. INTL flying is totally different, (mx wise---not as many deferred items due to ETOPS requirements, different FA service, and even a menu for food, included for pilots!). That is something you will NEVER have, variety in service. You will still do your multiple leg days, flying people who are used to Greyhound. (Even though you aren't the cheapest ticket sometimes). I get to enjoy a sundae overflying Greenland, and you get to fill your mouth with a bag of peanuts over the Newman VOR. It's just the truth. Bye!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Again. Pure opinion with no factual basis as usual. That's your problem General, you try to debate on your opinion of something...then try and state it as fact (which it's not). You get that right?

Pure opinion? You don't want unity? Which view are you giving, management or pilot? Arbitration allows that because somebody other than the boss decides what is fair. You guys totally screwed it up, just ask the AT guys who ALL have to go to FO. (Say what????)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Pure opinion? You don't want unity? Which view are you giving, management or pilot? Arbitration allows that because somebody other than the boss decides what is fair. You guys totally screwed it up, just ask the AT guys who ALL have to go to FO. (Say what????)


Bye Bye---General Lee

General here are the facts (not opinion)....

The AirTran deal is done and over. Dec. 14' and every former AAI will be SW. And that's a good thing.

Your outsourcing is not.....it continues into eternity.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Well, I have flown 195,000 frequent flier miles so far this year ... all of in first or business class, most internationally. Delta is by far and away my preferred US carrier (in general I prefer, and my employer generally selects, non-US carriers).

I do not, for any reason, fly on continental trailways (I mean, Southwest). I recently drove Dallas to Houston to avoid a repeat of an earlier this year misadventure on these clowns.

Bob

Granted, DAL seems to be giving the least horrible service in the US, but to say that if given a choice in international travel you will chose DAL....? That is a stretch

 

[doh]

what the world needs now is a swimsuit competition between denny's waitresses and delta flight attendants.

Let's settle this once and for all.

???? ??

 

[Nindiri]

I have to admit, I've been pleasantly surprised by the friendly reception I've found at SWA. Almost all of the SWA guys have been really nice, a few even expressing genuine regret at how the company behaved during the negotiations. In any event, that's all done and over with, and we have to move on. We're all on the same team now.

My biggest concern now is the cowboy mentality that pervades this place. Reckless taxiing, unstable approaches, get it done at all costs attitudes, etc. Management is going to have to deal with this issue, hopefully before someone else gets hurt. Besides, I have a stake in the success of our combined companies now, and I don't want to see us dragged down by any more of the stupid preventable incidents and accidents that seem so common here the last few years.

 

[Tripower455]

Speaking of an agreement, didn't you guys have a "Process Agreement" that was signed by your boss, and it included binding arbitration if a SLI wasn't agreed upon? What happened to that? Answer that Red.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I'll answer it.....

THE SLI WAS AGREED UPON BY ALL PARTIES INVOLVED, by a large margin.

 

[Dan Roman]

I'll answer it.....

THE SLI WAS AGREED UPON BY ALL PARTIES INVOLVED, by a large margin.

I'm guessing you don't realize how your comment helps proves just how poorly SWA handled the merger.

 

[General Lee]

Granted, DAL seems to be giving the least horrible service in the US, but to say that if given a choice in international travel you will chose DAL....? That is a stretch

It seems to be the "safe" choice across the Pacific. The service is getting a lot better, new lie flat seats, PTVs, etc. You should know, you fly DL to MSP all the time. Hey, do you ever get mean stares from the ANA guys? Always wondered about that. They must give you the "ice stare" all the time. Hmmmm. Good luck with that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

Blah blah blah! You sound like management. Sure, THEY wanted to blend people in at different rates, sounds great! Pilots in your union should have rejected it, it causes division. You know that.... So, you guys agreed to division. Great! That's not the way to do it. So, you and your group are the dumb ones, your majority agreed to ruining loyalty for years from 1/3 of your pilot group, except of course Maxblast. Enjoy that tool while laying over in Amarillo.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Awesome! Some MORE "factual" arguments from the General: "Blah, blah, blah," and "You sound like management." Those sure sound like concise, definitive, and defendable arguments to me.

So, now you've changed from "outsourcing to the MAX" to "causing division." Well, I suppose in your mind, it may be the same thing. On the other hand, "causing division" is harder to actually define than "outsourcing," so I can see why you'd pick that mantra.

And what exactly do you mean by "blended at different rates"? Is that a sneaky way of repeating your previously debunked argument? The fact is, as FAT pilots are "blended," it's at the exact same payscale that every other Southwest pilot is on. Nothing different about it.

I realize that you aren't all that concerned with facts and all, but I thought I'd clear up a few things for you. FAT guys represent about 1/5th of the total pilot group, not 1/3. And every FAT guy I've run into so far has been pretty happy to be here at Southwest. Is everyone happy with the way things went down? Of course not, but that's true on both sides, and true with every SLI that' ever occurred in history.

As far as "dumb ones," I'd have to say that title goes to people like YOU, who spend more time and energy falsely "debating" another airline's issue than the players themselves. I suppose I'd have to also add Flopgut to that list as well, seeing as he has thus far volunteered to take a paycut, and to pay an blanket, unlimited assessment to ALPA, just to screw with Southwest.

Oh yeah, and as far as "division" goes, as of the end of 2014, there will be NO division of any sort. No fences, categories, set-asides, preferences for any pilot, of any sort whatsoever. Any pilot can fly from any base or seat that his seniority can hold. Why, that's even better than the DAL/NWA merger, where's there's fences and stuff for years. That sounds a lot like "division" to me.....

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

I'll answer it.....

THE SLI WAS AGREED UPON BY ALL PARTIES INVOLVED, by a large margin.

Hilarious! What happened just prior to the vote? You guys are now the laughing stock along with the US Easties. Tell me, why would the AT guys "give in" and allow a vote when the process agreement, signed by your boss, stated binding arbitration was the next step if a SLI wasn't agreed upon? Answer that genius. You just won't....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

I'm guessing you don't realize how your comment helps proves just how poorly SWA handled the merger.

I'm guessing that you don't realize how your comment(s) helps prove just how poorly YOU understand all that went on in the acquisition. Let me know if you'd like some clarification.

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Awesome! Some MORE "factual" arguments from the General: "Blah, blah, blah," and "You sound like management." Those sure sound like concise, definitive, and defendable arguments to me.

So, now you've changed from "outsourcing to the MAX" to "causing division." Well, I suppose in your mind, it may be the same thing. On the other hand, "causing division" is harder to actually define than "outsourcing," so I can see why you'd pick that mantra.

And what exactly do you mean by "blended at different rates"? Is that a sneaky way of repeating your previously debunked argument? The fact is, as FAT pilots are "blended," it's at the exact same payscale that every other Southwest pilot is on. Nothing different about it.

I realize that you aren't all that concerned with facts and all, but I thought I'd clear up a few things for you. FAT guys represent about 1/5th of the total pilot group, not 1/3. And every FAT guy I've run into so far has been pretty happy to be here at Southwest. Is everyone happy with the way things went down? Of course not, but that's true on both sides, and true with every SLI that' ever occurred in history.

As far as "dumb ones," I'd have to say that title goes to people like YOU, who spend more time and energy falsely "debating" another airline's issue than the players themselves. I suppose I'd have to also add Flopgut to that list as well, seeing as he has thus far volunteered to take a paycut, and to pay an blanket, unlimited assessment to ALPA, just to screw with Southwest.

Oh yeah, and as far as "division" goes, as of the end of 2014, there will be NO division of any sort. No fences, categories, set-asides, preferences for any pilot, of any sort whatsoever. Any pilot can fly from any base or seat that his seniority can hold. Why, that's even better than the DAL/NWA merger, where's there's fences and stuff for years. That sounds a lot like "division" to me.....

Bubba

You guys screwed it up. Right away in the DL merger, everyone was brought whole. A joint contract with equal pay was a priority. Everyone watched how the USAir guys went for the SLI first, and that was avoided. So, equal pay, then SLI, the Recipe to a successful integration. You guys saw what happened between both mergers, and had the ability to do it correctly, but you F'd it up.

Your blah blah about 2014 yada yada is irrelevant. You already caused a lack of unity that could last a long time, and you caused many of your peers to think that the AT guys got hosed. But, you don't care, you are the biggest plane in Midland....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

Hilarious! What happened just prior to the vote? You guys are now the laughing stock along with the US Easties. Tell me, why would the AT guys "give in" and allow a vote when the process agreement, signed by your boss, stated binding arbitration was the next step if a SLI wasn't agreed upon? Answer that genius. You just won't....


Bye Bye---General Lee

I'll give you a hint: In the process agreement (which you clearly haven't read), both unions AGREED to send the negotiated agreement to their respective constituencies for a vote. THEN, and only then, the next step was mediation and arbitration, IF either side voted down the agreement. It became clear that the ALPA leadership at AirTran had absolutely NO intention of honoring their word and allowing a vote. They were pushing to go straight to arbitration from the get-go.

That's why, General. Anything ELSE you'd like answered?

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

I'm guessing that you don't realize how your comment(s) helps prove just how poorly YOU understand all that went on in the acquisition. Let me know if you'd like some clarification.

Bubba

Ahahahaaha! Dan Roman sees it too, and he isn't a part of our argument. You guys and the US Easties took advantage of the other side. That didn't happen in the DL/NW merger, neutrals took care of the SLI. You can't see the difference.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I'll give you a hint: In the process agreement (which you clearly haven't read), both unions AGREED to send the negotiated agreement to their respective constituencies for a vote. THEN, and only then, the next step was mediation and arbitration, IF either side voted down the agreement. It became clear that the ALPA leadership at AirTran had absolutely NO intention of honoring their word and allowing a vote. They were pushing to go straight to arbitration from the get-go.

That's why, General. Anything ELSE you'd like answered?

Bubba

Their elected representatives voted NO, and someone didn't like that. That is in the ALPA by laws. That is allowed. Someone then had a hissyfit. Tell me that didn't happen.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

I'm guessing you don't realize how your comment helps proves just how poorly SWA handled the merger.

I responded, against my better judgement, to the troll's comment about the process agreement. How does that "prove" anything?

The SLI was voted on, and approved by all parties, in accordance with the process agreement. How or why it was doesn't change that fact.

 

[Tripower455]

Hilarious! What happened just prior to the vote? You guys are now the laughing stock along with the US Easties. Tell me, why would the AT guys "give in" and allow a vote when the process agreement, signed by your boss, stated binding arbitration was the next step if a SLI wasn't agreed upon? Answer that genius. You just won't....


Bye Bye---General Lee

Doesn't matter. Every one of your "questions" has been answered a billion times already.

Isn't this a Delta thread?

 

[redflyer65]

You guys screwed it up. Right away in the DL merger, everyone was brought whole. A joint contract with equal pay was a priority. Everyone watched how the USAir guys went for the SLI first, and that was avoided. So, equal pay, then SLI, the Recipe to a successful integration. You guys saw what happened between both mergers, and had the ability to do it correctly, but you F'd it up.

Your blah blah about 2014 yada yada is irrelevant. You already caused a lack of unity that could last a long time, and you caused many of your peers to think that the AT guys got hosed. But, you don't care, you are the biggest plane in Midland....


Bye Bye---General Lee

Are you seriously insinuating that some Northwest guys didn't get the shaft in your SLI? That's funny.

Here's another hint....

The NW/DL merger is done and over, and..

So is the SW/AT merger. But for some reason GL likes to still bring up history. Do you see anyone else on here talking about the DL merger? Why? Because it's over and done. Pointless.

 

[waveflyer]

WHY? Do you guys respond to everything GL posts?