Age limit will increase to 67 by years end.

[Flopgut]

If you are looking for fairness, the Airline Industry ain't the place.

Never has been. Never will be.

If you didn't realize the risks going into it, you should have taken a job with the Government.

I hope if you are investing for your retirement you stick to Treasuries as opposed to Equities...then again.....maybe not....nothing is for certain except taxes and Big Government.

Don't like big government? Why did guys like you beg big government for a handout? It happened to be in the form of a age change, but you wanted any handout you could get. AND you're obviously addicted to it, since you just got the big handout you wanted and you are out begging for another. You're no better thatn the worst welfare offenders.

I just turned 50. How old are you?
Lets face it. This isn't about fitness or skill or mental acuity. This is about wanting what the other guy has and playing the victim card. And if you can't have what the other guy has for whatever reason, the next step is to ridicule, mock or denigrate that individual. That's the way we do things here in America now. It's easy. Everyone gets a First Place Trophy.

Uh, you're the offender here pal. The hammer fell on the old guys and you were going to have to finish the season with no trophy [pension]. So you bawled and cried to the coach [big government] about how it was unfair someone else might get a better deal than you. You campaigned for what someone else was going to get. And now you are campaigning for it again. And btw: I call BS on just turning 50 with 25k hours. Very convenient number for a very young age.

Mocking, vilifying and denigrating your fellow pilots solely because you are upset at a federal government rule that is delaying your ability to upgrade.

Oh yes, I do see the irony, especially from you who see's himself as the "why can't we all just get along" type of guy.........

Until your ox is gored......then you revert to the meanest, nastiest, jerk around.

Yes, I DO see the irony. And I am looking forward to your 60 th birthday when you hang it up... But I bet you won't. Because guys like you are hypocrites.

Be real careful throwing around the term hypocrite.

 

[Flopgut]

Anyone read Outliers by Malcom Gladwell? He mentions a "Theory of ethnicity in plane crashes". I'm still reading this part, but it appears one could also theorize that ageism could replace ethnicity as it relates to our profession (instead of "crashes"). This ridiculous charge to uphold advanced age over everything else is just as backward as letting ethnicity crash airplanes. But both still seem to be happening. It's complete BS to say a pilot could not fly past 60 when it always had been an option. However, that's the loudest outrage you hear out of certain pilots! And now just as retirement progression starts again, the same old pilots roll out the same ageism speak like nothing ever happened. This is failed to begin with because in our case as pilots, it's really not the advanced age that these pilots want to protect, it's their own seniority that they happen to have.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

This will happen for the following reasons.

1. Pilot shortage in EU
2. Mainline CEOs in the U.S. realize that keeping guys on longer costs less because:
a. moving a guy off the top creates a huge number training events.
b. It preserves the guys working in the sweatshop "regional partner" system
c. Almost anyone who would be upgrading into the left seat is already topped out
3. The Baby Boomers want it and they are the largest, loudest, and most organized voting block in the country.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Now to the point of can a 70 year old be capable of flying as a Captain. Answer is some yes and some no. The problem really is that the U.S. airman medical system is very weak and isn't really set up to detect these issues in the first place. A lot of us, myself included wouldn't be able to pass a flight physical from other places in the world, particularly Asia. All the U.S. system is set up to do is make sure guys aren't dropping dead in the seat on a regular basis. Also the safety systems in place are very slow to relieve someone from command for incompetence so there is very little chance that a guy who is no longer mentally or physically up to the task will be pushed out that way.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

So the lesson in this for those of us not near the top of our mainline careers is that we don't want to be the guys who climb on board the ship and pull the ladder up behind us. If we want to leave this profession better than we found it we need to undo some of the crap that has been done. Mostly we can do this by fighting tooth and nail to reverse the scope trend and race to the bottom it creates for those coming up behind us.

 

[nordo_2]

"If he knows of professional incompetence... he will not shrink from revealing this
to the proper authorities within ALPA"

That's the part that you must have overlooked.

Never happens. Pro standards will accomplish what the parties involved agree to. If one or more pilots are uninterested, pro standards will do nothing. It's a toothless idea. It is useful for maybe minor disputes.

 

[nordo_2]

Where does it say that a pilot should by-pass the Professional Standards.
Safety or other committees set up to handle these issues.

Better yet, if you think these committees aren't doing their jobs, why don't you volunteer your time and help them do it better.

Common sense tells you this. ALPA's committee process for pro standards is window dressing.

 

[kwick]

Common sense tells you this. ALPA's committee process for pro standards is window dressing.

The problem with a "Code of Ethics," is that there are the few unethical people that always try to rationalize their unethical behaviour.

 

[nordo_2]

Maybe, if a few Captains bypassed Pro-Standards, and wrote letters
about you as you did, they might save a whole generation of F/Os
from flying with a real DH.

Ya buddy the sword cuts both ways. My guess would be a few of those letters would have gone like this: I respectfully recuse myself from flight duty's with this pilot for safety of flight issues, example: I observed this pilot not acting a fool, doing his job, not yelling at people, not acting like he works out of his living room.

I live a simple life. I come to work. I read the checklist. Do my job. I don't say stupid shi%, go home and collect the pay check. I leave nothing for the dinks.

 

[nordo_2]

The problem with a "Code of Ethics," is that there are the few unethical people that always try to rationalize their unethical behaviour.

You should immediately report me to Pro-Standards. They'll fix my wagon won't they?

 

[kwick]

You should immediately report me to Pro-Standards. They'll fix my wagon won't they?[/QUOT



I'm sure they already know who you are.

I don't condone yelling at someone, or being a jerk, but that doesn't make
someone an "unsafe pilot."

Maybe, the Pro-Standards committee at your airline disagrees with your
definition of "safety."

 

[eaglesview]

Don't like big government? Why did guys like you beg big government for a handout? It happened to be in the form of a age change, but you wanted any handout you could get. AND you're obviously addicted to it, since you just got the big handout you wanted and you are out begging for another. You're no better thatn the worst welfare offenders.

Surely you acknowledge this is a bit of a stretch. "No better than the worst welfare offenders.)????

 

[pilotyip]

No one has mentioned that 2007 to 2012 were safest 5 years in airline history. Keeping experience in the cockpit has to be part of this.

 

[Flopgut]

Surely you acknowledge this is a bit of a stretch. "No better than the worst welfare offenders.)????

I'm not sure the context is too far off really? This Sacha guy is a real POS. If he is what he says he is (if) then what's he need 67 for? Obviously he's the type person that will never have enough until others have nothing.

I fly with the UAL furloughs. Great pilots and people, all very highly experienced. There is not one of them who won't be able to describe going back to work after 65 and not having an older pilot rub their nose in it. Not in anything less than an overt way, even when it was obvious that the younger worker was getting furloughed. The only pilots interested in seeing 67 (or any further increase) are the sick bastards who want to see more blood on the floor.

Of course I realize I'm a CAL pilot involved in SLI and that our own MEC's position toward these furloughs does not look favorable. All I can say is the end result will be balanced. The dirty laundry got aired, no back room SLI deals. The furloughs will not be stapled.

 

[Flopgut]

No one has mentioned that 2007 to 2012 were safest 5 years in airline history. Keeping experience in the cockpit has to be part of this.

You have to also keep in mind the worst accident [Buffalo] occurred mostly because there was a lack of experience in the cockpit. Raising the retirement age put thousands of experienced pilots out of work. As a result of the reckless manner in which it was changed, there was no effort made to allocate the experienced pilots across the profession. Seeing the harmful effects of the age change on others was just as important to the old, angry, treacherous pro age 65 guys as receiving the positive effects were. So 3407 get's caught in the crossfire. If the retirement age had been raised the right way (without seniority aggression and in consideration of broader safety impacts) those two inexperienced pilots might not have been flying together.

 

[Abernathy]

No one has mentioned that 2007 to 2012 were safest 5 years in airline history. Keeping experience in the cockpit has to be part of this.

I find that hard to believe with the number of deadly and catastrophic accidents in those 5 years.

Where'd you get that statistic?

Based on your logic, I can also argue that any particular safe year prior to age 65 legislation was due in part to the number of pilots who left at 60.

 

[Flybywire44]

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 10:59 AM, USAPA Government Affairs Committee ‪<[email protected]>‬ wrote:


Government Affairs Committee

July 3, 2013

Age 67 Retirement Hoax
By now you have probably heard a rumor and seen an authentic looking email about the mandatory retirement age going to 67. There is NO verifiable evidence that any change to the Age 65 rule is being considered by any Congressional Committee or Governmental Agency at this time. Web boards have reported differently, but we can find no evidence from any credible source that this is true. CAPA met with Administrator Michael Huerta in DC two weeks ago, and the last question of our 45-minute meeting, which included Larry Rooney; Mark Niles; Maryann Demarco; and Pete Machtel, was a question from Pete regarding extending the mandatory retirement age. Mr. Huerta stated that there has been NO discussion on the issue. Shown below is the original announcement from 2007 dealing with the change from 60 to 65, as well as*****a portion of the HOAX email from 2012.
Government Affairs Committee
------------------------------------------
*****
REAL ANNOUNCEMENT from 2007:
*****
Release No. AOC 03-07
January 30, 2007
Contact: Alison Duquette*****
Phone:*****(202) 267-3883

WASHINGTON, D.C. ? Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Administrator Marion C. Blakey today announced that the FAA will propose to raise the mandatory retirement age for U.S. commercial pilots from 60 to 65. Speaking before pilots and aviation experts at the National Press Club, Blakey said that the agency plans to propose adopting the new International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard that allows one pilot to be up to age 65 provided the other pilot is under age 60.
The FAA plans to issue a formal Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) later this year and will publish a final rule after careful consideration of all public comments, as required by law.
?A pilot?s experience counts ? it?s an added margin of safety,? said Blakey. ?Foreign airlines have demonstrated that experienced pilots in good health can fly beyond age 60 without compromising safety.?
On September 27, 2006, Administrator Blakey established a group of airline, labor and medical experts to recommend whether the United States should adopt the new ICAO standard and determine what actions would be necessary if the FAA were to change its rule. The Age 60 Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) did not reach a consensus recommendation but did provide detailed insight and analysis that will be helpful as the FAA develops a rule.
Since 1959, the FAA has required that all U.S. pilots stop flying commercial airplanes at age 60. In November 2006, ICAO, the United Nations? aviation organization, increased the upper age limit for pilots to age 65, provided that the other pilot is under age 60.
The November 29, 2006 Age 60 ARC report, appendices, and public comments are available online at*****www.regulations.gov, docket number 26139.
*****
HOAX EMAIL from 2012:
Subject: FAA propose to raise mandatory age to 67
WASHINGTON, D.C. " Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Administrator Michael Huerta today announced that the FAA will propose to raise the mandatory retirement age for U.S. commercial pilots from 65 to 67. Speaking before pilots and aviation experts at the National Press Club, Huerta said that the agency plans to propose adopting the new International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard that allows one pilot to be up to age 67 provided the other pilot is under age 60. "

Boom.... Roasted. :smash:

 

[waveflyer]

No one has mentioned that 2007 to 2012 were safest 5 years in airline history. Keeping experience in the cockpit has to be part of this.

I'd also like to know what data you use to make such a statement?

Please, cite your sources.

(But know, I've already begun my research- and when you consider global statistics - {you know, we HAD to change age upward bc everyone else was doing it...} you aren't going to like what you find.

In addition- safety data can't be relegated to major accidents only.

I was on FI when this rule change was being debated and occurred. Ever see me write about it? I hated the cold turkey implementation, but I agreed that 60 was young. Now I don't believe anyone ought to captain an airliner after age 60- and that comes from my direct experience - the majority are safe 1 out of 3, 1 out of 5- I have to watch- in essence, I'm the defacto captain without the legal authority, position, or paycheck.

I have serious issues with that.

Most 60+ pilots are at majors flying with very experienced FOs who have been captains for a long time before.
Do not discount what our group is saying and punish us for keeping the aircraft safe-

Keep the experience in the flight deck yip- just keep it in the right seat where captains actually get paid to watch and assess them.

 

[texman]

Pilotyip,

Their is a difference between experience, and to have the mental capacity or memory to apply that experience.

 

[pilotyip]

To the best of my memory there was one 121 fatal accident. Colgan 3407. Please correct me if I am wrong Again all of this is pure get out if my seat the same as 6 years ago