Age limit will increase to 67 by years end.

[pilotyip]

Please tell me those weren't the only two pilots on board?

nothing to worry about the 81 year old crew chief was with them, we havin fun yet?

 

[Flopgut]

nothing to worry about the 81 year old crew chief was with them, we havin fun yet?

Anybody around this little endeavor ever say something like just because we can do this, should we?

And how do you know everyone's age?

*It's almost like the B17 is a sideshow to you. You seem far more interested in getting the oldest pilot possible into the air.

 

[Andy]

Nothing to worry about, the 95 year old was flying with a 62 year old DAL Captain.

Similar crew, except the captain was younger: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/fulltext/AAB0606.html

 

[Flopgut]

This was a bad one. BUT could have been a lot worse. (Landed on fire near a school)

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8187278

You got to be smart around these things Yip. Is a 95 year old at the controls a smart idea? With a 62 year old pilot in the other seat? Sounds like it might be a bit of a dumb op to me. The mechanic side of me then wonders what your maintenance is like. Maybe it's great. But there have been enough problems around these things that a guy like you ought to start asking yourself some questions. You guys screw up bad and these things will get parked. Don't ruin stuff like this for the rest of us!

 

[pilotyip]

The mechanic side of me then wonders what your maintenance is like. Maybe it's great.

Check with the B-17 co-op people, they will tell you that the "Yankee Lady" is best maintained B-17 out there. Still has the factory Turbo-charger system. It fun to post this stuff cause many people really get all worked about this age thing.

Similar crew, except the captain was younger: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/fulltext/AAB0606.html

That because there has never been an accident with a pilot under the age of 60. Everyone looses there mind the minute after turning 60, but no one under the magic moment ever had a "Brain Fart"

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Lets be honest, this is about money, nothing more. The worst aviation accident in history was captained by under 60 aged pilots. So be careful when throwing rocks, the 410 club crew were under 60 as well, this is about entitlement grade booger eaters wanting the cake, and being denied. Argue how ever you want, and be honest it's about money. The old guys want to continue making it and the younger guys are pissed they are being obstructed by the old guys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Veldhuyzen_van_Zanten

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Klaas_Meurs

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Victor_Grubbs

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Robert_Bragg

And:

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2004-11.html

All under 60.....

 

[Flopgut]

Check with the B-17 co-op people, they will tell you that the "Yankee Lady" is best maintained B-17 out there. Still has the factory Turbo-charger system. It fun to post this stuff cause many people really get all worked about this age thing.

All right then, that's good. Keep taking care of that airplane. And take care of that 95 year old too. God Bless him for being able to participate, but I think you ought to take at least two pilots when he goes. Don't push the guy, or let him feel pushed. I'm sure the guy flying that P51 didn't want his last memory to be augering into the crowd at Reno.

 

[SIG600]

Yip, it's the other way around. It's your generation that has "get out of my seat" syndrome (and get off my lawn syndrome). Those seats belonged to the next generation of pilots. .as they always had.. but it was the boomers who told the rest of us "get out of my seat". And then had the balls to sit there and act like they were entitled to it because they think they were the only generation who'd "paid their dues". Try spending 7 years in the right seat at a regional. You can tell me all about the guys who sat sideways for 10 years but they weren't making regional wages back then.

Air Traffic Controllers retire at 57. Why do you think that is? Because they have to think quickly and stay sharp. And you lose that in old age. It's part of the natural cycle. Accept it.

Shack.

The boomers moved the goal posts to benefit themselves. Yip why do you even care? I find it ironic you keep scraping the bottom to underpay and over work guys selling them the same dream you advocate moving the goal posts of.

Just had a 95 year old pilot fly our B-17, still has a current FAA second class medical. Did a good job. He has been flying since 1935. Was a B-17 Instructor pilot during WWII. He told us the the FAA won't let him fly on his 135 certificate anymore. So maybe the Feds have an upper limit of 95 for 135 ops. Good to hear I have aanother 25 years of flyign the DA-20 in fromt of me. ha ha

That's great. I love stories like this, but lets see him (or you for that matter) pass a 787/A3x0 type.

 

[Mamma]

Lets be honest, this is about money, nothing more. The worst aviation accident in history was captained by under 60 aged pilots. So be careful when throwing rocks, the 410 club crew were under 60 as well, this is about entitlement grade booger eaters wanting the cake, and being denied. Argue how ever you want, and be honest it's about money. The old guys want to continue making it and the younger guys are pissed they are being obstructed by the old guys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Veldhuyzen_van_Zanten

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Klaas_Meurs

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Victor_Grubbs

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Robert_Bragg

And:

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2004-11.html

All under 60.....

These accidents happened when there were no over 60 pilots in 121 flying. In addition, there have been huge advancements in CRM that were not there during Tenerife. I think the CRM advancements and technology like EGPWS, LLWS, TCAS, airfield surface radar and a host of others have helped prevent many accidents. The fact still remains that you as a captain have not flown with the older crowd and cannot comment on what happens. The FO is not paid to babysit, man the fort while the old guy sleeps or mitigate a host of other things that happen. Most pilots cannot fight the effects of aging and it shows to the FOs that fly with them. Not all, but enough to raise alarm.

 

[waveflyer]

What question was that?, you have sent me many. Besides it is normally futile, you have already made up your mind and any answers I give would be quickly refuted. Besides my answers don't really count, after all would would an old guy working for a non-sked know anyway.

Nice argument- just a troll then? You have no facts or experience to back up your claims-

Well, that's not unusual on FI now is it

 

[waveflyer]

Shack.

The boomers moved the goal posts to benefit themselves. Yip why do you even care? I find it ironic you keep scraping the bottom to underpay and over work guys selling them the same dream you advocate moving the goal posts of.




That's great. I love stories like this, but lets see him (or you for that matter) pass a 787/A3x0 type.

Perfectly said with yiptroll

 

[waveflyer]

These accidents happened when there were no over 60 pilots in 121 flying. In addition, there have been huge advancements in CRM that were not there during Tenerife. I think the CRM advancements and technology like EGPWS, LLWS, TCAS, airfield surface radar and a host of others have helped prevent many accidents. The fact still remains that you as a captain have not flown with the older crowd and cannot comment on what happens. The FO is not paid to babysit, man the fort while the old guy sleeps or mitigate a host of other things that happen. Most pilots cannot fight the effects of aging and it shows to the FOs that fly with them. Not all, but enough to raise alarm.

I'd say 15-25% is an accurate range of unsafe 60+ year olds,

hey pro age increase guys?

What percentage of captains should I be faced with the awkward situation of doing their job, w/o authority or pay, before we stop allowing pilots to captain past age 60?

Why on earth would anyone find it acceptable for an FO to take on such a task? And yes- that very much IS about money, but also authority. Should I be paid less to do someone else's job?- babysit someone who ought to be my superior?

I never felt strongly about this, but now I'm senior enough to fly with the ore 60 crowd, and now they are old enough to really see the effects of this extra 5 years experiment.

Fly til you die, just do it from the right seat. Everybody wins- except for the 60+ egos.

 

[pilotyip]

All right then, that's good. Keep taking care of that airplane. And take care of that 95 year old too. God Bless him for being able to participate, but I think you ought to take at least two pilots when he goes. Don't push the guy, or let him feel pushed. I'm sure the guy flying that P51 didn't want his last memory to be augering into the crowd at Reno.

This was on the guys "Bucket List", we let him buy the gas and get a couple hours in the bird. He lives in Alaska, He said he will come back on his 100th birthday and do it again. That might make the national news.

Shack.

The boomers moved the goal posts to benefit themselves. Yip why do you even care? I find it ironic you keep scraping the bottom to underpay and over work guys selling them the same dream you advocate moving the goal posts of.

Where have I ever said that JUS is any place but a place to come and pay your dues to get the magic 1000 hr TJ PIC. It has been a great launching place for career jobs at SWA, JB, DAL, Spirit, FedEx, UPS, Atlas, NJ, Corporate, etc. If the place was so bad why would 5 furloughed NJ guys apply for jobs, or the furloughed DAL guys back in 2001 call and ask to come back for 4-5 years. I stay in touch with many of our former pilots and share stories of the good ole days. They get solid 121 training that allows them to be ready for the next move and it one of the options to pay your dues.

Perfectly said with yiptroll

yea whatever from the source of all knowledge in aviation. Here let me start an exchange with you, the sky is blue.

 

[flyboyike]

Lets be honest, this is about money, nothing more. The worst aviation accident in history was captained by under 60 aged pilots. So be careful when throwing rocks, the 410 club crew were under 60 as well, this is about entitlement grade booger eaters wanting the cake, and being denied. Argue how ever you want, and be honest it's about money. The old guys want to continue making it and the younger guys are pissed they are being obstructed by the old guys.

Heck, I'll stipulate to your greed point. What I'd like to know is why my greed is any more immoral than the gummer's greed.

 

[madjack]

It's not, the "gummers" got their first...

 

[pilotyip]

Lets be honest, this is about money, nothing more. The worst aviation accident in history was captained by under 60 aged pilots. So be careful when throwing rocks, the 410 club crew were under 60 as well, this is about entitlement grade booger eaters wanting the cake, and being denied. Argue how ever you want, and be honest it's about money. The old guys want to continue making it and the younger guys are pissed they are being obstructed by the old guys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Veldhuyzen_van_Zanten

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Klaas_Meurs

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Victor_Grubbs

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Robert_Bragg

And:

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2004-11.html

All under 60.....

too much reality in this post for FI. This is all about pure get out of my seat, and the safety flag is waved. No one can be against safety so when you don't agree you are anti-safety.

 

[livin'thesim]

And why shouldn't you get out of my seat.

It is my seat. Just because you stole my car doesn't make it your car.

You had five extra years at my expense. Isn't that enough? I suppose not for a greedy old stooge.

 

[Flopgut]

Lets be honest, this is about money, nothing more. The worst aviation accident in history was captained by under 60 aged pilots. So be careful when throwing rocks, the 410 club crew were under 60 as well, this is about entitlement grade booger eaters wanting the cake, and being denied. Argue how ever you want, and be honest it's about money. The old guys want to continue making it and the younger guys are pissed they are being obstructed by the old guys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Veldhuyzen_van_Zanten

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Klaas_Meurs

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Victor_Grubbs

http://tenerifecrash.wikia.com/wiki/Robert_Bragg

And:

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2004-11.html

All under 60.....

It's not that simple. We are headed toward way bigger problems IMHO. I mentioned Gladwell's book Outliers earlier, and after yesterday I think we'll all hear more about it. Big part of the book talks about Korean airlines and their culture (ethnicity theory in plane crashes). Our professional airline culture is headed toward this same problem. We may not wreck airplanes (yet), but this culture shift is certainly wrecking the profession/industry in our Country. Putting value on age alone over anyone else's contributions, talents, and experience is the wrong thing to be doing. Case in point: Yip couldn't care less about a young pilot, no matter what experience he or she has. Conversely, he'll kowtow to the 95 year old. We're seeing this in all facets of this profession and industry. The cabin crew did a heck of a job yesterday getting the passengers out. In fact, some of the FAs were carrying passengers. I flew yesterday with a FA around 70 years old who couldn't carry her own weight!! (she was around 200 lbs.) She would have been a complete liability in a scenario like yesterday. But, she's old, so her rights transcend anything else.

Gladwells "ethinic theory of plane crashes" might demonstrate the exact opposite for post accident plane evacuations? (Again, in line with the author's theory, the same reasons that might lead the Korean pilots to wreck the airplane had the equal opposite result with the cabin crew. Koreans want young, fit FAs and they can obviously evac an airplane well) Both sides of the cockpit door have unique problems that seem opposite between how things are done in Korea vs. here is the US. But it ought to be obvious that unchecked ageism, or serving only the whim of older workers no matter any other factors, is ultimately going to be unsafe. And in this Country, this industry, at this time, AGE is the only thing we seem to care about.

Besides, the money situation has changed big time. If your time off is worth anything then your not going to get the big dollars. There is no more big W2s for 50% work. It's about what you spend and less about what you make. The only pilots left who really don't understand that are mostly over the age of 60.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip couldn't care less about a young pilot, no matter what experience he or she has.

Now what exactly is meant by this? I am the the DA20 standards I don't set pay, days off or any of that stuff. But I fight everyday to make it a better place to work. I care greatly, I want to see them succeed, I want to give them the best training available at this level of the business. I want to see them move on to career jobs. Where else does a SE prop driver make it to 121 TJ PIC to get the resume fluff that lands a job at SWA, Atlas, DAL, etc? They are my friends and I do everything I can to help them make the next step. It is not about me it is about them reaching the promise land that I never got to see.

Again if it so bad why our former pilots call here when they are unemployed?

 

[Flopgut]

Now what exactly is meant by this?

When I wrote that the first time I used Andy as an example of the younger pilot. Made more sense that way I guess. What you do with the DA20 and for those you're in charge of is great. However, you couldn't give two cents if Andy get's his teeth kicked in every 3-5 years by the cake eater generation who wrote age 65. How you can see a difference between the 95 year old guy and Andy, I don't understand. They are almost the same guy.