AirTran MEC CYA

[redflyer65]

Here is repost of what I told roomwithaview back in March.

I am so sick of people spewing this BS. The payrates we have today are the same as what was negotiated in the 2007 TA that we turned down. Southwest did not walk in and give us anything more than what we had already negotiated long ago. Did they force our management to speed up the process? Sure. But SWA didn't give us anything. So please stop proclaiming things that you know nothing about.

Wait a minute. You voted against it before you voted for it? Genius!

Your payrates, like everything else, were taken as a snapshot the day the purchase was announced. Whether you were one month away from a new contract on your own, or 4 years away.

The work rules and pay package is what you were working under right? If you want to distort the facts, then have at it. That's when I call BS.

 

[scoreboardII]

Yeah but deal was done in May 2012 and the transitions had already started by then. It would've been nice to know for sure. According to Howard, everything said the 717's were going away. According to Russ M. and Co., they will be around for a while. Everyone bid accordingly.
I know they are good negotiators. After all they are airline management. They have to be. But they could have gotten something. Many of us thought at first that perhaps a gate swap. Get all of C and send ASA/DL to D. Of course after last weeks announcement of de-hubbing ATL, that was not even at play. I wouldn't be surprised if SW gave up half the gates at c. Parked only on say the even numbered gates. DL gets the odd number gates and flies the 717's against us on the same routes. Still don't think I shouldn't have heartburn?

I think you are forgetting to consider what its NOT going to cost SWA to let the 717's go. My understanding is even though we are paying Big D to take them, we make out ahead by what we don't have to shell out to run them (second airframe training MX, leases, fuel, schedule problems etc.). Hundreds of millions is my understanding, pushing half a Bil in savings by paying D to take them off our hand. Sort of like a short sale on the house you want to get out from under.

 

[redflyer65]

I think you are forgetting to consider what its NOT going to cost SWA to let the 717's go. My understanding is even though we are paying Big D to take them, we make out ahead by what we don't have to shell out to run them (second airframe training MX, leases, fuel, schedule problems etc.). Hundreds of millions is my understanding, pushing half a Bil in savings by paying D to take them off our hand. Sort of like a short sale on the house you want to get out from under.

The number I saw was a savings of over 100 million every year that we don't have them on property.

Pilot, Mx, FA training. The cost of possibly moving the sims. The second line of maintenance and the parts required to sustain another fleet. It's a pretty big number that goes away with the Delta deal....even after you factor in the cost to re-brand them for Delta.

 

[HowardBorden]

That is the number I have heard as well: 100 million savings every year they are NOT on property. Of course that number takes into account those airframees being replaced by 737's. So, delay some 300's from retiring and fish for some more used 700's on the open market that combined with the deliveries of 737's already coming as firm orders and you are way ahead financially as opposed keeping them.

 

[717capt]

Yeah I read it Howard. I was just trying to get your post numbers up. Looks like I'm doing a good job. You know I heard when you get to a 1000 you get a free blender or something. Just kidding. You're actually one of the few on here that backs up their statement with print or facts.

I know the article or blog or whatever mentions over and over their going. And yes a while could be 1 day or 1 year or 10 years and in this case your right. As it turns out, it meant 4 years. I guess the big question is and what we're all really talking about here is what the arbitrator will say. Also in response to the $$$ savings in getting rid of the airplanes. Yeah that's probably an accurate number and yeah it does make business sense, but don't forget that these guys are accountants. They can make 1+1 equal to whatever they want. In any event, we've beaten this thing to death. Although I think that there is still a little bit of life left in this horse. Hell you should read our internal forum. Hey btw.. who did you fly metro's for? Was it for Atlantic City express or Bader Express or whatever the name was?

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I don't know about Howard but I think GL was a master at "Bader Express"

 

[HowardBorden]

who did you fly metro's for? Was it for Atlantic City express or Bader Express or whatever the name was?

Many years of night freight. It was 15+ years ago and I'm still tired. If I never see backside of the clock flying ever again I will be a happy man.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,

Explain to me how you envision "the golden rule" playing out through an SLI process.

Simple: stick to both the letter and the spirit of the Process Agreement, don't threaten to end the careers of one party if they insist on using the entire process in the agreement, and carry through with the integration after an arbitrator's award, just like they said they would.

When I talk about the "golden rule" lie that SWA tells, I'm not talking about the pilots, SWAPA, or any specific integration methodology. I'm only talking about management not lying and threatening people. Lies and threats don't go with the "golden rule," and claiming that it's "just business" doesn't cut it. Either you believe in following the golden role or you don't. If you do, it should apply to business just like it applies to personal relationships.

 

[waveflyer]

You and your union had a role in this PCL-
The golden rule doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want

We all tried to tell you that LUV and the golden rule doesn't mean we're "soft"-
You know damn well you were trying to leverage our culture for your own gain- and look ^^^ you're still trying to.

That won't ever work here. And that's a good thing.

 

[redflyer65]

We all tried to tell you that LUV and the golden rule doesn't mean we're "soft"-

It was said on here many, many times.

Maybe we should have just handed them everything....sigh.

 

[GoodTimes]

Let me get this straight. Your new management makes it abundantly clear that they would prefer a negotiated agreement. You manage to arrive at said agreement through good faith bargaining, then proceed to delay for over a month, return to the bargaining table to extract some extras from your new bosses and finally proceed, much to everyone's dismay, to prevent your membership the simple privilege of a vote.

Back to the golden rule thingy. Are the actions of your group indicative of how you'd like to be treated? If so, I'd say it played out well. This thing works both ways, PCL.

 

[canyonblue]

Back to the golden rule thingy. Are the actions of your group indicative of how you'd like to be treated? If so, I'd say it played out well. This thing works both ways, PCL.

Mess with the Golden Rule and you end up with a Golden Shower.

 

[Ty Webb]

Here is repost of what I told roomwithaview back in March.

I am so sick of people spewing this BS. The payrates we have today are the same as what was negotiated in the 2007 TA that we turned down. Southwest did not walk in and give us anything more than what we had already negotiated long ago. Did they force our management to speed up the process? Sure. But SWA didn't give us anything. So please stop proclaiming things that you know nothing about.

It also forced our Pilot Group to speed up the process (by accepting the rates we had previously rejected) as many believed that we would be working under this contract for only a short period of time, and it would be better to get something than nothing.

 

[FDJ2]

It was said on here many, many times.

Maybe we should have just handed them everything....sigh.

I don't think anyone was asking for anything to be handed to them, I think that all they wanted was an opportunity to make their case in front of a neutral arbitrator in a process all had previously agreed to.

The promises made of a fair process was taken from them through threats and coercion. The end result is that in the minds of many SWA pilots (former Airtran), their seniority was stolen from them at the point of a gun. And who can blame them. This will have negative repercussions at SWA for decades.

All of this could have been mitigated if everyone had followed through on their promise of a fair process and integration, but that didn't happen.

 

[redflyer65]

I don't think anyone was asking for anything to be handed to them, I think that all they wanted was an opportunity to make their case in front of a neutral arbitrator in a process all had previously agreed to.

The promises made of a fair process was taken from them through threats and coercion. The end result is that in the minds of many SWA pilots (former Airtran), their seniority was stolen from them at the point of a gun. And who can blame them. This will have negative repercussions at SWA for decades.

All of this could have been mitigated if everyone had followed through on their promise of a fair process and integration, but that didn't happen.

You mean the magnificent seven didn't have anything to do with it?

I think ALPA pulled the rug out from underneath you more than SW did.

Gary stated he wanted a negotiated agreement. Both sides agreed to one (in principle). The MEC sounded astonished with the agreement, which is really bizarre. The MEC wanted one thing......arbitration. That it, that's one of the reasons it took them a month to decide what to do. Complete stall tactic plain and simple.

They decided to back Gary in a corner and he acted accordingly. Go back to point number one....he wanted a negotiated agreement. It's called BATNA and the AAI MEC didn't understand it.

The first shot on the agreement (no matter what it might have looked like) was going to be the best. It looks like the MEC understood this, but the MEC didn't.