AirTran MEC CYA

[GhettoBeechjet]

I don't know about Howard but I think GL was a master at "Bader Express"

 

[HowardBorden]

who did you fly metro's for? Was it for Atlantic City express or Bader Express or whatever the name was?

Many years of night freight. It was 15+ years ago and I'm still tired. If I never see backside of the clock flying ever again I will be a happy man.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,

Explain to me how you envision "the golden rule" playing out through an SLI process.

Simple: stick to both the letter and the spirit of the Process Agreement, don't threaten to end the careers of one party if they insist on using the entire process in the agreement, and carry through with the integration after an arbitrator's award, just like they said they would.

When I talk about the "golden rule" lie that SWA tells, I'm not talking about the pilots, SWAPA, or any specific integration methodology. I'm only talking about management not lying and threatening people. Lies and threats don't go with the "golden rule," and claiming that it's "just business" doesn't cut it. Either you believe in following the golden role or you don't. If you do, it should apply to business just like it applies to personal relationships.

 

[waveflyer]

You and your union had a role in this PCL-
The golden rule doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want

We all tried to tell you that LUV and the golden rule doesn't mean we're "soft"-
You know damn well you were trying to leverage our culture for your own gain- and look ^^^ you're still trying to.

That won't ever work here. And that's a good thing.

 

[redflyer65]

We all tried to tell you that LUV and the golden rule doesn't mean we're "soft"-

It was said on here many, many times.

Maybe we should have just handed them everything....sigh.

 

[GoodTimes]

Let me get this straight. Your new management makes it abundantly clear that they would prefer a negotiated agreement. You manage to arrive at said agreement through good faith bargaining, then proceed to delay for over a month, return to the bargaining table to extract some extras from your new bosses and finally proceed, much to everyone's dismay, to prevent your membership the simple privilege of a vote.

Back to the golden rule thingy. Are the actions of your group indicative of how you'd like to be treated? If so, I'd say it played out well. This thing works both ways, PCL.

 

[canyonblue]

Back to the golden rule thingy. Are the actions of your group indicative of how you'd like to be treated? If so, I'd say it played out well. This thing works both ways, PCL.

Mess with the Golden Rule and you end up with a Golden Shower.

 

[Ty Webb]

Here is repost of what I told roomwithaview back in March.

I am so sick of people spewing this BS. The payrates we have today are the same as what was negotiated in the 2007 TA that we turned down. Southwest did not walk in and give us anything more than what we had already negotiated long ago. Did they force our management to speed up the process? Sure. But SWA didn't give us anything. So please stop proclaiming things that you know nothing about.

It also forced our Pilot Group to speed up the process (by accepting the rates we had previously rejected) as many believed that we would be working under this contract for only a short period of time, and it would be better to get something than nothing.

 

[FDJ2]

It was said on here many, many times.

Maybe we should have just handed them everything....sigh.

I don't think anyone was asking for anything to be handed to them, I think that all they wanted was an opportunity to make their case in front of a neutral arbitrator in a process all had previously agreed to.

The promises made of a fair process was taken from them through threats and coercion. The end result is that in the minds of many SWA pilots (former Airtran), their seniority was stolen from them at the point of a gun. And who can blame them. This will have negative repercussions at SWA for decades.

All of this could have been mitigated if everyone had followed through on their promise of a fair process and integration, but that didn't happen.

 

[redflyer65]

I don't think anyone was asking for anything to be handed to them, I think that all they wanted was an opportunity to make their case in front of a neutral arbitrator in a process all had previously agreed to.

The promises made of a fair process was taken from them through threats and coercion. The end result is that in the minds of many SWA pilots (former Airtran), their seniority was stolen from them at the point of a gun. And who can blame them. This will have negative repercussions at SWA for decades.

All of this could have been mitigated if everyone had followed through on their promise of a fair process and integration, but that didn't happen.

You mean the magnificent seven didn't have anything to do with it?

I think ALPA pulled the rug out from underneath you more than SW did.

Gary stated he wanted a negotiated agreement. Both sides agreed to one (in principle). The MEC sounded astonished with the agreement, which is really bizarre. The MEC wanted one thing......arbitration. That it, that's one of the reasons it took them a month to decide what to do. Complete stall tactic plain and simple.

They decided to back Gary in a corner and he acted accordingly. Go back to point number one....he wanted a negotiated agreement. It's called BATNA and the AAI MEC didn't understand it.

The first shot on the agreement (no matter what it might have looked like) was going to be the best. It looks like the MEC understood this, but the MEC didn't.

 

[tankerhead]

Hey, what's the min days off for a SWA reserve line?

 

[FDJ2]

You mean the magnificent seven didn't have anything to do with it?

I think ALPA pulled the rug out from underneath you more than SW did.

Gary stated he wanted a negotiated agreement. Both sides agreed to one (in principle). The MEC sounded astonished with the agreement, which is really bizarre. The MEC wanted one thing......arbitration. That it, that's one of the reasons it took them a month to decide what to do. Complete stall tactic plain and simple.

They decided to back Gary in a corner and he acted accordingly. Go back to point number one....he wanted a negotiated agreement. It's called BATNA and the AAI MEC didn't understand it.

The first shot on the agreement (no matter what it might have looked like) was going to be the best. It looks like the MEC understood this, but the MEC didn't.

There is no negotiated agreement when a gun is held to one's head. That's not negotiations, that's not BATNA, that's coercion and extortion. You like the extortion of seniority in this instance, because you benefited from it.

It's real simple. There was a process to be followed, which included arbitration if a negotiated agreement could not be reached. That process was abrogated through the use of threats. The Airtran pilots were denied a fair and impartial process. Because they were denied a fair process, many of them will feel that their seniority was stolen from them and handed to another. You're OK with it because you benefited at their expense, but IMO it will poison your pilot group for the rest of your career. Good luck with that.

 

[Phlintstone]

You mean the magnificent seven didn't have anything to do with it?

They failed to provide an absolute minimum deal that could be taken to the group. They just said, "get what you can." The MC did just that. If they would've provided a little leadership the MC would not have brought back the deal and continued to negotiate. When they rejected the negotiated deal, it was a failure of the whole process.

I think ALPA pulled the rug out from underneath you more than SW did.

You always say this like ALPA National had something to do with it. They did NOTHING other than provide a lawyer who did not provide much...my view from the bleacher seats.

Gary stated he wanted a negotiated agreement. Both sides agreed to one (in principle). The MEC sounded astonished with the agreement, which is really bizarre.

A negotiated agreement is always a good thing if it is fair. There are a lot of folks that do not feel it is fair. Is that a good thing for the kulture?

The MEC was astonished because they were not kept up to speed on the talks. The MEC was "hands off" when it came to the MC and that was about stupid because there needed to be oversight.

They decided to back Gary in a corner and he acted accordingly.

It had nothing to do with backing him into a corner. It was all about how bad the deal was and how the MEC was flooded with a "Just say NO" chant. This just shows how you do not and can not see how you AT viewed the process. Nothing against you, just that you write things that just are not entirely true.

The first shot on the agreement (no matter what it might have looked like) was going to be the best. It looks like the MEC understood this, but the MEC didn't.

You ended up being correct but you have to understand that your advice was coming from the opposing side of the aisle. It is like a shady used car salesman saying "This is the beast deal you are going to get." Do you just take it or do you want him to get the manager?


Red you really need to quit spouting about how the process went from the AT view since you do not understand the dynamics and gyrations of the AT side of the fence.

Phred

 

[maxblast72]

There is no negotiated agreement when a gun is held to one's head. That's not negotiations, that's not BATNA, that's coercion and extortion. You like the extortion of seniority in this instance, because you benefited from it.

While there was not much negotiating involved with SIA #2, there were serious negotiations for SIA #1. SIA #1 would have passed the AirTran pilot group by a much wider margin than the Southwest pilot group.

I am in possession of an email from one of our most radical forum guys to the Merger Committee Vice Chair stating he would have voted yes to SIA #1. If he would have voted yes, SIA #1 would have passed on the AirTran side with at least a 90% vote in favor.

Both the AirTran and Southwest pilots had unrealistic arbitration expectations. The NMB arbitrators in both the AirTran-Southwest dispatchers and rampers arbitration awards said this wasn't a merger of equals and awarded quite a bit lower than DOH for the AirTran employee groups.

Some blame the Merger Committee. Some blame the Magnificent Seven. Others blame Gary Kelly. It is what it is. Time to move on. Most of the FOs and FAs I fly with are tired of listening to $180K/year AirTran Captains bitch for 4 days straight.

 

[maxblast72]

The MEC was astonished because they were not kept up to speed on the talks. The MEC was "hands off" when it came to the MC and that was about stupid because there needed to be oversight.

The MEC was hands off because the Merger Committee Chair and Vice Chair had way more political capital in the tanks than any of the MEC voting reps. The ATL MEC reps found this out the hard way when they were recalled in September 2011.

 

[Phlintstone]

The MEC was hands off because the Merger Committee Chair and Vice Chair had way more political capital in the tanks than any of the MEC voting reps. The ATL MEC reps found this out the hard way when they were recalled in September 2011.

Exactly right. The MEC was a dysfunctional group and they showed how bad they were many times. A good MEC, with good leadership, and a responsible MC/NC would've done better. Unfortunately we did not have any of it.

Phred

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

The other employee group's arbitrated awards rightfully gave SW employees a higher position relative to the former AT employees. You guys keep saying you would have done better in arbitration. You are counting on a law uncontested (so far) in court that you think would have helped you.

In reality, without that remote possibility, and without leaning on the supposed outcome based on B-M, you would have been lucky to all make the bottom of the list! Just like EVERY pilot to ever come to SWA before you.

So talk about poisoning the workgroup all you want, but the only problem is YOU and your crazy expectations.

 

[Phlintstone]

So talk about poisoning the workgroup all you want, but the only problem is YOU and your crazy expectations.

That is the funniest statement of the week right there. Were you the FO who would not even say good morning to me the other day? Let me give you an update there frog boy, you are part of the problem too.

Phred

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

That is the funniest statement of the week right there. Were you the FO who would not even say good morning to me the other day? Let me give you an update there frog boy, you are part of the problem too.

Phred

Wasn't me. I'm always friendly. I'm just tired of listneing to the whining.

 

[IslandDriver]

Hey, what's the min days off for a SWA reserve line?

15 days on during a 30 day or 31 day month and 14 on during a 28 day month......

Trust me been on reserve better part of 5 years...looks like 5 more coming!

ID