AirTran MEC CYA

[carl p]

The performance may suck but at least the seats are uncomfortable. Yea, the 717 is an incredible airplane.

LOL, classic!!!

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, if I had to choose between the 737 and the 717 for summertime operations in the thunderstorm-infested ATL terminal area, I'd probably choose the 717. Even though the cooling and climb performance are better in the 73NG, the 717 has got better radar, higher wing-loading, higher flap speeds, and the skin is twice as thisk . . . the thing's a tank. . . . The 737, by comparison, feels like a Cessna 172.

 

[HowardBorden]

Well, if I had to choose between the 737 and the 717 for summertime operations in the thunderstorm-infested ATL terminal area, I'd probably choose the 717. It's got better radar, higher wing-loading, higher flap speeds, and the skin is twice as thisk . . . the thing's a tank. . . . The 737, by comparison, feels like a Cessna 172.

Unfortunately, it's not a question of performance it's a question of economics. The 717 has higher maintenance costs, similar operating costs and carries far less profit generating customers. On top of the massive costs of operating a second fleet type that include training pilots, F.A.'s and mechanics and carrying millions of dollars of additional parts. It simply did not make any sense to expand to a second fleet type when it did not bring anything to the table that the 737 could not do as well with similar operating costs.

I am constantly amazed when I hear that the AirTran folks were shocked to hear the 717 was leaving the fleet. I agree there should have been more transparency with the issue to AT pilots so they could bid accordingly. It is also clear that there should be a new system that respects seniority to bid across to SWA regardless of base or fleet type.

 

[PCL_128]

I am constantly amazed when I hear that the AirTran folks were shocked to hear the 717 was leaving the fleet.

Why don't you ask Russ M. about that, since he was the senior manager attending road shows when we were told that the 717s would be staying until lease expiration.

 

[HowardBorden]

Why don't you ask Russ M. about that, since he was the senior manager attending road shows when we were told that the 717s would be staying until lease expiration.

Plans change constantly in a large corporation. What doesn't change is language in a contractual document, like this excerpt from the Q and A section of Side Letter 10:

"Q In the event that B717's are replaced with different aircraft, will B717 captains keep their captain seats?

A AirTran pilots whose seat position is eliminated by reduction of the B717 fleet will bid system seniority for their new assignment. (27.F.2)"

 

[Ty Webb]

Howard, given the outcome, perhaps it seems obvious now, but at the time, SWA management was conducting face-to-face meetings with our Pilots, telling them that the aircraft would be kept until the leases started expiring in 2017. . . . announced a TPA 717 domicile, put it out for a bid, and awarded the positions.

I have been awarded a 717CA position at SWA. I guess we'll eventually see what that means.

 

[HowardBorden]

Howard, given the outcome, perhaps it seems obvious now, but at the time, SWA management was conducting face-to-face meetings with our Pilots, telling them that the aircraft would be kept until the leases started expiring in 2017. . . . announced a TPA 717 domicile, put it out for a bid, and awarded the positions.

I have been awarded a 717CA position at SWA. I guess we'll eventually see what that means.

Again, plans can and do change in a large corporation. If no one at AirTran saw this coming you were blind to portions of S.L.10 that specifically addressed what would happen in the event that the 717 fleet was retired. When it is specifically stated that this could happen you have to entertain the possibility that it may in fact happen. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.

 

[Tripower455]

Howard, given the outcome, perhaps it seems obvious now, but at the time, SWA management was conducting face-to-face meetings with our Pilots, telling them that the aircraft would be kept until the leases started expiring in 2017. . . . announced a TPA 717 domicile, put it out for a bid, and awarded the positions.

I have been awarded a 717CA position at SWA. I guess we'll eventually see what that means.

They told us the same thing. Heck, The TPA 717 domicile was gonna be the only positive part of this deal for me.

 

[canyonblue]

Why don't you ask Russ M. about that, since he was the senior manager attending road shows when we were told that the 717s would be staying until lease expiration.

Yeah, they told my new-hire class would would be Captains in 5 years. I should sue the friggen liars.

 

[FIREMAN]

Again, plans can and do change in a large corporation. If no one at AirTran saw this coming you were blind to portions of S.L.10 that specifically addressed what would happen in the event that the 717 fleet was retired. When it is specifically stated that this could happen you have to entertain the possibility that it may in fact happen. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.

Plans do change, however, meany feel dumping the 71 was the plan all along.

 

[Phlintstone]

There is a HUGE difference between something being mentioned in ground school and something being awarded in a bid package and announcement of a new base. Even you should see that. We all knew the 717s were on borrowed time but the assurances from the head shed folks at SWA that they would be around until at least 2017 were common. I guess it was our mistake to believe their actions and words were genuine.

Phred

 

[scoreboardII]

Howard, given the outcome, perhaps it seems obvious now, but at the time, SWA management was conducting face-to-face meetings with our Pilots, telling them that the aircraft would be kept until the leases started expiring in 2017. . . . announced a TPA 717 domicile, put it out for a bid, and awarded the positions.

I have been awarded a 717CA position at SWA. I guess we'll eventually see what that means.

Ty,, when I was hired ten years ago, I was told SWA will never merge because organic growth preserved employee happiness, will never go international, never use auto throttles, and required everyone to buy a type.

You are going to have to go to the end of the very long unhappy campers line my friend.

 

[HowardBorden]

We all knew the 717s were on borrowed time but the assurances from the head shed folks at SWA that they would be around until at least 2017 were common.

Always believe what they are willing to put in writing before anything else.

 

[Tripower455]

A few months after the acquisition announcement, Gary was in the MCO crew lounge doing a grip and grin. Th 717 topic was brought up numerous times in the time I was there, and he was adamant that they were staying, and that they'd be a good fit for SWA, particularly in the intra Texas market. His words.

 

[redflyer65]

I never thought the 717 would be painted in Southwest colors, even on the day of the purchase announcement.

The nail in the coffin was shortly after the announcement and the training center said the 717 sim would NOT be coming to Dallas. Game over at that point. And that was waaaay before the Delta lease announcement.

Moving the sim would have been hugely expensive. They played their hand early with that one.

 

[dicko]

They told us the same thing. Heck, The TPA 717 domicile was gonna be the only positive part of this deal for me.

Cool. I'll see you in Tampa.

Dicko (Successful bidder of "717 Captain. Base TBD")

 

[dicko]

Always believe what they are willing to put in writing before anything else.

Really Howard ?

Let me get this straight; you're a genius, a mind reader in hindsight, a sage, and you don't believe a word that comes out of Southwest managements mouth ?

Go back and read the process agreement. Its in writing. Leave your hindsight in the closet next to your rubber ball gag. Pretend that you believe it was written in good faith. Then compare it to what happened.

You're next.

 

[GoodTimes]

You're next for what? I'd love to hear what's coming next. Especially from a group that's so great at predicting their new managers next move.

 

[humveedriver]

A few months after the acquisition announcement, Gary was in the MCO crew lounge doing a grip and grin. Th 717 topic was brought up numerous times in the time I was there, and he was adamant that they were staying, and that they'd be a good fit for SWA, particularly in the intra Texas market. His words.

We are all just along for the ride. Some figure it out sooner. Others later. In the case of the AT pilots we wanted to believe we could keep our seats somehow. We just didn't understand that was never in the cards. 717s leaving meant a flushing. That's all there is too it.

 

[HowardBorden]

Really Howard ?

Let me get this straight; you're a genius, a mind reader in hindsight, a sage, and you don't believe a word that comes out of Southwest managements mouth ?

From an article WELL before the vote:

Posted: 5:36 p.m. Wednesday, Sept. 28, 2011

Pilots from AirTran Airways and their counterparts at Southwest Airlines will soon vote on a deal to combine their seniority lists, a critical step forward in the merger of the two airlines.

Southwest executives have also said they do not plan to permanently keep AirTran's Boeing 717s, which could affect pilot jobs.

Negative fallout from the failed first deal led to an ongoing vote among AirTran pilots on whether to recall some of their union leaders.

http://www.ajc.com/news/business/airtran-southwest-pilots-to-vote-on-seniority-deal/nQMGG/

A genius, no. A mind reader, no. A sage, no. But capable of reading a news article, yes. Capable of reading and comprehending an e-mail from the CEO of SWA, yes.

And to be clear NO I DO NOT BELIEVE EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF MANAGEMENT'S MOUTH. Especially during negotiations I am a firm believer of trust but verify. If they aren't willing to put it in writing you can't count on it happening.