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AirTran MEC CYA

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There is a HUGE difference between something being mentioned in ground school and something being awarded in a bid package and announcement of a new base. Even you should see that. We all knew the 717s were on borrowed time but the assurances from the head shed folks at SWA that they would be around until at least 2017 were common. I guess it was our mistake to believe their actions and words were genuine.

Phred
 
Ty Webb said:
Howard, given the outcome, perhaps it seems obvious now, but at the time, SWA management was conducting face-to-face meetings with our Pilots, telling them that the aircraft would be kept until the leases started expiring in 2017. . . . announced a TPA 717 domicile, put it out for a bid, and awarded the positions.

I have been awarded a 717CA position at SWA. I guess we'll eventually see what that means.
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Ty,, when I was hired ten years ago, I was told SWA will never merge because organic growth preserved employee happiness, will never go international, never use auto throttles, and required everyone to buy a type.

You are going to have to go to the end of the very long unhappy campers line my friend.
 
A few months after the acquisition announcement, Gary was in the MCO crew lounge doing a grip and grin. Th 717 topic was brought up numerous times in the time I was there, and he was adamant that they were staying, and that they'd be a good fit for SWA, particularly in the intra Texas market. His words.
 
I never thought the 717 would be painted in Southwest colors, even on the day of the purchase announcement.

The nail in the coffin was shortly after the announcement and the training center said the 717 sim would NOT be coming to Dallas. Game over at that point. And that was waaaay before the Delta lease announcement.

Moving the sim would have been hugely expensive. They played their hand early with that one.
 
HowardBorden said:
Always believe what they are willing to put in writing before anything else.
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Really Howard ?

Let me get this straight; you're a genius, a mind reader in hindsight, a sage, and you don't believe a word that comes out of Southwest managements mouth ?

Go back and read the process agreement. Its in writing. Leave your hindsight in the closet next to your rubber ball gag. Pretend that you believe it was written in good faith. Then compare it to what happened.

You're next.
 
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You're next for what? I'd love to hear what's coming next. Especially from a group that's so great at predicting their new managers next move.
 
Tripower455 said:
A few months after the acquisition announcement, Gary was in the MCO crew lounge doing a grip and grin. Th 717 topic was brought up numerous times in the time I was there, and he was adamant that they were staying, and that they'd be a good fit for SWA, particularly in the intra Texas market. His words.
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We are all just along for the ride. Some figure it out sooner. Others later. In the case of the AT pilots we wanted to believe we could keep our seats somehow. We just didn't understand that was never in the cards. 717s leaving meant a flushing. That's all there is too it.
 
dicko said:
Really Howard ?

Let me get this straight; you're a genius, a mind reader in hindsight, a sage, and you don't believe a word that comes out of Southwest managements mouth ?
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From an article WELL before the vote:

Posted: 5:36 p.m. Wednesday, Sept. 28, 2011

Pilots from AirTran Airways and their counterparts at Southwest Airlines will soon vote on a deal to combine their seniority lists, a critical step forward in the merger of the two airlines.

Southwest executives have also said they do not plan to permanently keep AirTran's Boeing 717s, which could affect pilot jobs.

Negative fallout from the failed first deal led to an ongoing vote among AirTran pilots on whether to recall some of their union leaders.

http://www.ajc.com/news/business/airtran-southwest-pilots-to-vote-on-seniority-deal/nQMGG/

A genius, no. A mind reader, no. A sage, no. But capable of reading a news article, yes. Capable of reading and comprehending an e-mail from the CEO of SWA, yes.

And to be clear NO I DO NOT BELIEVE EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF MANAGEMENT'S MOUTH. Especially during negotiations I am a firm believer of trust but verify. If they aren't willing to put it in writing you can't count on it happening.
 
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More proof that the "golden rule" is nothing but a sham at SWA.
 
dicko said:
Really Howard ?

Go back and read the process agreement. Its in writing. Leave your hindsight in the closet next to your rubber ball gag. Pretend that you believe it was written in good faith. Then compare it to what happened.
Click to expand...
You refer to the Process Agreement which said this:

WHEREAS, Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (?SWAPA?), the Air Line Pilots Association (?ALPA?), Southwest and AirTran desire to utilize an alternative process as set forth in this Agreement for the creation of an Integrated Master Seniority List;

What portion wasn't followed?
 
PCL_128 said:
More proof that the "golden rule" is nothing but a sham at SWA.
Click to expand...
They treat me well. They have bent over backwards to help me in my time of need. They pay me well and I like my schedule and benefits. But, if our new contract contained any "the company will make its best effort" type of language I would vote no in a heartbeat. It's an airline, out to make a profit, I sip the kool-aid not gulp it.
 
The VERY first thing I thought when this agreement came out was I hope they get rid of the 717's before 2015. I'm still not exactly sure why so many SWA guys are pissed about it....
 
GoodTimes said:
PCL,

Explain to me how you envision "the golden rule" playing out through an SLI process.
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Easy, relitive senority .

Jim R. And there number one pilot would flip a coin to see who bids number one. Then work down the list from there .


So basically just take how many years you where at AT and double it. That would be your new senority at SWA.

I left out double double your pay ( in reality it would triple )



That is his version of the golden rule.
 
PCL_128 said:
Why don't you ask Russ M. about that, since he was the senior manager attending road shows when we were told that the 717s would be staying until lease expiration.
Click to expand...
OK, Mr. ALPA EVP know it all, when do you think Richard Anderson told Gary Kelly he would take the B717s off SWA's hands?

Do I need to send you a copy of Frank's PowerPoint slide from the closed August 16, 2011 MEC meeting?
 
GoodTimes said:
PCL,

Explain to me how you envision "the golden rule" playing out through an SLI process.
Click to expand...

It's just a talking point.

Very similiar to try to argue with emotion and feelings, but in reality the facts were there. The 717 was never coming to this side of the fence. I do believe there should have been a re-bid for those on the AAI side.
 
Well, we've pretty much covered how pilots from each seniority list view it; eventually, we'll see how a neutral observer views it.

That's probably what should have been done from the start.
 
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slaquer5 said:
Easy, relitive senority .


So basically just take how many years you where at AT and double it. That would be your new senority at SWA.

I left out double double your pay ( in reality it would triple )

.
Click to expand...

For a flight attendant, maybe.

For a current AirTran Captain, it's basically a $10K/yr loss until re-upgrade, and then a $30K raise from where you would be at AAI in that same year (2019).

That $30K, btw, is basically in exchange for losing your base, trading commutable trips for non-commutable trips, and starting over as a junior captain, which most of us already did a decade ago.

I don't expect you to see it my way, but every time you trot out that hogwash about us "doubling our pay", I'm obligated to set you straight.

Ty
 
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Ty Webb said:
I don't expect you to see it my way, but every time you trot out that hogwash about us "doubling our pay", I'm obligated to set you straight.

Ty
Click to expand...

You need me to 'trot out' your pre-SW payscale? I wrote it down the day the announcement was made for future reference. Somehow I knew it would be an issue going forward.

I believe the top FO payscale was around 79/hour and the CA's topped out at 152.

Losing your base and seniority at the smaller carrier sucks and I completely get that part of it. There should have been fences.
 
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Ty Webb said:
For a flight attendant, maybe.

For a current AirTran Captain, it's basically a $10K/yr loss until re-upgrade, and then a $30K raise from where you would be at AAI in that same year (2019).
Click to expand...

I am curious why the former AT Capts I've spoken to over here have all, to a man, said that they are making more money here, working fewer days, as an FO than they ever made as a Capt at AT?
 
slaquer5 said:
I can't speak for TW. But I am sure some do. Anything is possible
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Subject to the terms and conditions contained in the Seniority Integration Agreement between Southwest, AirTran, SWAPA and ALPA, the Dispute Resolution Committee was created to resolve certain disputes arising from the interpretation or application of the September 2011 Seniority Integration Agreement. The committee functions within the boundaries of the Dispute Resolution Agreement and provides claimants access to binding arbitration. Importantly, an arbitrator's scope is limited solely to interpreting the agreement. The arbitrator cannot add to, remove from or otherwise modify the agreement, and the accompanying seniority list cannot be altered.
 
No, an Arbitrator cannot change the list.

Regarding the pay, if you want to keep trotting out our 2001 contract, which became amendable in 2005, feel free, but don't expect anyone working on this side of the partition to agree that it is realistic to do so. That subject has already been been beat to death, and we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

As for what you have heard from former Captains that have transitioned, that's not what we are hearing, but if any 12th year pilots want to pm me with their w-2 info, I'd be happy to hear differently.

Regds,
Ty
 
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PCL_128 said:
More proof that the "golden rule" is nothing but a sham at SWA.
Click to expand...

Do you love your friends?
(I guess I should ask IF you have friends, but I assume you do- people you really care about?)

Now you fall into business with them. Can they treat you any which way they want and have you stand idly by. Watch as they extort more and more- delaying the process, proceed neurotically w/o you acting and taking some control over the situation.


You want to shirk ATALPA's responsibility in how everything went down-
But you KNOW your role was significant.

For those of us who work in ALPA in the past- it was predictable. Lamely predictable. Except the neurosis - for that, I feel for every AT pilot.
 
Ty Webb said:
Well, we've pretty much covered how pilots from each seniority list view it; eventually, we'll see how a neutral observer views it.

That's probably what should have been done from the start.
Click to expand...

Well, AT wanted relative seniority. Your #1 next to ours.

And I want a billion trillion dollars-

You need to think about how many of us sacrificed years longer to start at the bottom for the company that BOUGHT you.

Sorry you got bought- but the tail doesn't wag the dog
 
"That $30K, btw, is basically in exchange for losing your base, trading commutable trips for non-commutable trips, and starting over as a junior captain, which most of us already did a decade ago."

UNBELIEVABLE!
 

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