AirTran MEC CYA

[PCL_128]

Well of course you guys wanted a fair integration with Midwest. The pilot group was so small it would work in your favor. With SWA not so much.

How exactly would integrating pilots from a stagnant airline in relative seniority benefit us?

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

SWA pilots didn't fear arbitration because of where the list would have ended up. We wanted a negotiated agreement because we were told by management that they would operate you separately for long term despite our contract and ensuing court battle if we didn't make that happen. No rumors or innuendo. I was in the room when that was told to us very clearly and directly. Of course I voted no anyway, but 86? percent of us fell for it. Don't think your silly pipe dreams had anything to do with the decision.

To those of you on the FAT side who can't get over your discontent, you keep threatening the "poisoning" of the employee group for decades to come... And it is a threat. Whether you'll be an ass in the cockpit forever, or call in sick for all the holidays, or whatever it is you plan to do for revenge - we'll get through it. The only one you are going to really hurt is yourself! With that much stress you'll surely die young, ruin personal relationships, divorce, etc.

So go ahead. Ruin your life because you think you were treated unfairly. Many OSW think we got the shaft in all of this too. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm prepared to sit on the bottom and commute to weekends for the next 10 years. I can't change it. Instead I'm going to try to look at the bright side and continue to get my financial house in order in the event that [1+1=less than two] rears its ugly head and I move further backward.

In the meantime, I'm going to wave when I pass you in the terminal, even when I'm ignored... I'm going to chat with you in line at the food court, even when I'm given the evil eye... I'm going to continue to try and be pleasant in the face of this unpleasant reality because you didn't cause this merger just like we didn't cause it. We're all just bystanders.

 

[Wesb737fo]

SWA pilots didn't fear arbitration because of where the list would have ended up. We wanted a negotiated agreement because we were told by management that they would operate you separately for long term despite our contract and ensuing court battle if we didn't make that happen. No rumors or innuendo. I was in the room when that was told to us very clearly and directly. Of course I voted no anyway, but 86? percent of us fell for it. Don't think your silly pipe dreams had anything to do with the decision.

To those of you on the FAT side who can't get over your discontent, you keep threatening the "poisoning" of the employee group for decades to come... And it is a threat. Whether you'll be an ass in the cockpit forever, or call in sick for all the holidays, or whatever it is you plan to do for revenge - we'll get through it. The only one you are going to really hurt is yourself! With that much stress you'll surely die young, ruin personal relationships, divorce, etc.

So go ahead. Ruin your life because you think you were treated unfairly. Many OSW think we got the shaft in all of this too. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm prepared to sit on the bottom and commute to weekends for the next 10 years. I can't change it. Instead I'm going to try to look at the bright side and continue to get my financial house in order in the event that [1+1=less than two] rears its ugly head and I move further backward.

In the meantime, I'm going to wave when I pass you in the terminal, even when I'm ignored... I'm going to chat with you in line at the food court, even when I'm given the evil eye... I'm going to continue to try and be pleasant in the face of this unpleasant reality because you didn't cause this merger just like we didn't cause it. We're all just bystanders.

somebody needs a nap......

 

[waveflyer]

PCL, you're being a salesman- you have to stick to your guns bc your ploys didn't work- and you've been doing your little part to poison the well since the deal was announced-

But it's very little - bc you're not in your little pond anymore

Again, not rational.

But arguing with you gives you more credibility than you've earned.

 

[Just thinking]

"We wanted a negotiated agreement because we were told by management that they would operate you separately for long term despite our contract and ensuing court battle if we didn't make that happen. No rumors or innuendo. I was in the room when that was told to us very clearly and directly"

It was not negotiated.... it was dictated by SWA MGMT. That was not the intent nor the purpose of the process agreement that all parties signed. That was what was sold to the pilot group and that was our expectation. We expected the parties to follow the procedure that was agreed upon. Had the procedure been followed and the end result been the exact same.... it would have been accepted with much less acrimony. Having it shoved down your throat while chanting "golden rule" makes it a bitter pill to swallow.

Rumors and innuendo was all that Airtran pilots received. We had no leadership. We had a multitude of personnel with their own agenda with no guidance or understanding of what the pilots wanted. We had been polled multiple times over the past ten years on a variety of topics but facing a critical juncture and they did not even bother to get a baseline before sending in the MC.

We will live with our inept union leadership. We are used to the disappointment. We voted in ALPA for adult supervision due to less than stellar performance from previous union efforts.
But if you are worried about the "poisoning" of your so called culture you should ask big gary if he has the time to walk the line and watch the rampers shooting hoops while an aircraft is waiting to pull into the gate. Twice the number of personnel in the gate area and they can't push an aircraft on time with 45 minutes. Stand at a gate for 15 minutes waiting for the operations agent to show up to look at your ID and let you down the jet bridge while the gate agents stand there doing nothing. (Oh and by the way, checked with the supervisor and they are allowed to let you down.) Snide remarks from RSW FO's and Captains alike. That is just a small slice of what we have been dealing with from both sides of the fence.

This pilot group will continue to perform in a professional manner. We will be courteous and try to avoid confrontation although there will certainly be some clashes. Please lay off the kool aid though.... we already saw the turd in the punch bowl.

 

[jball2]

RSW fos and cappies aren't the only ones making snide remarks. An AT captain went out of his way to be a prick to me today. I was trying to be friendly but he went on a tirade so I just told him it wasn't my idea and walked away. Ain't nobody got time fo dat!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[redflyer65]

Based on past arbitral decisions, it would have factored virtually nothing into the panel's decision, so your question is irrelevant.

Wrong. The recent panels' decision with other labor groups (AAI/SW) prove it WAS relevant.

 

[waveflyer]

Jus thinking-

I'm tired of the idea that YOUR group was actually following the process agreement-

There was no good faith effort to get to a negotiated agreement, which was the precursor to arbitration-

Delay delay delay - that was the ALPA plan from the beginning- delay delay- collect air tran dues- drag it out- poison the well- why would that entity do anything other? Totally predictable-

You tried to wag the dog and got what you got-
Don't preach to me about a bitter pill- I came through the front door on the bottom and seriously SACRIFICED to do it- SWA pissed on that effort when they bought you-

So grow up and get over it like we are on this end- if you can't- at least shut up

 

[FDJ2]

Jus thinking-

I'm tired of the idea that YOUR group was actually following the process agreement-

There was no good faith effort to get to a negotiated agreement, which was the precursor to arbitration-

Delay delay delay - that was the ALPA plan from the beginning- delay delay- collect air tran dues- drag it out- poison the well- why would that entity do anything other? Totally predictable-

You tried to wag the dog and got what you got-
Don't preach to me about a bitter pill- I came through the front door on the bottom and seriously SACRIFICED to do it- SWA pissed on that effort when they bought you-

So grow up and get over it like we are on this end- if you can't- at least shut up

Can you feel the LUV.

I guess in your world there is no golden rule, just whatever benefits you.

It was the denial of a fair process that poisoned the well. It was coercion and extortion resulting in a cram down that poisoned the well.

If you had any confidence at all in your arguments you would have insisted that the process be followed through to its conclusion, instead, you opted for the short term benefit of taking from a fellow pilot in order to advance your own self interest. You'll now have to live with it for the rest of your career. Karma's a biatch.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm sorry, aren't you delta?

In a fair world, you'd be taking their pilots since you're ending up with 2/3's of their airplanes-

Don't preach to me about our SLI when you aren't willing to take their pilots at all much less give them your "fair" SLI.

They got a great deal. Not just good- a great one. Much better than the deal the junior half of SWA FO's got. But I know this- it's over and opinions are just pissing into the wind - so who cares- ill shut up if they will-
And unless your willing to take them, you can grow up and shut up too

 

[scoreboardII]

so can this thread end already....... By my count this is thread 6 with exactly the same discussion.

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah,
FI break time

Self imposed time out-

Argue amongst yourselves about how victimized all you AT pilots were if you must

 

[PCL_128]

Can you feel the LUV.

I guess in your world there is no golden rule, just whatever benefits you.

Bingo. The golden rule is complete sham at SWA.

 

[PCL_128]

Wrong. The recent panels' decision with other labor groups (AAI/SW) prove it WAS relevant.

Wrong. Arbitral precedent outside of our profession is irrelevant.

 

[Phlintstone]

They (AT) got a great deal. Not just good- a great one. Much better than the deal the junior half of SWA FO's got.

In no way was it a great deal for AT. I have ALL SWA pilots above me. I'll have to commute to the opposite coast vice driving to work. I will get a raise and better work rules so there are some positives. The main reason I went with AT was not a "quick" upgrade like you guys always suppose...I applied only to them so that I did not have to commute. That was going to happen no matter what the deal so there is no animosity towards fellow SWA pilots for this. It is just something I have to deal with.

The junior half of your FOs got years of "new hires" below them. That is some good furlough protection right there and better bidding power. I'm sure your junior FOs are pissed, I am not saying they shouldn't be but their anger ought to be aimed towards SC. He was the one who preached unreasonable expectations AND wanted every CA seat. He got them and then the FOs went "oh snap, We just got screwed." It is one of those, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" moments.

But I know this- it's over and opinions are just pissing into the wind - so who cares-

Very true and I agree.

ill shut up

THANK YOU! :beer:

Phred

 

[freightdogfred]

SWA pilots didn't fear arbitration because of where the list would have ended up. We wanted a negotiated agreement because we were told by management that they would operate you separately for long term despite our contract and ensuing court battle if we didn't make that happen. No rumors or innuendo. I was in the room when that was told to us very clearly and directly. Of course I voted no anyway, but 86? percent of us fell for it. Don't think your silly pipe dreams had anything to do with the decision.

To those of you on the FAT side who can't get over your discontent, you keep threatening the "poisoning" of the employee group for decades to come... And it is a threat. Whether you'll be an ass in the cockpit forever, or call in sick for all the holidays, or whatever it is you plan to do for revenge - we'll get through it. The only one you are going to really hurt is yourself! With that much stress you'll surely die young, ruin personal relationships, divorce, etc.

So go ahead. Ruin your life because you think you were treated unfairly. Many OSW think we got the shaft in all of this too. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm prepared to sit on the bottom and commute to weekends for the next 10 years. I can't change it. Instead I'm going to try to look at the bright side and continue to get my financial house in order in the event that [1+1=less than two] rears its ugly head and I move further backward.

In the meantime, I'm going to wave when I pass you in the terminal, even when I'm ignored... I'm going to chat with you in line at the food court, even when I'm given the evil eye... I'm going to continue to try and be pleasant in the face of this unpleasant reality because you didn't cause this merger just like we didn't cause it. We're all just bystanders.

Good post. Reverse the OSW and FAT, and it's exactly how many of us feel on the other side of the fence.

 

[GoodTimes]

PCL,

Somewhere, someone told you that the Golden Rule and SWA went hand-in-hand. You bought it, pinned your SLI dreams to it, and now find yourself bitter and disappointed.

Sounds to me like your having a tough time coming to grips with the fact that the industry bent you over for the first time in your career.

You'll get over it. Or not.

Welcome to the airlines.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,

Somewhere, someone told you that the Golden Rule and SWA went hand-in-hand. You bought it, pinned your SLI dreams to it, and now find yourself bitter and disappointed.

Oh no, not at all. My expectation is always that management is a bunch of lying snakes. I expected nothing different here, and I wasn't disappointed. I just want you guys to admit that the culture is a sham, and the golden rule at SWA is a myth.

 

[GoodTimes]

I can't speak for outsiders, but as an employee, the company's always treated me exceptionally well. Far better than any previous airline. I'd love to make you feel better and tell you it's all just a sham, but I'm afraid I can't. I've competed against SWA and seen friends bet against them in the late 90s. All I can say is, more often than not, the company seems to find a way to win. The only difference is which side you're on. You obviously found that out the hard way. I'll always be convinced, however, that SWA initially made you an extremely fair offer. Things went downhill when you and your compadres tried to play poker and lost. I suppose eventually you'll man up and own your role in that fiasco. Until then, hoping for words from the other side to ease your pain won't help.

 

[Tripower455]

PCL,

Somewhere, someone told you that the Golden Rule and SWA went hand-in-hand. You bought it, pinned your SLI dreams to it, and now find yourself bitter and disappointed.

Sounds to me like your having a tough time coming to grips with the fact that the industry bent you over for the first time in your career.

You'll get over it. Or not.

Welcome to the airlines.

PCL will never admit it, but he is one of the few folks that made out like a bandit in this debacle, more so than any OSW and even most FAT guys. If he comes over and doesn't get himself fired, he will, due to his age, be very senior on the combined list for many years.

This industry is littered with pilots that HAVE actually been bent over by it, that would give their left arms to be "bent over" in the way that he claims he's been.

 

[fletch717]

I can't speak for outsiders, but as an employee, the company's always treated me exceptionally well. Far better than any previous airline. I'd love to make you feel better and tell you it's all just a sham, but I'm afraid I can't. I've competed against SWA and seen friends bet against them in the late 90s. All I can say is, more often than not, the company seems to find a way to win. The only difference is which side you're on. You obviously found that out the hard way. I'll always be convinced, however, that SWA initially made you an extremely fair offer. Things went downhill when you and your compadres tried to play poker and lost. I suppose eventually you'll man up and own your role in that fiasco. Until then, hoping for words from the other side to ease your pain won't help.

Based on the sale of the 717 the first offer was a sham. There were no seat protections with the loss of A/C . If you say the 717's were never going to be a part of the fleet, then SWA knowingly duped us into an agreement which they never intended to follow. Some on this board say "WE" should have known the 71 would never stay. That is NOT what we were told by SWA mgmt. We had an airplane that was profitable and no reason to believe SWA would lie. SWA was strong arming us but had yet to Lie, so we bought their story and voted for SIA2. SWA used the threat of getting rid of the 717 and alluded to possible furloughs to get the SIA2 vote yes. So in fact they were talking out of both sides of their mouth. These are the facts and That is why there is a DRC case pending.

 

[Dash Power]

I for one wouldn't mind to do a vote on this SLI again.

From what I have learned I would change my vote to no. I think most of the SWA pilots would. 17% were smarter than I.

And I would bet that most of the FAT would still vote yes.

 

[Herkdrv]

PCL will never admit it, but he is one of the few folks that made out like a bandit in this debacle, more so than any OSW and even most FAT guys. If he comes over and doesn't get himself fired, he will, due to his age, be very senior on the combined list for many years.

This industry is littered with pilots that HAVE actually been bent over by it, that would give their left arms to be "bent over" in the way that he claims he's been.

Isn't this the same clown that bought his first aviation job?

 

[Kharma Police]

I for one wouldn't mind to do a vote on this SLI again.

From what I have learned I would change my vote to no. I think most of the SWA pilots would. 17% were smarter than I.

And I would bet that most of the FAT would still vote yes.

Give it a shot, let us know how it goes....

 

[PCL_128]

PCL will never admit it, but he is one of the few folks that made out like a bandit in this debacle, more so than any OSW and even most FAT guys. If he comes over and doesn't get himself fired, he will, due to his age, be very senior on the combined list for many years.

This industry is littered with pilots that HAVE actually been bent over by it, that would give their left arms to be "bent over" in the way that he claims he's been.

I'm not much interested in where I'll be on the list at the age of 60, because that's all too speculative. Primarily, it requires you to assume that no further mergers will take place, and I consider the chances of that are pretty much nil. The reality of the SLI for me for the foreseeable future is commuting to the west coast, having much less time at home, flying a schedule I don't like, and upgrade being a faraway dream. The only people who truly did well in this merger on our side of the partition are the guys who live in or close to SWA domiciles that don't require significant seniority to hold. That's about it.

 

[Ty Webb]

I for one wouldn't mind to do a vote on this SLI again.

From what I have learned I would change my vote to no. I think most of the SWA pilots would. 17% were smarter than I.

And I would bet that most of the FAT would still vote yes.

You must be Wave's cavemate. . . . :laugh:

Seriously, if you want a real snapshot of how that would go down over here, just take a look at the awards for 717CA to SWA737 . . . They are going so junior, they will likely have to start junior-assigning for the August class.

Yes, you read that correctly. They are going to have to force pilots to leave 717CA for SWA. If life at SWA really involves a payraise, better QOL, etc, don't you think that outta 400+ pilots, they would have at least SOME takers?

Just a little something to contemplate, when you come out of your cave.

 

[redflyer65]

Oh no, not at all. My expectation is always that management is a bunch of lying snakes. I expected nothing different here, and I wasn't disappointed. I just want you guys to admit that the culture is a sham, and the golden rule at SWA is a myth.

No sham and no myth.


The culture is alive and well PCL. You have to see it going on around you to believe it. Actually, I went to some lengths to help a FA retrive her cell phone today. She couldn't believe I stepped in, but she would have done the same if needed. There's no other airline that compares in this regard.

I could give you plenty of personal examples to prove this, but some of these things are personal are better left to one on one conversation instead of FI.

RF

 

[canyonblue]

We had an airplane that was profitable ...

You mean a leasing company had an airplane...

 

[Tripower455]

I'm not much interested in where I'll be on the list at the age of 60, because that's all too speculative. Primarily, it requires you to assume that no further mergers will take place, and I consider the chances of that are pretty much nil. The reality of the SLI for me for the foreseeable future is commuting to the west coast, having much less time at home, flying a schedule I don't like, and upgrade being a faraway dream. The only people who truly did well in this merger on our side of the partition are the guys who live in or close to SWA domiciles that don't require significant seniority to hold. That's about it.

As I said, you made out like a bandit compared to just about everyone else in this deal.

 

[GoodTimes]

Based on the sale of the 717 the first offer was a sham. There were no seat protections with the loss of A/C . If you say the 717's were never going to be a part of the fleet, then SWA knowingly duped us into an agreement which they never intended to follow. Some on this board say "WE" should have known the 71 would never stay. That is NOT what we were told by SWA mgmt. We had an airplane that was profitable and no reason to believe SWA would lie. SWA was strong arming us but had yet to Lie, so we bought their story and voted for SIA2. SWA used the threat of getting rid of the 717 and alluded to possible furloughs to get the SIA2 vote yes. So in fact they were talking out of both sides of their mouth. These are the facts and That is why there is a DRC case pending.

Sorry you feel that way. This is a dynamic industry and things change fast. What'd they promise you as an AAI new-hire? You've been around long to know the game. Good luck with the DRC. It'd be a shame to be disappointed twice.