SWA/FL Codeshare

[GIZMONC]

SWA is finally ready to codeshare with FL. There has not been a press release on it as of yet but coming soon. Could this technology update help in moving the merger along. Start date of the codeshare has not been officially announced. However GK has stated in the past it would be available 1stQ-2013.

 

[Just thinking]

How many millions of dollars has been wasted so far? Wow, only two years since the announcement and they may possibly achieve something in the near future that others accomplish in a matter of weeks. There is your 15 % ROI. Of course if they stay consistent, it will be at least another 18 months.

 

[boeingdriver213]

Most mergers that were done "quickly" were a train wreck for years. I think SWA is trying to do it correctly, not quickly.

 

[Britpilot]

I think SWA is trying to do it correctly, not quickly.

No, no they're not. It is a train wreck of their own making. Requiring a 737 pilot to go through two months of training to learn how to fly the 737 is expensive and just plain silly.
Delta/NWA was a "quick" merger. It was done how it should be done.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Most mergers that were done "quickly" were a train wreck for years. I think SWA is trying to do it correctly, not quickly.

Ahh, no, they're not. The longer this merger drags on the more SWA is showing they're fumbling along in the dark more than anything else. Still a good company with lots of potential, but (SLI aside) they've made a mess of the merger in about every way possible - so far.

As for the codeshare - seeing is believing - call me when it really occurs.

 

[General Lee]

Most mergers that were done "quickly" were a train wreck for years. I think SWA is trying to do it correctly, not quickly.

Huh??? Ask the AT guys if they are doing it "correctly?" You don't have a CEO favor one side, and expect the other side to forget it. (that is why arbitrators are used, they are blamed for an award, not management or the other pilots) Then, you don't pay one side differently for the SAME equipment. Even though SWA is keeping the extra ancilary revenue from AT (bag fees, etc), they don't give the AT guys any of that. This merger is a lot closer to the USAir merger than other SUCCESSFUL mergers.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

and by "correctly, not quickly" you mean as slow as they want.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Huh??? Ask the AT guys if they are doing it "correctly?" You don't have a CEO favor one side, and expect the other side to forget it. (that is why arbitrators are used, they are blamed for an award, not management or the other pilots) Then, you don't pay one side differently for the SAME equipment. Even though SWA is keeping the extra ancilary revenue from AT (bag fees, etc), they don't give the AT guys any of that. This merger is a lot closer to the USAir merger than other SUCCESSFUL mergers.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Thanks for chiming in General--I was waiting with breathless anticipation for your words of wisdom here.

Everyone will get paid the same when the airlines are actually merged, on 1 January 2015, about two years hence. And how management uses its various revenue streams as it changes part of its holdings' business model really has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. Southwest gets a significant revenue source from NFG freight; does that mean they should just give all that revenue straight to the rampers?

And the "other pilots" aren't really to blame here; management is. They made the decision, and neither side had much, if any, say in the matter. Unequivocally, GK is where the buck stops in this case.

Yeah, I can see where SWA/Airtran is JUST like USAir: BK wages on one side, furloughs on the other side, no contract, nothing to look forward to, and 8 years and counting with no end in sight. You're right, General--it's exactly the same. Thank God you're here to point that out.


Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Thanks for chiming in General--I was waiting with breathless anticipation for your words of wisdom here.

Everyone will get paid the same when the airlines are actually merged, on 1 January 2015, about two years hence. And how management uses its various revenue streams as it changes part of its holdings' business model really has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. Southwest gets a significant revenue source from NFG freight; does that mean they should just give all that revenue straight to the rampers?

And the "other pilots" aren't really to blame here; management is. They made the decision, and neither side had much, if any, say in the matter. Unequivocally, GK is where the buck stops in this case.

Yeah, I can see where SWA/Airtran is JUST like USAir: BK wages on one side, furloughs on the other side, no contract, nothing to look forward to, and 8 years and counting with no end in sight. You're right, General--it's exactly the same. Thank God you're here to point that out.


Bubba

And I knew a retort from Bubba was inevitable. Hey, your merger has NOT gone as well as planned. Your pilots could have stood up for fairness, but they did not. Even though LM was the DL MEC Chair, he still tried to bring both groups together. He did. Then, during the SLI stage with the arbitrator, each side gave an opinion, and the 3 arbitrators gave their ruling. BUT, the joint contract came first, and that was completed in record time, with NWA pilots getting longevity credit for time spent out on furlough (something many UAL pilot may NOT get), the NWA pilots got a larger raise than the DL pilots, and they kept their frozen pensions. Sure, some people are a bit disgruntled by the seniority list, but everyone can blame the arbitrators, not management. That is key here, most of your new brothers and sisters are mad at management and your group for not supporting them with pay issues. You should have fought for them to get your pay, even after they refused the first offer. SC should have stood up and said, "pay them equally". The AT guys were going to get bumped out of their equipment anyway, but they should have the same pay for same equipment until the displacements. What did SWAPA do? All I heard were echos..... You just cannot argue against different pay for same equipment. That aint fair, and YOU KNOW IT BUBBA. SWAPA should have stood up for them. GK is where the buck stops? Ummmm, I think the issue may not have been pressed ENOUGH. CEOs come and go, but the AT pilots will be flying with you now for the rest of your careers. You guys just couldn't stand up, and it was obvious. Sad really. And I love the part about everyone will get same pay in 2 years when the merger is "complete." Who gets the revenue NOW for AT's bag fees? Anyone? Hello?? Can you use that revenue now to pay the pilots equally? Anyone?

The SWA/AT merger is CLOSER to the USAir merger than others because there is ill will between the pilot groups, and or management. I didn't say it was identical.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

And I knew a retort from Bubba was inevitable. Hey, your merger has NOT gone as well as planned. Your pilots could have stood up for fairness, but they did not. Even though LM was the DL MEC Chair, he still tried to bring both groups together. He did. Then, during the SLI stage with the arbitrator, each side gave an opinion, and the 3 arbitrators gave their ruling. BUT, the joint contract came first, and that was completed in record time, with NWA pilots getting longevity credit for time spent out on furlough (something many UAL pilot may NOT get), the NWA pilots got a larger raise than the DL pilots, and they kept their frozen pensions. Sure, some people are a bit disgruntled by the seniority list, but everyone can blame the arbitrators, not management. That is key here, most of your new brothers and sisters are mad at management and your group for not supporting them with pay issues. You should have fought for them to get your pay, even after they refused the first offer. SC should have stood up and said, "pay them equally". The AT guys were going to get bumped out of their equipment anyway, but they should have the same pay for same equipment until the displacements. What did SWAPA do? All I heard were echos..... You just cannot argue against different pay for same equipment. That aint fair, and YOU KNOW IT BUBBA. SWAPA should have stood up for them. GK is where the buck stops? Ummmm, I think the issue may not have been pressed ENOUGH. CEOs come and go, but the AT pilots will be flying with you now for the rest of your careers. You guys just couldn't stand up, and it was obvious. Sad really.

The SWA/AT merger is CLOSER to the USAir merger than others because there is ill will between the pilot groups, and or management. I didn't say it was identical.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You really don't know much about unions, do you? It was Airtran ALPA's job to fight for Airtran pilots, and SWAPA's job to fight for Southwest pilots. I'd bet even PCL and Lear will agree with that. During your merger, at any point did Delta's MEC tell management, "no, you're not giving enough to the other guys; we want you to increase it."? Did they, General? No, of course they didn't. Does that mean that Delta's union failed by not "sticking up" for the Northwest side? That's not how negotiations work.

By the way, it didn't get to arbitration because of management's desire. SWAPA was preparing for such an outcome. And as far as money goes, after the first offer was turned down by Airtran/ALPA's MEC, the company immediately rescinded it, saying that it never should have been offered in the first place, due to its cost. The way Airtran did business (hub & spoke, their pilot efficiency, etc) made it untenable to pay them SWAPA wages in management's eyes. Hell, if stand-alone Airtran couldn't afford to pay its pilots SWAPA wages, why do you think that Southwest management could afford to pay the same SWAPA wages into the same Airtran system? As the pilots transistion to Southwest, with our system and its efficiencies, then they'll get paid SWAPA wages.

As far as ill will goes, there's some of that in every single merger/acquisition in the history of the airlines. Including your beloved Delta. I've heard former NWA guys bitch, as well as United & Continental guys. There's absolutely no way to make everyone one involved in a merger happy. However, comparing any other merger to USAir/AWA is a gross distortion calculated as part of your constant and predictable mud-slinging.

Like I said, it appears you don't know much about how unions operate. It's pretty obvious, however, that you don't know diddly dick about this situation in particular.

Bubba

 

[Lear70]

No, no they're not. It is a train wreck of their own making.

I don't think they were prepared for the jump into the 20th Century (much less the 21st) that the purchase was going to require. It's been a game of "catch-up" ever since, that much is clear.

Requiring a 737 pilot to go through two months of training to learn how to fly the 737 is expensive and just plain silly.

True statement.

Delta/NWA was a "quick" merger. It was done how it should be done.

True again.

Could this technology update help in moving the merger along.

No.

GK and company LIKE our airline. I've started calling it "Southwest Caribbean Express, operated by Southwest Airlines". They LIKE our lower costs and higher ancillary fee structure, and have NO interest in ending it early.

 

[Dash Power]

I really never gave a crap about the Delta/NWA merger and still don't. It would be very strange of me to care about something so remotely removed from me.

Don't feed the biggest troll in forum history guys. You are dealing with a narcissist at psychotic levels. Seriously. 16,509 posts is way off the chart of being normal.

 

[jonjuan]

I really never gave a crap about the Delta/NWA merger and still don't. It would be very strange of me to care about something so remotely removed from me.

Don't feed the biggest troll in forum history guys. You are dealing with a narcissist at psychotic levels. Seriously. 16,509 posts is way off the chart of being normal.

+ 17,000 and his prison husbands.

 

[General Lee]

You really don't know much about unions, do you? It was Airtran ALPA's job to fight for Airtran pilots, and SWAPA's job to fight for Southwest pilots. I'd bet even PCL and Lear will agree with that. During your merger, at any point did Delta's MEC tell management, "no, you're not giving enough to the other guys; we want you to increase it."? Did they, General? No, of course they didn't. Does that mean that Delta's union failed by not "sticking up" for the Northwest side? That's not how negotiations work.

By the way, it didn't get to arbitration because of management's desire. SWAPA was preparing for such an outcome. And as far as money goes, after the first offer was turned down by Airtran/ALPA's MEC, the company immediately rescinded it, saying that it never should have been offered in the first place, due to its cost. The way Airtran did business (hub & spoke, their pilot efficiency, etc) made it untenable to pay them SWAPA wages in management's eyes. Hell, if stand-alone Airtran couldn't afford to pay its pilots SWAPA wages, why do you think that Southwest management could afford to pay the same SWAPA wages into the same Airtran system? As the pilots transistion to Southwest, with our system and its efficiencies, then they'll get paid SWAPA wages.

As far as ill will goes, there's some of that in every single merger/acquisition in the history of the airlines. Including your beloved Delta. I've heard former NWA guys bitch, as well as United & Continental guys. There's absolutely no way to make everyone one involved in a merger happy. However, comparing any other merger to USAir/AWA is a gross distortion calculated as part of your constant and predictable mud-slinging.

Like I said, it appears you don't know much about how unions operate. It's pretty obvious, however, that you don't know diddly dick about this situation in particular.

Bubba

Hi Bubba. You don't seem to understand something BASIC. It is BASIC for SWAPA to fight for everyone, even AFTER the deal is done. First of all, the deal was bad for the AT guys, the second one. Even if arbitration was out of the question, same pay for same planes shouldn't have been. The AT guys were going to get displaced, but why continue to pay them less on the 737? They have to "wait" until they get trained? That is ridiculous, and you know it! AT's bag fees alone could fund many things, including equal pay, but instead they are getting punished for fighting for fairness, something everyone else has a chance at. But noooooooooo. And what does SC say or SWAPA do in defense of their NEW brothers and sisters? Zilch. You know I am correct.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[slaquer5]

And I knew a retort from General Lea was inevitable.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I fixed it for you .

Think you will have 20k post by the end of they year?

 

[General Lee]

I really never gave a crap about the Delta/NWA merger and still don't. It would be very strange of me to care about something so remotely removed from me.

Don't feed the biggest troll in forum history guys. You are dealing with a narcissist at psychotic levels. Seriously. 16,509 posts is way off the chart of being normal.

That's right, a lot of you don't care because your heads are stuffed so far up your own rears. The industry as a whole cares, and we all watch what happens and learn from each other, to better future negotiations. Maybe you don't care about the successes, but USAir's fiasco and now yours show a lot of people how not to handle the situation. Let's hope UAL and AA can get it together and keep it is civil as possible. It's never perfect, but bad examples are easy to spot.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

I really never gave a crap about the Delta/NWA merger and still don't. It would be very strange of me to care about something so remotely removed from me.

Don't feed the biggest troll in forum history guys. You are dealing with a narcissist at psychotic levels. Seriously. 16,509 posts is way off the chart of being normal.

Wow Dash.

That's hitting a 11 on a 10 scale.

I agree 100%.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Woohoo...."the industry is upset"!! Big flippin deal. DALPA has such an amazing track record of standing up for its brothers.....rrriiiggghhhttt! Each union does its own biz. Point one is standing up for the pilots on its own list. Everything else is secondary.

 

[General Lee]

Woohoo...."the industry is upset"!! Big flippin deal. DALPA has such an amazing track record of standing up for its brothers.....rrriiiggghhhttt! Each union does its own biz. Point one is standing up for the pilots on its own list. Everything else is secondary.

Thanks Hugo Chavez! You're awesome! Dalpa stands up for Dalpa members, and then they vote. Your union has continued to forget about it's new members. Same pay for same equipment (737) is just basic. Why wait until 2015? Ridiculous. That is called a JOINT contract? This slow gradual migration over to the Corndog side is also ridiculous. You know that. You don't get paid SWA wages until you go to school? Huh?



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Wow Dash.

That's hitting a 11 on a 10 scale.

I agree 100%.

Wow Red, still going after number of posts instead of the contents... You are actually 0 for 10.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GIZMONC]

Over on airlineforums.com there is a poster AKA PineyBOB, this dude has posted 15,000 posts and changed his name several years ago to SparrowHawk. Some one who post that many post can not possibly have any kind of life. He either lives in front of a computer or has a laptop on his lap all the time. Perhaps General Lee and Pineybob are one in the same.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Swapa stood up for Swapa.

ALPA stood up for AT.

All will be together soon enough.

 

[General Lee]

Over on airlineforums.com there is a poster AKA PineyBOB, this dude has posted 15,000 posts and changed his name several years ago to SparrowHawk. Some one who post that many post can not possibly have any kind of life. He either lives in front of a computer or has a laptop on his lap all the time. Perhaps General Lee and Pineybob are one in the same.

Yeah, that's the ticket! Anyway, not that you are worth it, but here goes, I have been a member here for 13 or 14 years. I do have lots of posts for sure, but I usually answer everyone who responds to me, plus I throw my opinion in whenever I feel it necessary, on different forums, like Majors, Regionals, LCCs, and Cargo. I am interested in different parts of this industry. When guys like you and Redflyer make it so easy for me to respond, my post count continues to climb even higher. Some people can post a lot, but have zero posts that are worth reading. You are starting to resemble that.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Swapa stood up for Swapa.

ALPA stood up for AT.

All will be together soon enough.

That's great, and expected. But, what is the deal with separate pay rates for the same plane type (737) until 2015? Why did SWAPA allow that? Was it punishment for trying to get a fair deal in arbitration, like every other airline got in their mergers? How about now? What do you do now to create the "feeling" of unity instead of them feeling "punished?"



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Wow Red, still going after number of posts instead of the contents... You are actually 0 for 10.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Genital,

Read his first line one more time. Here it is to make it easy for you to comprehend...

I really never gave a crap about the Delta/NWA merger and still don't. It would be very strange of me to care about something so remotely removed from me.

 

[CA Calypso]

Thanks Hugo Chavez! You're awesome! Dalpa stands up for Dalpa members, and then they vote. Your union has continued to forget about it's new members. Same pay for same equipment (737) is just basic. Why wait until 2015? Ridiculous. That is called a JOINT contract? This slow gradual migration over to the Corndog side is also ridiculous. You know that. You don't get paid SWA wages until you go to school? Huh?



Bye Bye---General Lee

None of this rant is based in logic. There is no "joint contract." SWAPA represents its members. No one is a SWAPA member until they have a SWA ID. The rate at which that occurs is not up to SWAPA.

I'm sure you didn't worry so much about your Airtran brothers before SW purchased them.

 

[scoreboardII]

just GL being the internet warlord troll that he is.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Thanks Hugo Chavez! You're awesome! Dalpa stands up for Dalpa members, and then they vote. Your union has continued to forget about it's new members. Same pay for same equipment (737) is just basic.

Wrong. Our union treats all its members the same. You seem to be missing the important point that the pilots getting different pay for the 737 are NOT actually in SWAPA. They're in ALPA, and working for a different company, under different rules, protected by a different union.

Why wait until 2015? Ridiculous. That is called a JOINT contract?

Wrong again. Not now, nor ever a joint contract. There's the SWAPA contract covering Southwest pilots, and the ALPA contract covering Airtran pilots. As they transistion from one company to the other, they simultaneously transition to the other contract and associated payrates.

This slow gradual migration over to the Corndog side is also ridiculous. You know that. You don't get paid SWA wages until you go to school? Huh?

Here, I agree with you partly. It's taking a slow route, but unfortunately, that's up to the company--as long as they comply with the agreement and are done by Dec 2014. Nobody thought they'd putz along and do them all at the end, but that's what they seem to be doing. I suppose it has more to do with our crappy IT dept, and its inability to get a reservation system for international flying any sooner. If we had that done, I'd bet you see Airtran pilots transistioning faster.

Bye Bye---General Lee

You know, you actually made a point against your own argument here, General. D-ALPA stands up for D-ALPA members, just as SWAPA stands up solely for its members. When former Airtran pilots fly 737s for Southwest, and are actually in SWAPA, they WILL get the same pay. Until then, they're flying for a different company, under a different system, and represented by a different union. Hell General, Delta's ALPA is more closely related to Airtran's ALPA than SWAPA is; why didn't YOU guys fight for them to get more money?

And as to why they can't get paid SWAPA rates while flying for Airtran, I believe I explained in in the last post--you just chose to ignore it. Airtran has a different model, with a different system, and with different manning efficiencies. The company has already said that they can't afford to pay SWAPA rates for that kind of flying. Why would you think that: a) it's SWAPA's responsibility to get ALPA members more money; and b) that Southwest management would give a crap what SWAPA thinks about ALPA wages.

Remember, stand-alone Airtran couldn't afford to pay their pilots SWAPA wages; they had a contentious battle just to get what they get now (and that was including the bag fee revenue you like to crow about). Why would you then think that Southwest could afford to pay them SWAPA wages for the Airtran type of flying with the Airtran manning efficiencies? By the way, how about you actually addressing this question, instead of just repeating the same crap over and over again. Do you not see that what you're bitching about doesn't make any sense? The company's stated position was that when they do our kind of flying, they'll get our kind of wages.

Bubba

 

[canyonblue]

Yeah, that's the ticket! Anyway, not that you are worth it, but here goes, I have been a member here for 13 or 14 years.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Yeah well I'm going to have to call you out in this one, you have NOT been on this forum for 13 or 14 years. How do I know? Because I have been here that long. In the Fall of 2001 this forum underwent a change and everyones join date was reset to 11-25-2001 if you were a member prior to that. On this thread the only ones who were here prior to that were myself and Citrusflyer, anyone can correct me if I am wrong. It's very easy to see the forum "seniority list", just go to this link:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/memberlist.php?&pp=30&order=asc&sort=joindate

As for Gackass Lee it's:

Join Date
08-24-2002
Total Posts
16,517

So back off JUNIOR.

 

[General Lee]

None of this rant is based in logic. There is no "joint contract." SWAPA represents its members. No one is a SWAPA member until they have a SWA ID. The rate at which that occurs is not up to SWAPA.

I'm sure you didn't worry so much about your Airtran brothers before SW purchased them.

And SWAPA is OK with that? That is what is wrong here. Why have two seperate groups? Why pay people less when they will be sharing the cockpit with you eventually? Don't you think they will remember that? SWAPA must have zero pull with JK. And management brings AT guys over at a rate of their choosing? Who negotiated this again? Horrible. Admit it, please.

Btw, I certainly never stated anything duragatory about the FNWA pilot group as a whole while we were doing the merge. I really can't say I've seen the same, at least on this board, between your groups. You need to work on that.


Bye Bye---General Lee