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ASA DTW CP pulls IAD pilot offline for refusing aircraft

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COOPERVANE

COOPERVANE

Member since 1967
Joined
Mar 2, 2002
Posts
2,167
Apparently a Dulles Captain refused to fly an aircraft after a long duty day full of MTC delays. The aircraft had a deferred autopilot and the trip was IAD-HSV or a similar route. Pretty long block to hand fly at the end of a long day.

There was a spare but dispatch refused to swap. CP pulled the Capt offline and assigned the trip to a RR. The RR also refused the aircraft. Anybody know more details?

Who is this POS ASSISTANT chief pilot?
 
You are either fatigued or not. It has nothing to do with the mtc discrepancies on the aircraft. You can't tell the CP that you're fatigued if the AP is deferred but not fatigued if you get an aircraft that has a working AP. Gotta be more to the story.
 
I know a few people who were trying to be forced to fly busted equip in iad and the dtw chief is a ******************************. it's all about completion factor with total disregard to safety and common sense when dealing with him. I flew with him before he was a chief and he was not anything like he is now . the power/jobtitle has gone to his head .
 
CRJ puppy said:
You are either fatigued or not. It has nothing to do with the mtc discrepancies on the aircraft. You can't tell the CP that you're fatigued if the AP is deferred but not fatigued if you get an aircraft that has a working AP. Gotta be more to the story.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right. There is:
1. fully alert like you just had 10 hours of sleep, your morning run and a venti starbucks; or,
2. dog-arsed tired like you can't even make it to your car.

There is nothing in between. It's either yes or no. Black or white, off or on, true or false.
 
I've NEVER refused an aircraft with the autopilot deferred......but I was alert, rested and felt confident it wouldn't be a problem EVERY time I've accepted the plane.

But if I ever do, I expect to be supported and treated like a professional who knows what I am doing and my limitations.

We need to make sure PIC authority is respected at this POS company.

We need to support this Captain.
 
ibnav8r said:
you're absolutely right. There is:
1. Fully alert like you just had 10 hours of sleep, your morning run and a venti starbucks; or,
2. Dog-arsed tired like you can't even make it to your car.

There is nothing in between. It's either yes or no. Black or white, off or on, true or false.
Click to expand...


exactly!!!!
 
This is bs. Pulled offline? Figure out the real story and get back. You just don't get pulled offline unless there is a reason. Was the Captain acting like a weiner or is the new assistant chief looking for an atta boy from Sleezy Scotty.
 
Fuad M. is one of the best chief pilots ASA has had in a while. He should teach new guys what effective leadership is. They could learn a lot from him.
 
Last edited:
Look here, a thread on FI that might be useful to read about.

Question for you all.

Let's say it's been a long day, and you feel that without the autopilot, safety may be compromised because you are tired and unable to think straight. With the autopilot doing all the work, you feel comfortable enough flying to your destination as you monitor the airplane. Taking the focus off of FATIGUE which I see some on here are saying is black or white, and putting it on SAFETY which is more of a gray area.

Thoughts??
 
Stifler's Mom said:
Look here, a thread on FI that might be useful to read about.

Question for you all.

Let's say it's been a long day, and you feel that without the autopilot, safety may be compromised because you are tired and unable to think straight. With the autopilot doing all the work, you feel comfortable enough flying to your destination as you monitor the airplane. Taking the focus off of FATIGUE which I see some on here are saying is black or white, and putting it on SAFETY which is more of a gray area.

Thoughts??
Click to expand...

If you are so tired and can only think straight with an operable auto pilot, you shouldn't be flying. Period.

My god. I can't believe any responsible pilot would think otherwise. Good grief. What if ANYTHING went wrong on this flight?!?!

This HAS to be some sort of flaming trolling expedition...
 
Does ASA not have a fatigue call policy? At xjt you simply call in fatigued and that's it. Especially if there's a reserve there at the airport, why would a CP even get involved?

When do we see the lawsuit about the airline pressuring pilots to fly fatigued?
 
Last edited:
BigPappa said:
Fuad M. is one of the best chief pilots ASA has had in a while. He should teach new guys what effective leadership is. They could learn a lot from him.
Click to expand...

What I mean is the DTW chief C.H. could learn a lot from F.M.
 
CRJ puppy said:
If you are so tired and can only think straight with an operable auto pilot, you shouldn't be flying. Period.

My god. I can't believe any responsible pilot would think otherwise. Good grief. What if ANYTHING went wrong on this flight?!?!

This HAS to be some sort of flaming trolling expedition...
Click to expand...

What he/she said...
 
I'm asking hypothetical questions to see what people think.

I think that if I am tired enough, and know my body well enough, that hand flying for two hours to HSV or BFE, may not be wise. By the time I arrive at my destination, I may not be alert enough, I should be able to refuse the ac for safety reasons.
 
Hand-flying an entire flight is much more tiring than handflying the takeoff and landing and letting Otto do his thing for the other 80%. Given that so much of normal ops today are with the autopilot engaged, even the most alert airline pilot is going to have highly atrophied hand-flying skills across all segments of a flight.

Throw in a long day, late night, running behind, inclement weather, busy airspace, a body not used to that circadian rhythm, other factors not mentioned or a combination thereof and you've got a recipe for a lousy ride for the pax at best, ATC violation or incident at worst.

Mission-oriented machismo or not, a man's always gotta know his limitations...
 
This has BH written all over it, he hates it when he thinks pilots are mutinying, like refusing a POS A/C. Hand flying a 200 for 2 hours at FL380 is fatiguing. If I was at the end of a long day, with many messes I wouldn't have gone either.
 
PBRstreetgang said:
This has BH written all over it, he hates it when he thinks pilots are mutinying, like refusing a POS A/C. Hand flying a 200 for 2 hours at FL380 is fatiguing. If I was at the end of a long day, with many messes I wouldn't have gone either.
Click to expand...


Can't hand fly in RVSM....but I still get your point.
 
But if you're tired and relying on the autopilot you shouldn't be flying. What if the autopilot fails during the flight? That being said, this guy probably did the right thing.
 
The story went like this...

First captain refused the POS because no autopilot on a 2hr blocked leg to HSV (for a roundtrip). DTW chief pilot (C.H.) became heated and called the captain unprofessional for refusing the aircraft and pulled her offline. Then at 1:00am the next captain refused the POS (now besides the autopilot being deferred, the APU was deferred along with the fuel indications) because the flight was into LGA on the Korry 3 arrival with a pretty green FO. The flight was completed using the perfectly good airplane that was at the remote parking. Flight arrived in LGA around 2:30am.

Because of the DTW chief pilot's decision, it caused the flight to be severely delayed when all it took was to the 15 minute aircraft swap when that is actually what happened anyway after the captain was pulled offline. When it's all said and done, I think the DTW chief was the "unprofessional" one here.
 
Yeah, cause the level of work load isnt increased with a deferred AP...

The pilot had better push back hard on this one and fight to be made whole regarding the suspension.

So many factors at play here.

BTW, the nose gear steering was deferrable too, are you being unprofessional when refusing to operate the aircraft then?

Who gets blamed when something goes wrong and the deferral was a contributing factor?

The CREW does.
 

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