It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[dh82dvr]

I

How about looking at the freakin' simple fact: they are going from low end to very high end. Period.

I would say its an improvement, but as to where we ALL should be its not high end.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Some get it, some don't:

How about looking at the freakin' simple fact: they are going from low end to very high end. Period.

Doesn't get it.

And again the question hangs unanswered...why do you care what other SWA pilots earn? Does it reduce your pay somehow? Or is it just an excuse to staple 650 AAI F/Os, ban them from upgrading for a decade and ensuring you jump the upgrade line?

I think the answer is obvious.

Upgrades have more to due with money than QOL since we all take a QOL hit when we upgrade.... I do however think fair and equitable means that those gains should not come at my expense.

Sort of gets it...But, again, the primary goal of Mr. Beech is that he wants to upgrade out of seniority before 650 AAI pilots. The junior F/Os dream!

Dumb *ss! Tranny is a sub-par airline. Remember not ONE swa pilot had an application to be a pilot at your exceptional(?) Airline..

Totally out to lunch. titan somehow believes that his third world entry jet gear jerking job qualifies him as a "superpilot" because the tin is painted blue.

Get a clue, titan. Lufthansa puts 350 hour ab initio pilots with wet ink commecial licenses in the right seat of 737s and they do just as good a job as you do. Probalby better, because they have some humility.

I don't hate at all, just refuting his statement that AAI is a low paying LCC....A 32 % loss of seniority is a bitter pill to swallow. Would you vote yes for something like that?

Gets it.

Fred,

You instantly qualify as a hater if you express an opinion contrary to SWA groupthink. You may be forced in the future to keep rational thought you yourself if you intend to succeed in their "culture." Be sure to get a rayon flag tie and a big watch so you blend in.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Fuji What I get is that I'm trying not to lose the retirements that my side of this acquisition brings to the table. Thats what my upgrade date is based on. All this list does is keep me from moving backwards.
Just to clarify your position. Do you believe that those upgrades due to SWA retirements should go to AAI not SWAPA pilots?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Your entire argument is based on a faulty premise, i.e. that the conditions that were in force before the merger should remain in force after the merger. Again, the whole "career expectations" b.s.

Career expectations was introduced as a way to keep pilots whose airline consisted of narrowbody equipment off the widebody equipment of their merger partner. It was, in effect, just a way of relegating those "inferior" narrowbody pilots from the high paying widebody international flying.

It was, to put it bluntly, a seniority grab. Those pilots who were hired at the widebody operator thought they were "entitled" to those seats because, after all, the narrowbody guys had no "expectation" of ever flying one.

Its the same thing you guys are trying to do to AAI pilots, only you're using pay as the "career expectation".

The single biggest mistake ALPA has made in 50 years was rolling over to UAL pilots in the early '90s and removing DoH as a criteria for SLI mergers and replacing it with "career expectations." And the whole reason they did it was to keep USAir pilots "in their place" in a merger that never went through.

Look, fair is fair. At some point, you're all going to be one group. If SWA persists in trying to make AAI guys second class citizens by stapleing 650 pilots and banning them from upgrading, YOU as a Captain are going to have CRM problems when you fly with them.

Do you really think those stapled pilots aren't going to have a list of guys who jumped the line ahead of them? Your vaunted "SWA culture" is going to take a huge hit. There are still guys who are chapped about the AS/JA SLI and that went down in 1987.

Really, guys. Get over yourselves. Every single red herring you try to apply to screw the AAI pilots is bogus and deep down you know it. You're just trying to advance yourselves at the expense of other guys you're going to have to see every day for the rest of your careers.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

A lot of people are questioning the AT MC and their decision to accept a deal like this. If the AT pilots don't like it as a whole, it has to go back for rework, and that could lead to arbitration, which is a gamble for each side. If the SWA pilots want more from this deal, they may want to ask for it FROM MANAGEMENT, not take it from your future brothers and sisters. Ask for a small raise or stock for your participation.



OYS

I think I understand why they accepted this deal. They get raises, keep their seats, and the vast majority will only be bidding against other AAI pilots on a monthly basis. If thats not enough their MEC or membership have the right to vote it down and make their case in front of the arbitration panel. If they choose that route they might lose something from the above list.
I don't see where the SWAPA pilots are taking anything from our future bothers and sisters in the AIP. It's by and large nuetral for us as I have explained at length in this thread. All it really does is allow us to keep our upgrade based on our retirements.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Your entire argument is based on a faulty premise, i.e. that the conditions that were in force before the merger should remain in force after the merger. Again, the whole "career expectations" b.s.

Career expectations was introduced as a way to keep pilots whose airline consisted of narrowbody equipment off the widebody equipment of their merger partner. It was, in effect, just a way of relegating those "inferior" narrowbody pilots from the high paying widebody international flying.

It was, to put it bluntly, a seniority grab. Those pilots who were hired at the widebody operator thought they were "entitled" to those seats because, after all, the narrowbody guys had no "expectation" of ever flying one.

Its the same thing you guys are trying to do to AAI pilots, only you're using pay as the "career expectation".

The single biggest mistake ALPA has made in 50 years was rolling over to UAL pilots in the early '90s and removing DoH as a criteria for SLI mergers and replacing it with "career expectations." And the whole reason they did it was to keep USAir pilots "in their place" in a merger that never went through.

Look, fair is fair. At some point, you're all going to be one group. If SWA persists in trying to make AAI guys second class citizens by stapleing 650 pilots and banning them from upgrading, YOU as a Captain are going to have CRM problems when you fly with them.

Do you really think those stapled pilots aren't going to have a list of guys who jumped the line ahead of them? Your vaunted "SWA culture" is going to take a huge hit. There are still guys who are chapped about the AS/JA SLI and that went down in 1987.

Really, guys. Get over yourselves. Every single red herring you try to apply to screw the AAI pilots is bogus and deep down you know it. You're just trying to advance yourselves at the expense of other guys you're going to have to see every day for the rest of your careers.

Fuji OK I'll play. Lets, as you suggested, abandon the premis that conditions that existed before the acquisition should me maintained after the acquistion. You like a DOH solution. I'll go with that as long as there is a complete system rebid based on that list afterwards. We would have to because the conditions that were in place prior to the acquisition are meaningless afterwards. Therefore there would be no way that a 6 year guy should remain a captain while a 10 year guy is an f/o.

 

[scoreboardII]

Your entire argument is based on a faulty premise, i.e. that the conditions that were in force before the merger should remain in force after the merger. Again, the whole "career expectations" b.s. .

So you agree seat locks are faulty? Good.

 

[PCL_128]

All it really does is allow us to keep our upgrade based on our retirements.

I agree that you should keep your upgrades based on your retirements. What I don't agree with is that you should get the extra upgrade slots that come from the deliveries of our airplane orders, ensuring that not a single AirTran FO upgrades for the next 13 years, with many not upgrading for well over 20 years. What I also don't agree with is our captains being mixed in with your FOs, ensuring that our guys stay stuck on the bottom on reserve as SWA FOs upgrade ahead of them, even though many of them were hired later. None of this is remotely "fair and equitable."

 

[Lear70]

Here's a challenge to every troll, tranny, and hater on here: name ONE real thing that a Swapa pilot will get out of this that an AT pilot will not??

2 Things:

1. Upgrade in the next decade (and none of us, even this AIP's cheerleaders, are trying to push the "virtual upgrade by pay" argument - it's not the same as upgrading. Most of us have spent the majority of our careers in the left seat. We like it there, and so do you. It's OK to say so. Really.

2. Override pay for flying for someone junior to you by Date of Hire. You get a 25% override to your existing rates if you get a line with someone junior to you by DoH as your CA. We don't when the shoe goes on the other foot, and it does by the end of the 9 year upgrade lock-out, and stays that way for another decade, much longer than your guys will have to fly with ours and in much higher numbers (there are over 1,500 guys who will be senior to me with lesser Dates of Hire).

I'm not angry about either of those, although I'm not thrilled by the first one (a 9 year lock-out on upgrades? Even for our own top 20 senior guys who were next to upgrade in the next few months in which their upgrade class was cancelled just prior to vacancy notice because of this deal?).

Just playing Devil's Advocate that there ARE benefits for the SWA pilots from this. Never said there shouldn't be.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I agree that you should keep your upgrades based on your retirements. What I don't agree with is that you should get the extra upgrade slots that come from the deliveries of our airplane orders, ensuring that not a single AirTran FO upgrades for the next 13 years, with many not upgrading for well over 20 years. What I also don't agree with is our captains being mixed in with your FOs, ensuring that our guys stay stuck on the bottom on reserve as SWA FOs upgrade ahead of them, even though many of them were hired later. None of this is remotely "fair and equitable."

PCL Your opinion is based on the assumption that AAI would have continued to grown minus the acquisition. Can you ensure that had the acquisition not happened that AAI would have grown and not sold off those delivery slots? Can you promise me that without the acquisition that AAI management would have not farmed out your flying to Skywest or someone else and then shrank your fleet while maintaining the AAI system ASMs?
There will be no extra upgrade slots based on your deliveries. Welcome to the reality of the no growth environment. SWA has lots of deliveries too but deliveries don't equal upgrade slots without fleet growth. There would be no upgrades at AAI without fleet growth becuase you have no retirements. I can say with certainty that there would be upgrades at SWA even in a zero growth environment. If there is growth based on anything the AAI pilots will benefit along with the SWA pilots and the upgrade dates will move forward for everyone. Whats your upgrade date at AAI in a no growth environment? Mine at SWA is 17 years out.
The other thing you are missing is that very few of your captains will be stuck on reserve in the Southwest system. Most will be living in an AAI bubble either in ATL or on the 717.

 

[Music]

This whole thread and every other thread like it has become pointless. Everyone keeps saying the same stuff. Well here's some new stuff (at least from me FWIW).

I have read every document (more than a few times now) and as much as I want to salute and move on I can't. I can't in good conscience vote for an agreement (if it ever gets that far) that unfair for others and bad for me and my family. As an 11 year 737 captain I would keep my seat and most likely go from partial weekends off in ATL to being on reserve. To make matters worse, I have no doubt that as our junior 737 captains take it in the shorts trying to hold on to their captain seat while bouncing around to every junior SW base they will eventually tire of that and voluntarily downgrade for QOL reasons. This will return an AT captain retention slot and subsequently a SW FO will receive an upgrade. Because I've given up nearly 4 years of seniority, I will slowly fall down the pole in ATL (as AT guys below me in ATL give up and downgrade as well) until I eventually give up. This chain of events comes at the price of now waiting for all of the SW FOs to upgrade before I can return to the left seat. As I've said before, I don't care which seat I sit in, but living with this agreement will be like living with cancer, a slow painful death (from a QOL standpoint for me). And before you say the money matters, it doesn't, at least not to me. And no, I never had an app in at SWA. For no other reason, because I was content in my position.

Moving forward, I will vote no (if given the chance). Make no mistake, I want to make this work, I really do, but I just can't vote for this, and it hurts to say that.

With that said I understand the potential consequences and if I am kept from joining SWA, so be it. I'll have to find work somewhere else. If that occurs, there will be one undeniable truth: The famous SWA culture would be more akin to group of fascists, then a family. If I am forced to find another job strictly because the 4-party Process Agreement was followed (whatever the outcome) then what else is there to say.

I fully expect you to flame away, because that's what most do here.

Respectfully, Sighhhhhhh....

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

2 Things:

1. Upgrade in the next decade (and none of us, even this AIP's cheerleaders, are trying to push the "virtual upgrade by pay" argument - it's not the same as upgrading. Most of us have spent the majority of our careers in the left seat. We like it there, and so do you. It's OK to say so. Really.

2. Override pay for flying for someone junior to you by Date of Hire. You get a 25% override to your existing rates if you get a line with someone junior to you by DoH as your CA. We don't when the shoe goes on the other foot, and it does by the end of the 9 year upgrade lock-out, and stays that way for another decade, much longer than your guys will have to fly with ours and in much higher numbers (there are over 1,500 guys who will be senior to me with lesser Dates of Hire).

I'm not angry about either of those, although I'm not thrilled by the first one (a 9 year lock-out on upgrades? Even for our own top 20 senior guys who were next to upgrade in the next few months in which their upgrade class was cancelled just prior to vacancy notice because of this deal?).

Just playing Devil's Advocate that there ARE benefits for the SWA pilots from this. Never said there shouldn't be.

I'll give you a 50 percent on this one. The only upgrades that we see either with or without this acquistion are based on our retirements.

 

[GoodTimes]

Music,

This thing sucks for both sides. It's all about perspective.

 

[Cometman]

This whole thread and every other thread like it has become pointless. Everyone keeps saying the same stuff. Well here's some new stuff (at least from me FWIW).

I have read every document (more than a few times now) and as much as I want to salute and move on I can't. I can't in good conscience vote for an agreement (if it ever gets that far) that unfair for others and bad for me and my family. As an 11 year 737 captain I would keep my seat and most likely go from partial weekends off in ATL to being on reserve. To make matters worse, I have no doubt that as our junior 737 captains take it in the shorts trying to hold on to their captain seat while bouncing around to every junior SW base they will eventually tire of that and voluntarily downgrade for QOL reasons. This will return an AT captain retention slot and subsequently a SW FO will receive an upgrade. Because I've given up nearly 4 years of seniority, I will slowly fall down the pole in ATL (as AT guys below me in ATL give up and downgrade as well) until I eventually give up. This chain of events comes at the price of now waiting for all of the SW FOs to upgrade before I can return to the left seat. As I've said before, I don't care which seat I sit in, but living with this agreement will be like living with cancer, a slow painful death (from a QOL standpoint for me). And before you say the money matters, it doesn't, at least not to me. And no, I never had an app in at SWA. For no other reason, because I was content in my position.

Moving forward, I will vote no (if given the chance). Make no mistake, I want to make this work, I really do, but I just can't vote for this, and it hurts to say that.

With that said I understand the potential consequences and if I am kept from joining SWA, so be it. I'll have to find work somewhere else. If that occurs, there will be one undeniable truth: The famous SWA culture would be more akin to group of fascists, then a family. If I am forced to find another job strictly because the 4-party Process Agreement was followed (whatever the outcome) then what else is there to say.

I fully expect you to flame away, because that's what most do here.

Respectfully, Sighhhhhhh....

Give me a break. You will never vote NO and you will never give up your seat. You will vote yes because it is human nature. You care about yourself and you do not care about anybody else. You might say you do but behind close doors you will vote yes because it benefits you. Nobody is buying your sad story.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL Your opinion is based on the assumption that AAI would have continued to grown minus the acquisition.

Not entirely. We have about 15-20 retirements a year. With this deal, we lose all of our own attrition and our senior FOs don't even get upgrades from our own retirements. Guys that would have been captains late last year are left waiting 13 years, with many of them retiring before they can ever hold an upgrade slot. Absolutely ridiculous.

Can you ensure that had the acquisition not happened that AAI would have grown and not sold off those delivery slots?

Nothing is ever guaranteed, but it's highly unlikely that all growth would have stopped. Maybe it would have slowed, but growth would have continued barring some unforeseen circumstance like another 9/11.

Can you promise me that without the acquisition that AAI management would have not farmed out your flying to Skywest or someone else and then shrank your fleet while maintaining the AAI system ASMs?

Our scope language didn't really allow for much outsourcing.

Whats your upgrade date at AAI in a no growth environment? Mine at SWA is 17 years out.

Mine was the same as yours, actually: 17 years. Upgrade would have been in early 2028 with zero growth.

The other thing you are missing is that very few of your captains will be stuck on reserve in the Southwest system. Most will be living in an AAI bubble either in ATL or on the 717.

By reducing the size of ATL by half, that destroys much of the protection that you reference. Tons of 737 pilots will be bumped out of ATL into the SWA system with no seniority, and will be stuck on reserve for many years. Even the 717 pilots in ATL will watch their relative seniority within their bid category get hammered as the base is downsized.

 

[Music]

Give me a break. You will never vote NO and you will never give up your seat. You will vote yes because it is human nature. You care about yourself and you do not care about anybody else. You might say you do but behind close doors you will vote yes because it benefits you. Nobody is buying your sad story.

I'm not trying to "sell" my story to anyone. And while you may think that this is some "ploy" by me to change people's minds, you're mistaken. I only speak for myself, period. Regardless of what you may think, I will vote no (again, if it goes to a membership vote), and I will do it begrudgingly knowing all the possible ramifications.

 

[Music]

Music,

This thing sucks for both sides. It's all about perspective.

Agreed. And I would expect pilots at SWA to vote their conscience based on a through examination of the agreement and how it effects them as well.

 

[Whine Lover]

Cometman,

I "buy" his story.

It's NOT all about money, and he explained what his priorities were.

Hard to believe, I know, but some of us think differently than the rest.

( Said the Man who just passed up a 747 Captain's seat after only 1 year at his new employer...")

WHAT? WHO would do that? You may ask.

I suppose you don't believe that either...But it's true.

WHY?

Basically for the same main reason our friend Music previously mentioned:

- QOL

+ I don't need the extra money

+ I don't need the extra responsibility

+ I don't need the "prestige"

+ I already have the cool hat

+ Chicks dig me anyway....( after I explain to them... exactly why.)

We don't all think alike, money is not the only motivator, and it's a smart individual who does not base his decisions on what seems to be the obvious....Because many times, it isn't.

YKMKR

P.S. - I forgot to add another reason: After 12 years as a Boeing Captain previously, my SIC time is sorely lacking, so I am trying to build that up. Then I'll have that going for me too.... Which will be nice.

 

[Ty Webb]

I think we would quite a few junior CA's give up the seat, if they had any seniority as an FO to fall back on. Under this agreement, I doubt many will give it up, just to be a mid-level FO.

That's part of the problem with this agreement, it isn't an "organic" solution. DOH would have been more logical, and probably would have resulted in 250+ CA seats going to SWA FO's. Instead, there will be a sub-caste of migrant-worker Captains. These 5 month Captains will be FO's during slow months, and CA's during the summer.

 

[Cometman]

Cometman,

I "buy" his story.

It's NOT all about money, and he explained what his priorities were.

Hard to believe, I know, but some of us think differently than the rest.

( Said the Man who just passed up a 747 Captain's seat after only 1 year at his new employer...")

WHAT? WHO would do that? You may ask.

I suppose you don't believe that either...But it's true.

WHY?

Basically for the same main reason our friend Music previously mentioned:

- QOL

+ I don't need the extra money

+ I don't need the extra responsibility

+ I don't need the "prestige"

+ I already have the cool hat

+ Chicks dig me anyway....( after I explain to them... exactly why.)

We don't all think alike, money is not the only motivator, and it's a smart individual who does not base his decisions on what seems to be the obvious....Because many times, it isn't.

YKMKR

P.S. - I forgot to add another reason: After 12 years as a Boeing Captain previously, my SIC time is sorely lacking, so I am trying to build that up. Then I'll have that going for me too.... Which will be nice.

When it is all over there will be ZERO Airtran Captains that give up their seat. What they say here to show support for their First Officers is just bull. They care about themselves. The junior First Officers will also vote yes to get away from Airtran. You now have 51%. In the real world nobody cares about anybody except their immediate family and themselves. When a pilot dies the first think you ask is what was his seniority number. If it was junior to you then you feel bad. If he was senior you move up one. That is life and you need to get use to it. I know it sounds cruel but that is the way it is. This goes for the SWA side also.