USAPA's Illegal Job Action Causing Pilot Terminations.

[cactusboy53]

One big problem with the KP is a lack of aircraft utilization rates. We currently have min rates in our contract and the company violated our contract to go below the minimum while we had pilots on furlough! If they would do it then I'm guessing they would really take advantage of it if it weren't even in the contract meaning furloughing pilots. Like you said Cactusboy, there are many other parts of it that need to to be negotiated so will the end result still be called the "Kirby Proposal" if every section is differant? It is so bad we have to start from scratch.

Charlie;
I'm trying to understand your rationalization. In a time that the economy is just starting to recover (ever so barely), and we are experiencing record loads & slight profits.....you are telling me that it's going to be DOH or Separate Operations w/ LOA 93 so as to hog tie the company to the keep aircraft utilization where it's at?

Again I say, our NAC is NEGOTIATING AWAY from many of the tenets of the KP. Why would anyone do that.....with the possible exception to "buy" a DOH contract from the company?? You will not get DOH, and USAPA is buying only DELAY with our dues money.

Our contract in PHX isn't too bad. The KP is basically that with some improvements. If USAPA would STOP chasing it's tail, we could all get a better contract with at least the DAL pay (working together).

BTW....DAL is getting ready to negotiate a SECOND contract after the merge with NWAL. The ONLY way LEGALLY to a new contract is the acceptance of the Nicolau award and a strong joint force at the negotiating table. It's your choice.....move forward or watch EVERYONE ELSE move well past you.

Any LCC Embraer Captains out there??? JETBLUE Embraer senior captains are making $143 and hour!!! American Eagle & Skywest are so tight on crew that they are paying 200-300% credit.....A $75 hour RJ captain is making $150-$225 an hour to move 50 people around in an RJ!

When will you be ready to move in the right direction?

 

[charlie2]

The KP also contains PBS which in previous posts I aknowledged that I need to take a close look at it but everyone I talk to/fly with is so dead set against it. Let's leave seniority or lack there of out of this for a second. The KP is so very bad in our eyes. Not to be disrespectful but AWA pilots were always very low in pay and benies compared to other 757 operators so I can see why the KP looks good to you guys but it looks really really bad to us. It was Mr. Kirbys job to propose crap to us.

 

[charlie2]

Oh and min utilization rates are critical.

 

[Bad-Andy]

Oh and min utilization rates are critical.

That cannot be emphasized enough. No min fleet count/ no min block hours, no contract (not DOH, Nic, or any other list). They will gut this place if they can, if for no other reason than to try in ernest for another merger...

 

[cactusboy53]

The KP also contains PBS which in previous posts I aknowledged that I need to take a close look at it but everyone I talk to/fly with is so dead set against it. Let's leave seniority or lack there of out of this for a second. The KP is so very bad in our eyes. Not to be disrespectful but AWA pilots were always very low in pay and benies compared to other 757 operators so I can see why the KP looks good to you guys but it looks really really bad to us. It was Mr. Kirbys job to propose crap to us.

Chuck;
I'm going to look for an actual PDF of what the KP proposal is exactly. My understanding is that is essentially the AWA contract with some improvements + a 3% increase in wage for the AWA folks (just under 18% increase for east senior folks).

Here is the link for the AWA contract (available on WINGS): https://wings.usairways.com/uswings/workgroups/flightops/WestContract2004a.pdf

Regarding PBS, here are some examples of what some vacation holders got with PBS in AUG:

Date Trip Check-in Flight(City) Layover Release Block Credit
---- -------- --------- ------------------- ------- -------- ------- ----
M 1 8301 4:30 PHX 0680(CLT) 18:28
T 2 " 0391(LAS)-0104(LAX) 18:54
W 3 " 0122(PHX)-0122(MKE) 14:47
T 4 " 0522(PHX)-0522(RNO)
" -0085(PHX) Th 14:28 21:57 21:57
F 5
S 6
S 7 8296 20:50 PHX 0689(EWR) 111
M 8 " 0497(CLT)-0497(DEN) 15:38
T 9 " 0073(PHX)-0269(SMF)
" -0268(PHX) Tu 21:17 15:43 15:45
W 10
T 11
F 12
S 13
S 14
M 15 VA 2:31
T 16 VA
W 17 VA
T 18 VA
F 19 VA
S 20 VA
S 21 VA Mo 2:29 25:40
M 22 VA 2:31
T 23 VA
W 24 VA
T 25 VA
F 26 VA
S 27 VA
S 28 VA Mo 2:29 25:40
M 29
T 30
W 31 (THAT'S 22 DAYS OFF IN A ROW WITH 8902 CREDIT!!!)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TAFB : 130:25 Excess Credit: 00
Total Calendar Days Off : 10 Total Block : 37:40
Credit Range : [780 920] Total Credit : 8902
********************************************************
Date Trip Check-in Flight(City) Layover Release Block Credit
---- -------- --------- ------------------- ------- -------- ------- ----
M 1 C/I Mo 19:20 7:48 7:56
T 2
W 3
T 4 8716 160 PHX DH0092(PDX)
" -0505(CLT) 13:15
F 5 " 0377(SMF) 22:45
S 6 " 0378(CLT) 12:47
S 7 " 0309(PHX) Su 21:18 191 21:40
M 8 VA 2:31
T 9 VA
W 10 VA
T 11 VA
F 12 VA
S 13 VA
S 14 VA Mo 2:29 25:40
M 15
T 16
W 17
T 18
F 19
S 20
S 21
M 22 VA 2:31
T 23 VA
W 24 VA
T 25 VA
F 26 VA
S 27 VA
S 28 VA Mo 2:29 25:40
M 29
T 30
W 31 (THAT'S 24 DAYS OFF IN A ROW WITH 80:56 CREDIT!!!)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TAFB : 9408 Excess Credit: 00
Total Calendar Days Off : 12 Total Block : 26:49
Credit Range : [780 920] Total Credit : 80:56
**********************************************************
Date Trip Check-in Flight(City) Layover Release Block Credit
---- -------- --------- ------------------- ------- -------- ------- ----
M 1 8386 6:40 PHX 0602(LAS)-0051(PHX)
" -0051(MSP) 12:55
T 2 " 0059(CLT)-0487(DEN) 15:36
W 3 " 0652(PHX)-0044(DCA) 145
T 4 " 0334(PHX) Th 9:30 22:33 22:33
F 5
S 6
S 7
M 8 8386 6:40 PHX 0602(LAS)-0051(PHX)
" -0051(MSP) 12:55
T 9 " 0059(CLT)-0487(DEN) 15:36
W 10 " 0652(PHX)-0044(DCA) 145
T 11 " 0334(PHX) Th 9:30 22:33 22:33
F 12
S 13
S 14
M 15 VA 2:31
T 16 VA
W 17 VA
T 18 VA
F 19 VA
S 20 VA
S 21 VA Mo 2:29 25:40
M 22
T 23
W 24
T 25
F 26
S 27
S 28 8415 7:30 PHX 0302(CLT)-0121(ORD) 114
M 29 " 0004(PHX)-0304(CLT) 13:33
T 30 " 0565(MCO) 21:19
W 31 " 0195(PHX) We 9:21 200 210(THAT'S 16 DAYS OFF IN A ROW WITH 91:46 CREDIT!!!)
----------------------------------------------------
TAFB : 223:31 Excess Credit: 00
Total Calendar Days Off : 12 Total Block : 656
Credit Range : [780 920] Total Credit : 91:46
*********************************************************
Date Trip Check-in Flight(City) Layover Release Block Credit
---- -------- --------- ------------------- ------- -------- ------- ----
M 1 8044 11:15 PHX 0612(ATL) 11:22
T 2 " 0308(CLT)-0029(ATL)
" -0029(PHX) Tu 12:50 10:11 10:30
W 3
T 4
F 5
S 6
S 7
M 8 VA 2:31
T 9 VA
W 10 VA
T 11 VA
F 12 VA
S 13 VA
S 14 VA Mo 2:29 25:40
M 15 VA 2:31
T 16 VA
W 17 VA
T 18 VA
F 19 VA
S 20 VA
S 21 VA Mo 2:29 25:40
M 22
T 23
W 24
T 25
F 26
S 27
S 28
M 29 8231 12:40 PHX 0450(SLC)-0128(PHX)
" -0128(MKE) 16:24
T 30 " 0454(PHX)-0454(SLC) 13:42
W 31 " 0490(PHX)-0490(DEN)
" -0491(PHX) We 19:29 170 170(THAT'S 26 DAYS OFF IN A ROW WITH 78:50 CREDIT!!!)
-------------------------------------------------------------
TAFB : 80:24 Excess Credit: 00
Total Calendar Days Off : 12 Total Block : 27:11
Credit Range : [780 920] Total Credit : 78:50

PBS is NOT a BAD thing. The keys to success is to be sure that your UNION retains specific control and you make sure that you have a few Subject Matter Experts (SME's) to make sure the company does NOT take advantage of your program. The other keys are to learn the system bidding. Seniority and bidding knowledge gets you what you can hold.

CB

 

[Crzipilot]

How 'bout putting up schedules of low end block holders...capt and f/o? No vacation...

 

[Bringupthebird]

PHX could very well become just a "focus city". It is the least profitable out of CLT,PHL,DCA, PHX. Mostly a leasure maret.....

It's not a just a market, it's a hub to connect the western US with the rest of the US network. US has a proven track record of failure when trying to run it's airline exclusively out of the east.

Why would anyone want to go to CLT?

The east would prefer to blame their history on a series of villains rather than objectively looking at the circumstances (because they would then see how they shoulder so much of the blame).

 

[Boeing747Driver]

How 'bout putting up schedules of low end block holders...capt and f/o? No vacation...

I never did understand why a Line Holder is referred to as a "block holder"
Or why the AIL is the "bid sheet". I guess it is just a carryover from being stuck in the dark ages.

I am a Junior Line Holder.

I have Four-- 4 day trips . No less than 3 days off between trips. I bid for no more than 2 legs a day. Credit 84 Hours.

And the important thing is I have a LINE. We don't carry all the RV's like the east side.

PBS is better than the East Line Bidding System. The "bid sheet" is probably more flexible than our DPU system. It is too bad that some are stuck in the dark ages. A mixture of whats best from each side with improvements could yield a quality bidding system.

 

[charlie2]

It's not a just a market, it's a hub

Like PIT!

 

[charlie2]

This was part of the NAC update posted today.

During the last day of negotiations, the US Airways Pilot, C M gave a presentation outlining the Company's reasons that a Preferential Bidding System (PBS) is better for both the Company and the pilots. The Company remains focused on the continuation of some type of PBS similar to that in use by the West pilots. While the Company wanted to make this presentation to the Mediator in an attempt to show how much better PBS is, we don't believe it accomplished that. The presentation contained no new information, other than the Company finally acknowledging the minor detail that PBS is more efficient than the current East pilot built lines which, in case you didn't know, equates to LESS PILOT JOBS. Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, How did you like the play. While it has taken years, the Company has finally acknowledged what we have always known, PBS=less flexibility=increased efficiency = less pilot jobs. When pressed how many pilots jobs would be eliminated as a result of PBS they wouldn't / couldn't answer. We have heard that the efficiencies gained from moving from line building to PBS is in the 10% range. Based on the most recent bid, that's almost 300 less positions ranging from A330 Captains, all the way down to E190 F/O's. If you think it's a bottom of the list problem, think again. This backward movement affects every position. I for one am tired of giving the Company the tools it needs to shrink - how has that concept worked for you during the past several years?
The bottom line, and ultimate question you have to ask yourself, is do you want a less flexible scheduling system that eliminates jobs?

I have to say NO to giving the company a reason to furlough. Why don't they guarantee no furloughs? Because they want to furlough with PBS, with no min utilization and worse scope protections. We have to can the KP and start from scratch.

 

[get2flyin]

How 'bout putting up schedules of low end block holders...capt and f/o? No vacation...

OK, Chief..Here you go. Reserve in July (*not by choice) and a line in August so I'm skimming the bottom of the line holders. I'm too junior to get vacation in the summer time but I don't bother bidding it because I don't have school age kids. Also, I don't bother bidding weekends off because I don't need them off. I have family in town in August so I bid a block of days off and I find going through customs to be irritating, so I bid to stay out of Canada and Mexico. I don't really care where I overnight so I don't bid particular cities or pairings. Finally, fighting rush hour can increase my drive time by 15 minutes so I request to start after 10am and finish before 4pm.

Here's what I put into the PBS "Voo-doo" system, it takes me about 3 minutes each month.
(These are all the parameters I bid. I could do a bunch more, but as I stated previously, there isn't much I really needed)

Type of Line Desired: Desire Regular Line

No Fly List: 101XXX *(Not a terrible guy, just flies like he's "On Board". F-that. I NEVER have to fly with him)

Other options:
Accept a 24 hr period instead of 1 calendar day: NO
Request training if eligible: NO
Accept same day report after a late release: NO
Accept to sell days off: NO
Request long call reserve line: YES
Selected GDs:

500 pts Desire Period Off Su 14 AUG -Th 18 AUG
*(Did OK with this request, finish 14th at 9:20am, Start 18th at 7:30am)
100 pts Avoid Check-In Before 1000 *(3 of 4 start before 10, juniority sucks)
100 pts Avoid Release After 1600 *(All trips release by 12:50)
100 pts Avoid Pairings going in Canada Region *(No flight to Canada assigned)
100 pts Avoid Pairings going in Mexico Region *(No flight to Mexico assigned)


And here is what I got.

M 1 LP (Long Call Carry-in)
T 2
W 3
T 4 1115 (SI) PHX 0488(DEN)-0306(CLT) -0058 (MSP) 1950 Layover
F 5 0056(PHX)-0233(DTW) 2803 Layover
S 6
S 7 0281(PHX) 1250 Release 1843 Block 2100 Credit
M 8
T 9
W 10
T 11 620 (SI) PHX 0263(SMF)-0230(PHX) -0230(DTW) 1117 Layover
F 12 0583(PHX)-0647(ONT) 1751 Layover
S 13 0057(PHX)-0057(MSP) 1643 Layover
S 14 0027(PHX) 920am Release 2106 Block 2106
M 15
T 16
W 17
T 18 730 (SI) PHX 0302(CLT) 1458 Layover
F 19 0537(SEA) 2144 Layover
S 20 0078(PHL) 1406 Layover
S 21 0090(ORD)-0090(PHX) 1250 Release 2045 Block 2100 Credit
M 22
T 23
W 24
T 25
F 26 859 (SI) PHX 0600(LAS)-0395(DFW) 1329 Layover
S 27 0541(LAS)-0393(DFW) 1817 Layover
S 28 0374(CLT)-0374(JFK) 1754 Layover
M 29 0075(PHX) 1224 Release 1852 Block 2100 Credit
T 30
W 31

TAFB : 301.20 Excess Credit: 0.00 Total Calendar Days Off : 14
Total Block : 7926 Credit Range : [7800-9200] Total Credit : 8823

I have to say NO to giving the company a reason to furlough. Why don't they guarantee no furloughs? Because they want to furlough with PBS, with no min utilization and worse scope protections. We have to can the KP and start from scratch.

I'm going to get 4 trips that are 4 days long if we use line bidding or PBS. At least with PBS I don't get 4 trips I hate. How am I causing guys to get furloughed?

 

[charlie2]

Thanks for posting that. It may be a great tool for you west guys but for us it would be too painful to implement...meaning furloughs.

 

[get2flyin]

Thanks for posting that. It may be a great tool for you west guys but for us it would be too painful to implement...meaning furloughs.

See the comment I added to the bottom of the bid results after you posted this.

 

[charlie2]

It is more efficient than other line building tools which equates to needing less pilots. But since (unfortunately) we are going to be in litigation for a year or two (the companies suit) and in negotiations for a year or two maybe when we start retiring in large amounts maybe PBS won't be a furlough generator. Maybe it would just slow our hiring a bit. Remember USAPA MUST do everything it can to preserve jobs.

 

[get2flyin]

It is more efficient than other line building tools which equates to needing less pilots. But since (unfortunately) we are going to be in litigation for a year or two (the companies suit) and in negotiations for a year or two maybe when we start retiring in large amounts maybe PBS won't be a furlough generator. Maybe it would just slow our hiring a bit. Remember USAPA MUST do everything it can to preserve jobs.

Let's stop blaming the company for the delays. We are going to be in long term litigation because USAPA knows it can't amend the NIC without getting whacked so they are stalling. Also, based on your efficiency logic, the company should be pissing money away hiring more pilots and paying us all less. I'm no company man, but it's pretty damn hard for them to be competitive with the other legacies if we are striving to be inefficient.

 

[charlie2]

Let's stop blaming the company for the delays. We are going to be in long term litigation because USAPA knows it can't amend the NIC without getting whacked so they are stalling. Also, based on your efficiency logic, the company should be pissing money away hiring more pilots and paying us all less. I'm no company man, but it's pretty damn hard for them to be competitive with the other legacies if we are striving to be inefficient.

I disagree with the USAPA "knows" part. The company would never pass any savings to us and you know it. Single engine taxi and look for you bonus.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Charlie how many active line pilots do you have on the east and what is the current fleet count?

 

[get2flyin]

I disagree with the USAPA "knows" part. The company would never pass any savings to us and you know it. Single engine taxi and look for you bonus.

Ask your East FO peers if they want to operate separately or combine lists. We both know the majority over there are perfectly happy to operate separately, even insisting it would be "unsafe" to do otherwise. If they are so sure they will get the DOH staple, why isn't everyone chomping to merge the groups? Because it isn't going to happen with DOH.

Also, the company might not pass fuel savings on to us, but rest assured they won't bat an eye at taking things away if they start losing money. Three engine taxi and keep thinking the company is going to blink at the negotiating table.

I'm sorry if I come across as combative. It isn't my nature or my intent, but I'm getting tired of the endless gamesmanship that appears to be USAPA operating mode. As long as they keep pushing the "we're going to take what ever we think is ours from whoever we please (ME)", then I'll continue to think they can pretty much piss off.

 

[cactusboy53]

How 'bout putting up schedules of low end block holders...capt and f/o? No vacation...

Crz;
THANK YOU for the ask. It tells me that there are some guys out there that wish to be informed. My plate is a little full, but I will solicit the information you requested. Give me a couple days and I will put it up here.

CB

 

[Crzipilot]

Not a problem, was just curious. the line that was posted, seems about the same as what we get with our lines, maybe a little worse actually.....