USAPA's Illegal Job Action Causing Pilot Terminations.

[Bad-Andy]

Yep that means some of the East guys (including myself) will be pulling gear for a PHX commuter and it also means that some of you West guys will have to watch the A330's taxi by with out you in it.

What the heck drugs are you on? (And why aren't you sharing them with your friends???) There is only one way out of this fight -- and that starts in December 2012.... The West has no one to negotiate for them. Even their reps get removed from meetings. The smartest guy we had on the negotiating committee has taken a break. (Regardless of anyone's opinions of his politics, he was the one guy I trusted in that whole mess...) We still don't have a response to the LOA 93 grievance. And, as a bunch of guys already said, we already have the solution (it came in the form of binding arbitration) -- we either live with it or we don't. There cannot be a middle ground. If we sit down and negotiate a middle ground, that sets the precedent for no binding arbitration to stand again. What happens when (if) we win LOA 93? The company will say "Sorry, that was an agreement with a previous bargaining agent that no longer exists." Then they just won't pay. And it will take years in court to settle the issue. That is a can of worms that we don't dare open.

So, while I share your sentiments about wishing we could sit down and work this out and get a contract with decent work rules and a livable wage (working doubles and triples in the sim on every day off is getting old quick...), I have to disagree with your suggested process. Some things mustn't be compromised.

As for the integrity issue, most of the guys here (on both sides) are decent people, and are men of their word. A select few are obviously not... But, to the guy that says to "study human behavior" I would agree. But study it accurately, not in some fantasy world. If you want to understand what is really happening here, Robert Brault summed it up best in his quote, "You do not wake up one morning a bad person. It happens by a thousand tiny surrenders of self-respect to self-interest."

 

[MCDU]

What the heck drugs are you on? (And why aren't you sharing them with your friends???) There is only one way out of this fight -- and that starts in December 2012.... The West has no one to negotiate for them. Even their reps get removed from meetings. The smartest guy we had on the negotiating committee has taken a break. (Regardless of anyone's opinions of his politics, he was the one guy I trusted in that whole mess...) We still don't have a response to the LOA 93 grievance. And, as a bunch of guys already said, we already have the solution (it came in the form of binding arbitration) -- we either live with it or we don't. There cannot be a middle ground. If we sit down and negotiate a middle ground, that sets the precedent for no binding arbitration to stand again. What happens when (if) we win LOA 93? The company will say "Sorry, that was an agreement with a previous bargaining agent that no longer exists." Then they just won't pay. And it will take years in court to settle the issue. That is a can of worms that we don't dare open.

So, while I share your sentiments about wishing we could sit down and work this out and get a contract with decent work rules and a livable wage (working doubles and triples in the sim on every day off is getting old quick...), I have to disagree with your suggested process. Some things mustn't be compromised.

As for the integrity issue, most of the guys here (on both sides) are decent people, and are men of their word. A select few are obviously not... But, to the guy that says to "study human behavior" I would agree. But study it accurately, not in some fantasy world. If you want to understand what is really happening here, Robert Brault summed it up best in his quote, "You do not wake up one morning a bad person. It happens by a thousand tiny surrenders of self-respect to self-interest."

You do know the difference between an internal union arbitration and arbitration that has the law behind it. If the Nic is binding it would have been implemented by the courts long time ago.

Nice try Bad-Andy R

 

[Bad-Andy]

You do know the difference between an internal union arbitration and arbitration that has the law behind it. If the Nic is binding it would have been implemented by the courts long time ago.

Nice try Bad-Andy R

Yes, I am very well aware of the difference between the two. However, I am also well aware of the similarities between the two. Take a look at the definitions page on the NMB's website. (Here's a link in case Google isn't your friend: http://www.nmb.gov/helpdesk/helpdesk_definitions.html). Specifically, look at the second and third definitions (arbitration and binding arbitration). I don't see a differentiation between an internal union arbitration and an external arbitration. Can you point me to a specific place that shows a difference? (Other than an opinion by our esteemed lawyers). Mainly because there isn't a difference...

As for using my initials, big deal. I could care less if you know who I am. I don't write anything I'm not willing to say in public. Here, I'll even sign with my real name, because I don't need to cower behind a computer keyboard... So, MCDU, what's your real name? See you on the line.

Andy Reitz

 

[xanderman]

You do know the difference between an internal union arbitration and arbitration that has the law behind it. If the Nic is binding it would have been implemented by the courts long time ago.

Nice try Bad-Andy R

The same argument could be made for your point as well! If it were simply an internal process then you would've had your DOH a long time ago.

This arbitration does have the force of law behind it! It's in the form of the Transition Agreement. That is a legal and binding addendum to our respective contracts. RLA law sits firmly behind that. And guess what? The TA says that we follow the process that we did. Get over your fears! The Nic WILL NOT do what you think it will. We have to get this behind us or we all continue to work for crap wages and work rules...

 

[Carl S.]

MCDU believes all that comes out of USAPA World Wide HQ in CLT. Some of these urban legends are internal union process, project zanzabar,SLI are like crew meals,all East attrition is captain seats, not fair and equitible, gold standard and so on. LOA 93 is your reality till the DJ is finished, your arbitration on LOA 93 is a internal union process that the company will never honor if you get any benefit from the award. The SLI is done, reality is all that needs to been grasped by the East, what stage of the grieving process are you still in, self pity? Mark

P.S.- If you hide be hind a fake screen name you are a coward!

 

[charlie2]

MCDU believes all that comes out of USAPA World Wide HQ in CLT. Some of these urban legends are internal union process, project zanzabar,SLI are like crew meals,all East attrition is captain seats, not fair and equitible, gold standard and so on. LOA 93 is your reality till the DJ is finished, your arbitration on LOA 93 is a internal union process that the company will never honor if you get any benefit from the award. The SLI is done, reality is all that needs to been grasped by the East, what stage of the grieving process are you still in, self pity? Mark

P.S.- If you hide be hind a fake screen name you are a coward!

Carl S. you are hiding behind a screen name...Mark who?

 

[Carl S.]

charlie2, if you have a list, I am pretty easy to figure out, I am the only 1998 hire named Mark.. Should I put my SSN and cell number also for the slow folks.

Mark P.S.- Let me guess, your a A330 captain and the Nic. does not affect you like everyone else who posts here.

 

[charlie2]

Mark P.S.- Let me guess, your a A330 captain and the Nic. does not affect you like everyone else who posts here.[/QUOTE]

I wish! The nic would really screw me if they downsize PHX which is what most of us eastinfections think will happen. We really do think that LAS and PHX aren't very profitable and our Tempe heros will close down PHX like they did LAS. I know you don't want to hear this but what USAPA did for us is delay the nic by many years so if/when you guys prevail in court (in many years) the retirements will offer a little lube to the screwing. You can ride my jumpseat anytime. If you search my posts you will see that I am never vulgar nor do I call others stupid names and try politely to express my opinion and what I think my other easties feel so I am not hiding behind my anonymous screen name. Have a peaceful Sunday afternoon.

 

[charlie2]

Yes, I am very well aware of the difference between the two. However, I am also well aware of the similarities between the two. Take a look at the definitions page on the NMB's website. (Here's a link in case Google isn't your friend: http://www.nmb.gov/helpdesk/helpdesk_definitions.html). Specifically, look at the second and third definitions (arbitration and binding arbitration). I don't see a differentiation between an internal union arbitration and an external arbitration. Can you point me to a specific place that shows a difference? (Other than an opinion by our esteemed lawyers). Mainly because there isn't a difference...

As for using my initials, big deal. I could care less if you know who I am. I don't write anything I'm not willing to say in public. Here, I'll even sign with my real name, because I don't need to cower behind a computer keyboard... So, MCDU, what's your real name? See you on the line.

Andy Reitz

I will still call you Bad Andy. Are you in grad school? What are you studying?

 

[Bad-Andy]

I will still call you Bad Andy. Are you in grad school? What are you studying?

Yes, still in grad school, 5 agonizing years later... Just finished my Masters in Divinity and down to two semesters left for my MBA. And, I've been called a lot worse than that...

 

[Bringupthebird]

I wish! The nic would really screw me if they downsize PHX which is what most of us eastinfections think will happen. We really do think that LAS and PHX aren't very profitable and our Tempe heros will close down PHX like they did LAS.

Do most of you know how long LAS was a crew base? How long has PHX been a crew base? How does the east feel that US could be successful as an east-only airline when it couldn't in the past when it was easier to make money in the airline business.

C'mon let's look at things rationally for a change.

 

[weasel_lips]

PHX could very well become just a "focus city". It is the least profitable out of CLT,PHL,DCA, PHX. Mostly a leasure maret.....

 

[WickedPissa]

Ten Eastholes to be fired for listening to USAPA. I love it.

Regardless if they are "east", everyone taking an anti -east stand on the post and all other anti -east are pro-management. That is why the whole industry is the way it is. Why would anyone bash a pilot group over management? Go ahead and kiss ass to the man. Losers.

 

[WickedPissa]

Basically, west guys sitting back and letting the east men stand up and get a contract. Or are you happy with your paycheck? Pathetic. Do it right. Negotiate a payscale/contract, then bitch and moan about seniority. Management could care less. They won. Too late. Now make it work.

 

[WickedPissa]

Anyone that argues is a company man. Enough said. I am done.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Regardless if they are "east", everyone taking an anti -east stand on the post and all other anti -east are pro-management. That is why the whole industry is the way it is. Why would anyone bash a pilot group over management? Go ahead and kiss ass to the man. Losers.

Lets take a quick poll. Does anyone on this board think that being anti-USAPA means you are pro management? Seriously? What about being anti-USAPA for all of the chaos they have created over a lost arbitration?

 

[get2flyin]

Basically, west guys sitting back and letting the east men stand up and get a contract. Or are you happy with your paycheck? Pathetic. Do it right. Negotiate a payscale/contract, then bitch and moan about seniority. Management could care less. They won. Too late. Now make it work.

Wrong.

Regardless if they are "east", everyone taking an anti -east stand on the post and all other anti -east are pro-management. That is why the whole industry is the way it is. Why would anyone bash a pilot group over management? Go ahead and kiss ass to the man. Losers.

Also wrong.

Anyone that argues is a company man. Enough said. I am done.

You should totally throw a tantrum and hold your breath until you pass out. That would get the adults attention.

 

[Turtle21]

Lets take a quick poll. Does anyone on this board think that being anti-USAPA means you are pro management? Seriously? What about being anti-USAPA for all of the chaos they have created over a lost arbitration?

let's take a vote (on this message board) to see if we should be in favor of ignoring the vote of the pilots that already voted on an internal union matter.

 

[cactusboy53]

Mark P.S.- Let me guess, your a A330 captain and the Nic. does not affect you like everyone else who posts here.
I wish! The nic would really screw me if they downsize PHX which is what most of us eastinfections think will happen. We really do think that LAS and PHX aren't very profitable and our Tempe heros will close down PHX like they did LAS. I know you don't want to hear this but what USAPA did for us is delay the nic by many years so if/when you guys prevail in court (in many years) the retirements will offer a little lube to the screwing. You can ride my jumpseat anytime. If you search my posts you will see that I am never vulgar nor do I call others stupid names and try politely to express my opinion and what I think my other easties feel so I am not hiding behind my anonymous screen name. Have a peaceful Sunday afternoon.

So you aren't supporting DOH because it's the golden rule, but because you MBA-types believe that the little western town of 5+ Million (where the company headquarters are located) is going to close down the PHX base operations (and give away another city to SWAL)??

I really wish you would put a little more thought into your estimations.

Here is something to chew on. The Kirby Proposal is still on the table according to Parker. That is a wage increase for an East captain from $125 to $146 IMMEDIATELY, AND increases in 401K contributions, vactation time, time off, DH pay, Mechanical pay, etc.

No I AM NOT SAYING that I would vote for the KP. What I am saying is if you accept the KP with the Nicolau award as FACT (and you staff the NAC with someone who actually knows how to negotiate)....we could possibly achieve NB captain rates of $151 to $174 and WB captain rates of $190 to $217. Heck, JetBlue is presently paying $159 for Airbus and $143 for Embraer!!

Lurkers: If you know/believe that the Nicolau award will ultimately be the seniority list, then all you buying with your dues is DELAY. You are losing countless money and time off that you will never recover. Please visit us at www.reformusapa.com

There are three petitions that you need to read. If you agree with any or all of these petitions, please print them out and send them in to reformusapa ASAP.

Oh, BTW: Our NAC is presently negotiating AWAY (in the WRONG direction) from the KP!! How is that making things better??

Regards.

 

[charlie2]

One big problem with the KP is a lack of aircraft utilization rates. We currently have min rates in our contract and the company violated our contract to go below the minimum while we had pilots on furlough! If they would do it then I'm guessing they would really take advantage of it if it weren't even in the contract meaning furloughing pilots. Like you said Cactusboy, there are many other parts of it that need to to be negotiated so will the end result still be called the "Kirby Proposal" if every section is differant? It is so bad we have to start from scratch.