USAPA's Illegal Job Action Causing Pilot Terminations.

[Guppiedriver]

+1, Both sides need to stop trying to piss in each others Wheaties put the past behind them and sit down and figure something out. The East needs to accept that when you merged the West gets SOME of the good stuff and the West needs to accept that they only get SOME of the good stuff. Not ALL of the good stuff.Yeah I know the term "Good Stuff " is relative with regards to US Air but like it or not it's both of yours airline. Both sides need to find some less rabid dog style leadership and lock them in a room with a pen, paper and a bottle of Jack. They can come out when they have an agreement that has both sides equally pissed off. Think Nic plus fences. Yep that means some of the East guys (including myself) will be pulling gear for a PHX commuter and it also means that some of you West guys will have to watch the A330's taxi by with out you in it. Put the list together and take away one of Team Tempe's best weapons. A divided pilot group. If you keep the status quo we all can look forward to still trying for a contract during the next downturn and both sides lawyers will have new mansions out by Doug.

There is no "west" to negotiate with.

 

[TWA Dude]

Think of human behavior when you examine East vs West.

Here's a better explanation from Wikipedia:
In psychology and logic, rationalization (or making excuses) is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are explained in a rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation. It often involves ad hoc hypothesizing. This process ranges from fully conscious (e.g. to present an external defense against ridicule from others) to mostly subconscious (e.g. to create a block against internal feelings of guilt).

West would have done what East did if they were in East's shoes and visa-versa.

Considering what the East did has never been done before that's an unsustainable assumption.

Both sides need to stop trying to piss in each others Wheaties put the past behind them and sit down and figure something out.

As Guppiedriver pointed out there is no West to negotiate with. Both sides are represented by USAPA and two of the PHX reps and one DDR get kicked out of BPR meetings. This conflict originates with USAPA and that's where it must end. What you're asking for isn't to figure something out but for the West to give concessions to the East. In exchange for what?

I know Easties hate our lack of originality but I have to say it yet again: binding arbitration is called binding for a reason. It's supposed to be binding even when one side really hates it. People with integrity abide by their commitments even when they think it's to their detriment.
There's your solution. Call your reps.

 

[cactusboy53]

+1, Both sides need to stop trying to piss in each others Wheaties put the past behind them and sit down and figure something out. The East needs to accept that when you merged the West gets SOME of the good stuff and the West needs to accept that they only get SOME of the good stuff. Not ALL of the good stuff.Yeah I know the term "Good Stuff " is relative with regards to US Air but like it or not it's both of yours airline. Both sides need to find some less rabid dog style leadership and lock them in a room with a pen, paper and a bottle of Jack. They can come out when they have an agreement that has both sides equally pissed off. Think Nic plus fences. Yep that means some of the East guys (including myself) will be pulling gear for a PHX commuter and it also means that some of you West guys will have to watch the A330's taxi by with out you in it. Put the list together and take away one of Team Tempe's best weapons. A divided pilot group. If you keep the status quo we all can look forward to still trying for a contract during the next downturn and both sides lawyers will have new mansions out by Doug.

There is a small problem with that: There technically is only ONE pilot group. We are represented by ONE union (technically, mind you).

All three parties signed a transition agreement. One of the many tenets to that agreement is that the pilots would be going through the merger process as defined by ALPA merger policy. We did just exactly that.

I personally think that it was unfair to place a permanent 517 body fence in front of the number one AWA pilot. That said, we (both parties) agreed to abide by the process. As a result of the delivered seniority list, the east pilots hijacked the CBA and voted in USAPA. That triggered the "one pilot group" situation.

Hence, there is NO person, NO committee, NO ad hoc committee, NO group or entity that has the legal right (or inclination) to attempt to negotiate AWAY from the Nicolau Award with the help of USAPA (and that even means agreeing to DOH w/ "restrictions").

Because of USAPA's actions (suing 24 of our pilots for RICO crimes, trying to fire West pilots for non-payment of dues - ALPA never did that did they, Staffing all important committees with east pilots only, and trying to deliver a date of hire seniority list to the company), we must now have the courts finish this. The West pilots have been forced to defend our position, and we are most simply along for "the ride".

To put this in the most simplest terms: it comes down to keeping one's word. Even if there were someone that could negotiate away from the Nicolau seniority list, how or why would we now take the other party's word?

One last note: If the east and west had accepted the list as fact, and stood together on a new contract in May of 2007 (when the east walked away from the JNC), we would have been able to negotiate AT LEAST current Delta current rates. Now we wait for the court to conclude this exercise and EVERYONE has lost at least 4 years of better wages, time off and working conditions. What a shame.

 

[Carl S.]

How about we pick a neutral third party familiar with the industry to figure it out? Oh wait, we did that already. What if the Easties do no like this new ruling, will they take their ball and go home again. You will be yanking gear for a Westie one day if you wish to move off LOA 93 and you remain an F/O and I will yank gear for a Eastie if I continue to bypass, that is reality.

 

[tailwindz]

Binding is BINDING.

Well, unless your a USAPA Eastie.

 

[Bad-Andy]

Yep that means some of the East guys (including myself) will be pulling gear for a PHX commuter and it also means that some of you West guys will have to watch the A330's taxi by with out you in it.

What the heck drugs are you on? (And why aren't you sharing them with your friends???) There is only one way out of this fight -- and that starts in December 2012.... The West has no one to negotiate for them. Even their reps get removed from meetings. The smartest guy we had on the negotiating committee has taken a break. (Regardless of anyone's opinions of his politics, he was the one guy I trusted in that whole mess...) We still don't have a response to the LOA 93 grievance. And, as a bunch of guys already said, we already have the solution (it came in the form of binding arbitration) -- we either live with it or we don't. There cannot be a middle ground. If we sit down and negotiate a middle ground, that sets the precedent for no binding arbitration to stand again. What happens when (if) we win LOA 93? The company will say "Sorry, that was an agreement with a previous bargaining agent that no longer exists." Then they just won't pay. And it will take years in court to settle the issue. That is a can of worms that we don't dare open.

So, while I share your sentiments about wishing we could sit down and work this out and get a contract with decent work rules and a livable wage (working doubles and triples in the sim on every day off is getting old quick...), I have to disagree with your suggested process. Some things mustn't be compromised.

As for the integrity issue, most of the guys here (on both sides) are decent people, and are men of their word. A select few are obviously not... But, to the guy that says to "study human behavior" I would agree. But study it accurately, not in some fantasy world. If you want to understand what is really happening here, Robert Brault summed it up best in his quote, "You do not wake up one morning a bad person. It happens by a thousand tiny surrenders of self-respect to self-interest."

 

[MCDU]

What the heck drugs are you on? (And why aren't you sharing them with your friends???) There is only one way out of this fight -- and that starts in December 2012.... The West has no one to negotiate for them. Even their reps get removed from meetings. The smartest guy we had on the negotiating committee has taken a break. (Regardless of anyone's opinions of his politics, he was the one guy I trusted in that whole mess...) We still don't have a response to the LOA 93 grievance. And, as a bunch of guys already said, we already have the solution (it came in the form of binding arbitration) -- we either live with it or we don't. There cannot be a middle ground. If we sit down and negotiate a middle ground, that sets the precedent for no binding arbitration to stand again. What happens when (if) we win LOA 93? The company will say "Sorry, that was an agreement with a previous bargaining agent that no longer exists." Then they just won't pay. And it will take years in court to settle the issue. That is a can of worms that we don't dare open.

So, while I share your sentiments about wishing we could sit down and work this out and get a contract with decent work rules and a livable wage (working doubles and triples in the sim on every day off is getting old quick...), I have to disagree with your suggested process. Some things mustn't be compromised.

As for the integrity issue, most of the guys here (on both sides) are decent people, and are men of their word. A select few are obviously not... But, to the guy that says to "study human behavior" I would agree. But study it accurately, not in some fantasy world. If you want to understand what is really happening here, Robert Brault summed it up best in his quote, "You do not wake up one morning a bad person. It happens by a thousand tiny surrenders of self-respect to self-interest."

You do know the difference between an internal union arbitration and arbitration that has the law behind it. If the Nic is binding it would have been implemented by the courts long time ago.

Nice try Bad-Andy R

 

[Bad-Andy]

You do know the difference between an internal union arbitration and arbitration that has the law behind it. If the Nic is binding it would have been implemented by the courts long time ago.

Nice try Bad-Andy R

Yes, I am very well aware of the difference between the two. However, I am also well aware of the similarities between the two. Take a look at the definitions page on the NMB's website. (Here's a link in case Google isn't your friend: http://www.nmb.gov/helpdesk/helpdesk_definitions.html). Specifically, look at the second and third definitions (arbitration and binding arbitration). I don't see a differentiation between an internal union arbitration and an external arbitration. Can you point me to a specific place that shows a difference? (Other than an opinion by our esteemed lawyers). Mainly because there isn't a difference...

As for using my initials, big deal. I could care less if you know who I am. I don't write anything I'm not willing to say in public. Here, I'll even sign with my real name, because I don't need to cower behind a computer keyboard... So, MCDU, what's your real name? See you on the line.

Andy Reitz

 

[xanderman]

You do know the difference between an internal union arbitration and arbitration that has the law behind it. If the Nic is binding it would have been implemented by the courts long time ago.

Nice try Bad-Andy R

The same argument could be made for your point as well! If it were simply an internal process then you would've had your DOH a long time ago.

This arbitration does have the force of law behind it! It's in the form of the Transition Agreement. That is a legal and binding addendum to our respective contracts. RLA law sits firmly behind that. And guess what? The TA says that we follow the process that we did. Get over your fears! The Nic WILL NOT do what you think it will. We have to get this behind us or we all continue to work for crap wages and work rules...

 

[Carl S.]

MCDU believes all that comes out of USAPA World Wide HQ in CLT. Some of these urban legends are internal union process, project zanzabar,SLI are like crew meals,all East attrition is captain seats, not fair and equitible, gold standard and so on. LOA 93 is your reality till the DJ is finished, your arbitration on LOA 93 is a internal union process that the company will never honor if you get any benefit from the award. The SLI is done, reality is all that needs to been grasped by the East, what stage of the grieving process are you still in, self pity? Mark

P.S.- If you hide be hind a fake screen name you are a coward!

 

[charlie2]

MCDU believes all that comes out of USAPA World Wide HQ in CLT. Some of these urban legends are internal union process, project zanzabar,SLI are like crew meals,all East attrition is captain seats, not fair and equitible, gold standard and so on. LOA 93 is your reality till the DJ is finished, your arbitration on LOA 93 is a internal union process that the company will never honor if you get any benefit from the award. The SLI is done, reality is all that needs to been grasped by the East, what stage of the grieving process are you still in, self pity? Mark

P.S.- If you hide be hind a fake screen name you are a coward!

Carl S. you are hiding behind a screen name...Mark who?

 

[Carl S.]

charlie2, if you have a list, I am pretty easy to figure out, I am the only 1998 hire named Mark.. Should I put my SSN and cell number also for the slow folks.

Mark P.S.- Let me guess, your a A330 captain and the Nic. does not affect you like everyone else who posts here.

 

[charlie2]

Mark P.S.- Let me guess, your a A330 captain and the Nic. does not affect you like everyone else who posts here.[/QUOTE]

I wish! The nic would really screw me if they downsize PHX which is what most of us eastinfections think will happen. We really do think that LAS and PHX aren't very profitable and our Tempe heros will close down PHX like they did LAS. I know you don't want to hear this but what USAPA did for us is delay the nic by many years so if/when you guys prevail in court (in many years) the retirements will offer a little lube to the screwing. You can ride my jumpseat anytime. If you search my posts you will see that I am never vulgar nor do I call others stupid names and try politely to express my opinion and what I think my other easties feel so I am not hiding behind my anonymous screen name. Have a peaceful Sunday afternoon.

 

[charlie2]

Yes, I am very well aware of the difference between the two. However, I am also well aware of the similarities between the two. Take a look at the definitions page on the NMB's website. (Here's a link in case Google isn't your friend: http://www.nmb.gov/helpdesk/helpdesk_definitions.html). Specifically, look at the second and third definitions (arbitration and binding arbitration). I don't see a differentiation between an internal union arbitration and an external arbitration. Can you point me to a specific place that shows a difference? (Other than an opinion by our esteemed lawyers). Mainly because there isn't a difference...

As for using my initials, big deal. I could care less if you know who I am. I don't write anything I'm not willing to say in public. Here, I'll even sign with my real name, because I don't need to cower behind a computer keyboard... So, MCDU, what's your real name? See you on the line.

Andy Reitz

I will still call you Bad Andy. Are you in grad school? What are you studying?

 

[Bad-Andy]

I will still call you Bad Andy. Are you in grad school? What are you studying?

Yes, still in grad school, 5 agonizing years later... Just finished my Masters in Divinity and down to two semesters left for my MBA. And, I've been called a lot worse than that...