NetJets Recalls

[Hogprint]

Excellent post brokeflyer and fischman!!!! May be, NOW he'll get it...... 34 years!!! OH NO!!!!!!

Thirty-four years...what's the old saying...can't teach an old dog new tricks...

Here is some outhouse reading for all the hero's who think flying "a little tired" is OK...NASA produced these studies BTW.

 

[realityman]

Didn't fly because I was sick a couple times, just haven't been fatigued enough to cancel. No commentary on those who legitimately fatigue, it just seems strange to fatigue so much when we are protected by the rules. I don't quite understand the rabid posts, however.

How about this: Just this past tour, we had 4 really easy days in the beginning of the tour. All day shift. On day 5, we do two short hops in late afternoon. Then get told we are needed for a recovery that had us flying all night and landing at 6AM on the east coast. We were pretty fresh and took the trip. No problem there. So we check in to the hotel at 6AM. Of course, by the time we get to the hotel we're very tired. They have us coming back on duty at 6PM that same day and doing a short hop at 11PM that night. Guess what happens around 8AM at the hotel? People are moving around. Doors slamming. People shouting to each other in the hallways. Maids running vacuums in the adjacent rooms. The sun is up and the curtains aren't keeping out all the light. Not to mention that even though we're tired, we're working against our bodies own circadian rhythms. How much sleep do you think we got? I talked to my partner when we came back on duty and he, like me, only got about 5 hours of actual sleep.

We felt rested enough to do the one quick hop they had us scheduled for that night, but do you really think we would have been out of line if they had dropped a transcon on us and we had fatigued? Because we talked it over and decided ahead of time that we weren't rested enough to do any long duty period that night.

While certain factors (maids running vacuums in adjacent rooms and loud folks in the hallways) are out of the company's control, they still affect us, the pilots who deal with those factors, on a daily basis.
But how do the rules protect us from the repeated big circadian shifts the company throws at us all the time? Sorry, but there are numerous gaping holes in the rules that allow the company to schedule us until we fall back on the fatigue rule. And when pilots become reluctant to use the fatigue rule because they want to help out the company/owners, then the rules aren't providing much protection at all, now are they?

And even the rules we do have aren't necessarily all that safety-oriented. 14 hours of duty in a 24-hour period? Hey, I think it's great we can't be forced past that, but if you think about it, that's still a very long day! The average American only works 8 hours a day, but we can go 75% longer than that in a safety sensitive job like flying, and that's safe?! The fact that we operate like that on a daily basis with very few incidents is a great testament to our professionalism and skill, but doesn't constitute proof that "the rules" we operate under protect us and are safety-focused.

 

[G4dude]

"A little tired" is fatigued. I think what the guys here are saying is that when you are "a little tired" you aren't doing anyone any favors by getting in the cockpit. Make the call, get rested. That is what the company and the union WANT you to do.

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. A little tired is not unsafe, just uncomfortable, it seems to me, with all due respect. And I couldn't care LESS what the Union wants me to do.

 

[G4dude]

How about this: Just this past tour, we had 4 really easy days in the beginning of the tour. All day shift. On day 5, we do two short hops in late afternoon. Then get told we are needed for a recovery that had us flying all night and landing at 6AM on the east coast. We were pretty fresh and took the trip. No problem there. So we check in to the hotel at 6AM. Of course, by the time we get to the hotel we're very tired. They have us coming back on duty at 6PM that same day and doing a short hop at 11PM that night. Guess what happens around 8AM at the hotel? People are moving around. Doors slamming. People shouting to each other in the hallways. Maids running vacuums in the adjacent rooms. The sun is up and the curtains aren't keeping out all the light. Not to mention that even though we're tired, we're working against our bodies own circadian rhythms. How much sleep do you think we got? I talked to my partner when we came back on duty and he, like me, only got about 5 hours of actual sleep.

We felt rested enough to do the one quick hop they had us scheduled for that night, but do you really think we would have been out of line if they had dropped a transcon on us and we had fatigued? Because we talked it over and decided ahead of time that we weren't rested enough to do any long duty period that night.

While certain factors (maids running vacuums in adjacent rooms and loud folks in the hallways) are out of the company's control, they still affect us, the pilots who deal with those factors, on a daily basis.
But how do the rules protect us from the repeated big circadian shifts the company throws at us all the time? Sorry, but there are numerous gaping holes in the rules that allow the company to schedule us until we fall back on the fatigue rule. And when pilots become reluctant to use the fatigue rule because they want to help out the company/owners, then the rules aren't providing much protection at all, now are they?

And even the rules we do have aren't necessarily all that safety-oriented. 14 hours of duty in a 24-hour period? Hey, I think it's great we can't be forced past that, but if you think about it, that's still a very long day! The average American only works 8 hours a day, but we can go 75% longer than that in a safety sensitive job like flying, and that's safe?! The fact that we operate like that on a daily basis with very few incidents is a great testament to our professionalism and skill, but doesn't constitute proof that "the rules" we operate under protect us and are safety-focused.

Good post, but i don't see where 5 hours of sleep is unsafe. Coffee helps. If the 5 hours sleep happens 2 or 3 nights consecutively, that would be fatiguing, however. No argument there.

 

[G4dude]

Thirty-four years...what's the old saying...can't teach an old dog new tricks...

Here is some outhouse reading for all the hero's who think flying "a little tired" is OK...NASA produced these studies BTW.

Not being a "hero," just disagree on what constitutes Fatigue.

 

[hopalong]

Not being a "hero," just disagree on what constitutes Fatigue.

"You must be really proud" and I quote.......

 

[OPECJet]

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. A little tired is not unsafe, just uncomfortable, it seems to me, with all due respect. And I couldn't care LESS what the Union wants me to do.

Are you freaking serious? If you are "uncomfortably" tired, you are unsafe. End of story. Educate yourself......

 

[ProFracPilot]

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. A little tired is not unsafe, just uncomfortable, it seems to me, with all due respect. And I couldn't care LESS what the Union wants me to do.

Cumulative fatigue is insidious and usually not recognizable until it is too late. Most of us have failed to call fatigue when we should have, what with being mission oriented and all that. I know my line has moved more towards safety (earlier fatigue calls). Unfortunately it took a couple of ASAP reports before I recognized a pattern.

I can't tell if you're flying as Captain. If not, and for the sake of your pax and crew, I hope your FO has the cojones to call fatigue when you should - and you don't.

Fly safe-

pfp

 

[imacdog]

Those pilots who do not recognize their own vulnerabilities are the most dangerous ones in the sky.

 

[transpac]

There's a difference between being tired and being what most people call fatigued. Anyone who states they've never flown while tired is a liar.

 

[T-1GUY]

So G4 where is your red line ??? How do you calibrate a safe range without one ? 34 years of flying and never fatigued flying international??? As a professional I would ask you to seriously re-evaluate your decision making process when it comes to this subject. I would hate to see your personal red line be a grave stone marker, taking yourself, pax, and company with you..

 

[realityman]

Good post, but i don't see where 5 hours of sleep is unsafe. Coffee helps. If the 5 hours sleep happens 2 or 3 nights consecutively, that would be fatiguing, however. No argument there.

Depends on the circumstances. In my post, if we had been assigned a later transcon that finished after, say, 10 hours of duty, we would have been looking back at only 5 hours of sleep about a 34 hour period. So as my partner and I had discussed, while we weren't too fatigued to do a little flying that night, we felt that looking ahead we would have been flying an approach at the end of the transcon in a dangerously fatigued condition. Hence the reason we decided to fatigue IF the company had assigned any such trip.

And while I understand your point, 5 hours of sleep WILL leave MOST folks still feeling tired, especially if they were worked pretty hard prior to that sleep. Coffee? Wish it worked, but I don't touch the stuff.

I agree that 5 hours by itself may not necessarily be unsafe, but there are a lot of surrounding factors (as I just discussed) to be able to make a blanket statement such as yours. In my example, one 5 hour session would not have been enough to have us fly a long duty day on the backside of the clock again.

B the way, I'm not some out of shape old guy. I'm 41 and run marathons. Fairly quickly. But the kind of schedule I described knocks me on my butt.

 

[X-rated]

There's a difference between being tired and being what most people call fatigued. Anyone who states they've never flown while tired is a liar.

ding,ding,ding....

If I thought it was unsafe to fly when I was "a little tired" I'd never set my alarm for 0300 again. Heck, I'd never show before 10am.

Look, if you are really tired, don't fly. Nobody wants you to. If you allow yourself to consider furloughed pilots while weighing that decision, you are being unprofessional, and are unethically promoting your agenda under the guise of safety. It's just as bad as management reviewing CVR's to get dirt on a pilot they don't like. Safety is sacrosanct, and anyone who misuses it's protection to promote their personal agenda illegitimizes and diminishes the safety environment. I can't respect that behavior no matter how honorable the cause.

 

[OPECJet]

ding,ding,ding....

If I thought it was unsafe to fly when I was "a little tired" I'd never set my alarm for 0300 again. Heck, I'd never show before 10am.

Look, if you are really tired, don't fly. Nobody wants you to. If you allow yourself to consider furloughed pilots while weighing that decision, you are being unprofessional, and are unethically promoting your agenda under the guise of safety. It's just as bad as management reviewing CVR's to get dirt on a pilot they don't like. Safety is sacrosanct, and anyone who misuses it's protection to promote their personal agenda illegitimizes and diminishes the safety environment. I can't respect that behavior no matter how honorable the cause.

Good post.

 

[realityman]

ding,ding,ding....

If I thought it was unsafe to fly when I was "a little tired" I'd never set my alarm for 0300 again. Heck, I'd never show before 10am.

Look, if you are really tired, don't fly. Nobody wants you to. If you allow yourself to consider furloughed pilots while weighing that decision, you are being unprofessional, and are unethically promoting your agenda under the guise of safety. It's just as bad as management reviewing CVR's to get dirt on a pilot they don't like. Safety is sacrosanct, and anyone who misuses it's protection to promote their personal agenda illegitimizes and diminishes the safety environment. I can't respect that behavior no matter how honorable the cause.

+1

A little common sense goes a long way sometimes.

 

[fischman]

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. A little tired is not unsafe, just uncomfortable, it seems to me, with all due respect. And I couldn't care LESS what the Union wants me to do.

I guess "a little drunk" isn't unsafe either.

"A little tired" IS unsafe. The company AND the union have asked REPEATEDLY to NOT fly in this compromised state. I sincerely hope that you are not a Captain with this attitude. I you are a Captain, I sincerely hope that your FO has the guts to tell you that this is a bad idea.

Flying tired puts you in a more compromised state that flying drunk. It is unsafe. It is stupid. Don't do it.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I guess "a little drunk" isn't unsafe either.

"A little tired" IS unsafe. The company AND the union have asked REPEATEDLY to NOT fly in this compromised state. I sincerely hope that you are not a Captain with this attitude. I you are a Captain, I sincerely hope that your FO has the guts to tell you that this is a bad idea.

Flying tired puts you in a more compromised state that flying drunk. It is unsafe. It is stupid. Don't do it.

A little tired can get you a little dead or a little violated. Kinda like a little pregnant.

 

[NachoMamma]

Kinda like a little pregnant.

That only happens AFTER getting a little violated.

 

[G4dude]

I guess "a little drunk" isn't unsafe either.

"A little tired" IS unsafe. The company AND the union have asked REPEATEDLY to NOT fly in this compromised state. I sincerely hope that you are not a Captain with this attitude. I you are a Captain, I sincerely hope that your FO has the guts to tell you that this is a bad idea.

Flying tired puts you in a more compromised state that flying drunk. It is unsafe. It is stupid. Don't do it.

Are you serious? A little tired is like being a little drunk? A little tired is unsafe? I feel I have stumbled through the Looking Glass for sure. I absolutely disagree with your assertions, and am amazed and disappointed to realize a colleague wrote it.

 

[G4dude]

So G4 where is your red line ??? How do you calibrate a safe range without one ? 34 years of flying and never fatigued flying international??? As a professional I would ask you to seriously re-evaluate your decision making process when it comes to this subject. I would hate to see your personal red line be a grave stone marker, taking yourself, pax, and company with you..

Good post, and a fair question. If I am assigned a trip during which at any point I think I will be at a reduced capacity beyond normal tiredness, then I intend to Fatigue. I do have an unusually high energy level, so maybe that is why I have never needed to go this route. However, I fail to see how this could happen at NetJets, with our rest rules, more than once a year or so.