First SLI thread of the day

[NEWSOUTH]

higney- I see what you are saying but the information I have gotten-I was not in the room-is that it was only for travel benefits as it cost too much as per the Pinnacle to give you an adjusted official DOH. I was always for that adjustment you talk about to keep everyone even, but hearing the things I have heard-mainly the final proposal to screw so many people that pinnacle put forth-and hearing that making everyone even was not agreed upon-hearing that there were issues with the dates giving more longevity to 9E pilots-and just the general talk from most of the pinnacle pilots who would say to my face they want our planes, want our seniority, who wrongly think they bought us-who wants to screw me for their benefit at the expense of my family-I say screw your 3 months-serves you right. Oh and if it were as easy as you say-as someone said, it would be done by now.

But in the end, you may get your 3 months-none of us know even if DOH will be given in any way. But all I want to know is why 9E did not choose DOH when it benefits so many 9E pilots? Greed-I hope that was evident to Bloch-

Hey XJHawk,

How long have you been with Mesaba? Not trying to nail you down on DOH or anything....just ball-park, so I can try an understand your mindset with this SLI. Thanks

 

[bri5150]

dude, seriously. The PCL proposal should not cloud your view of what is fair. For them to have the same DOH methodology as the rest of us is just plain fair. It is how it should be.

I think his point is that talking about stapling and other such integration theories is just plain unfair. Everthing in the Pinnacle arsonel (sp?) has been thrown at Mesaba, now there is an issue that may actually have some type of legal merit, and everyone thinks that is unfair. I still agree that the DOH's should be changed to when they started class (because that's fair), but I certainly see XJHawks point. You have thrown everything at us. Why should we not throw everything we can back at you? It's not our fault you haven't faught for DOH at the beginning of class.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Hey XJHawk,

How long have you been with Mesaba? Not trying to nail you down on DOH or anything....just ball-park, so I can try an understand your mindset with this SLI. Thanks

I am pretty sure he is in the 6-7 year range.

 

[xjhawk]

right at 8 years. I did the math and I would be fine with DOH or relative. I also looked at how would benefit most and I think DOH would benefit more Pinnacle than Mesaba, and more Mesaba than Colgan (obviously). I tend to think that since Colgan is getting such great pay raises and QOL in the new contract I think they can give some in SLI-and their fear of super senior guys coming east is not a factor. They will not go there. The Colgan Fo's would be the ones who might not get the quick upgrade as they were expecting. But if there is a lot of attrition for the majors hiring in the next five years, it will not be a factor.

There you have it, that is where I am coming from. It is not up to me, it is up to Mr Bloch.

 

[mesaba13]

I am at around 12 years (23% relative) and of course would like DOH. I am sure the 9E guys with better than 23% relative would not like this. I don't blame them but many in that group that have better relative, have less years than me and most probably didn't have a career expectation of flying a 900 in any of the three XJ bases. These guys would not be hurt if I were to be senior to them with the SLI because I and others could have already went to the 200 and been senior, so why go after integration.

I don't think DOH would screw most of the Colgan guys as bad as some think. They have some guys with 15 years in that could hold some pretty nice jet captain positions but their first guys would not come into the SLI list until around 100-150 down the new list. This again seems fair because they were a small turboprop operation and can't expect to be senior 900 captains just because they were senior flying tuboprops at poor wages. As far as the "nearly" street type captains at Colgan that have very few years in, I dont think the outlook for someone in their shoes is ever very good. They are perpetually bumped down for their career.

Many at 9E use the "Saabs going away" arguement in career expectations, but if they are to use that arguement than they must also balance that against their poor contract and working conditions as well as the Mesaba Flow though. The flow though alone prior to the merger was virtually guranteed to cause constant attrition in the bottom 85% of our company. We know that the Flow was cancelled after the merger announcement but PRIOR to the merger date we had the letter from a big shot VP at Delta welcoming the XJ guys and that was the expectation.

 

[xjhawk]

well said-I still cannot figure out what was the intentions of Pinnacle's MEC other than being greedy and trying to screw others for their own gain. Do they really think Bloch is going to side with them just because they are delusional and tried to use the argument that they bought us? I am speculating on that account-but have heard they never showed up with boxes of documents backing up their claims-just a folder/notebook.

 

[higney85]

well said-I still cannot figure out what was the intentions of Pinnacle's MEC other than being greedy and trying to screw others for their own gain. Do they really think Bloch is going to side with them just because they are delusional and tried to use the argument that they bought us? I am speculating on that account-but have heard they never showed up with boxes of documents backing up their claims-just a folder/notebook.

Nobody (except FA's) actually took the "we bought you" mindset. We are all an equal part of the "Corp" family. You guys are financed through Delta. Suffice to say, we are on the same page.

FA's think "we bought Mesaba". I have flown with a few union reps, one to the point where she got visibly upset with the words "Allegheny/Mohawk and Mckaskill-Bond act of 08". That is another thread where our side is out to lunch.

Our guys (9E) are trying to protect OUR interests. Do I agree as a line pilot.... Do you agree...? Do other 9E pilots agree...? They are autonomous of the MEC working for ONLY 9E pilots. This is FAR different than the JNC that is close and the JMEC that "has it's good and bad moments".

This is Bloch's decision, Bloch's court. We have all fought to the end over seniority. Is DOH good? For some! Does the 9E proposal protect 9E pilots? Well.. yea! Does the CJC proposal take care of their pilots? Yup...!

If Bloch reaches a decision that is entirely from one side I think we will all say "Did that just happen!?". This is arbitration with NO REASON to not go FULL BORE to protect each group. That's the nature of the beast. As soon as we all understand that fact and know that nobody will get the way that they "think" it should be, we will all face reality. Personally, I just want to be based back in MEM as a CA eventually (Currently DTW). I fully expect to NEVER get off reserve before having the resume (time) to leave.That's my "Career expectation", yet there are plenty of 9E guys that are NOT leaving. XJ has their group too (much more longevity). I can't speak of CJC- that group is junior and frankly I don't know enough people to pass judgment.

 

[xjhawk]

okay I see where you are coming from. I also can see the strategy that maybe your negotiators were using in order to get the best deal for their pilots. Start (and in this case, end) with a crazy one sided approach that benefits only them. My experiences of your pilots telling me these things (the examples I have given in the past) are from actual 9E pilots telling me-we bought you, 5:1 or if you are lucky 3:1, asset transfer, we get your jets and jobs will be offered. All the while my stance has been something fair will be fine and that will mean some sort of disappointment for all of us.

I have seen people here complaining about how unfair it is that my union is contending that 9E's DOH is wrong. I assure you our MEC would not make an issue of the DOH (and piss off Bloch in the process) if there were not a real issue with the list 9E provided. From what I hear is that Mediators/Arbitrators main job is to try to force the groups together even in the bitter end. That is why I think this was a flawed process. No negotiator is going to deal with having to fly with someone and provide a reason why they accepted a deal that screwed the said pilot. They would rather shoot for the moon and say they tried and then Bloch can be the bad guy. That being said, I think that of the three proposals Pinnacles proposal was the "furthest out there" when thinking that the final proposal was one that was suppose to bring the groups together for obvious reasons. Colgan's was next in line. I mean come on! Putting their 10 year guys next to Pinnacle's and Mesaba's 20 year guys! Really? That and they get HUGE gains in pay and work rules. I think DOH is best for all and I even have said fences would help in the short term (mainly around existing Q's and Colgan bases and 900's). Not many of the XJ FO's or Jr captains would like that-but it might work.

 

[xjhawk]

Oh and to add-my 8 years at mesaba has provided me with only a few lines (two I think in the last 3-4 years and at least 15 pilots senior to me claimed they wanted lines). Also I might add my entire time on the Saab the best thing I was ever awarded was a build up line with very few days being reserve days. On the Avro it is the same story. At that time I was awarded a few crappy lines so I went back to the build up lines. So there you have it, 8 years on reserve (mainly because I chose to bid MSP-our senior base). My expectations are this-MSP jet captain (the flow would have gotten me a line) and leave Mesaba for somewhere else.

 

[CptMurf]

Nobody (except FA's) actually took the "we bought you" mindset. We are all an equal part of the "Corp" family. You guys are financed through Delta. Suffice to say, we are on the same page.

FA's think "we bought Mesaba". I have flown with a few union reps, one to the point where she got visibly upset with the words "Allegheny/Mohawk and Mckaskill-Bond act of 08". That is another thread where our side is out to lunch.

Our guys (9E) are trying to protect OUR interests. Do I agree as a line pilot.... Do you agree...? Do other 9E pilots agree...? They are autonomous of the MEC working for ONLY 9E pilots. This is FAR different than the JNC that is close and the JMEC that "has it's good and bad moments".

This is Bloch's decision, Bloch's court. We have all fought to the end over seniority. Is DOH good? For some! Does the 9E proposal protect 9E pilots? Well.. yea! Does the CJC proposal take care of their pilots? Yup...!

If Bloch reaches a decision that is entirely from one side I think we will all say "Did that just happen!?". This is arbitration with NO REASON to not go FULL BORE to protect each group. That's the nature of the beast. As soon as we all understand that fact and know that nobody will get the way that they "think" it should be, we will all face reality. Personally, I just want to be based back in MEM as a CA eventually (Currently DTW). I fully expect to NEVER get off reserve before having the resume (time) to leave.That's my "Career expectation", yet there are plenty of 9E guys that are NOT leaving. XJ has their group too (much more longevity). I can't speak of CJC- that group is junior and frankly I don't know enough people to pass judgment.

I think 9Es position to go into negotiations with no intentions to actually negotiate, and full intentions to force this to arbitration is just wrong. That is what you have implied in your responses both here and the other forum. Yes it's your MEC/SLI responsibility to protect your group as much as possible, but lopsided integration proposals, no willingness to move in negotiations, and propagating inaccurate (whether intentional or not) lists is not the way to get there.

The other airlines proposals added protections for their pilots, and although not perfect, were a lot closer to a fair integration method than 9Es staple proposal. Status and Category could have been used, just don't imply that pilots would rather be a jet FO than a turboprop CA. Most of us have a preference bid setup like 900CA, 200CA, Q-CA, SF-CA, 900FO, 200FO, Q-FO, SF-FO. That is how the groupings should have been setup. More realistic to pilots expectations. Even that leaves 9L till the 3rd group though, since they had neither of the first 2. So still not fair to their senior guys.

Seems to me something more is going on with this list problems too. From what I understand, and a lot of information from your posts, is that on Mon. a new list was published with new dates and a re-titling of a column or something like that. But that the dates in question were corrected by Tue. If that were the case, then where's the list? Something else seems to be blocking this, or there's more to the story. At this point, I would assume 3 lists... Certified, Monday list, and Tuesday list. Are we just waiting for the Tuesday list to be verified/certified or have more dates/column titles been changed on that too? Others on the boards have also stated there is a challenge to ALPA definition of DOH vs 9Es definition vs LOAv2 definition. Is that the hold up? I heard 9L had to change some dates on their list too, but that was before it was certified, and reflected ALPAs definition. Will they get to change theirs too if 9E can? This has become a mess. Seems to me those lists should have been correct from the get go. XJs was right, 9Ls was corrected and right at the start of negotiations, and 9Es has wrecked the entire process.

 

[WWEfan]

HFS you guys still don't have an integrated list? I hope we don't use that clown, Bloch, in the ASA/XJT SLI.

 

[CptMurf]

Blochs' definition of "career expectation" should be based on making a career at this airline. Ie. Compensation/QOL received for working here until retirement. Not how fast you can upgrade and get out. There is now way to judge that. 12 years ago XJ upgrades were as quick as 9Ls are today, now look at us. Your "personnel expectation" might be how quick you can get out, but your career expectation should be based on staying. The list, the airline, the pay should not be devalued for your personal gain. Some of us might be here awhile.

 

[higney85]

I think 9Es position to go into negotiations with no intentions to actually negotiate, and full intentions to force this to arbitration is just wrong. That is what you have implied in your responses both here and the other forum. Yes it's your MEC/SLI responsibility to protect your group as much as possible, but lopsided integration proposals, no willingness to move in negotiations, and propagating inaccurate (whether intentional or not) lists is not the way to get there.

The other airlines proposals added protections for their pilots, and although not perfect, were a lot closer to a fair integration method than 9Es staple proposal. Status and Category could have been used, just don't imply that pilots would rather be a jet FO than a turboprop CA. Most of us have a preference bid setup like 900CA, 200CA, Q-CA, SF-CA, 900FO, 200FO, Q-FO, SF-FO. That is how the groupings should have been setup. More realistic to pilots expectations. Even that leaves 9L till the 3rd group though, since they had neither of the first 2. So still not fair to their senior guys.

Seems to me something more is going on with this list problems too. From what I understand, and a lot of information from your posts, is that on Mon. a new list was published with new dates and a re-titling of a column or something like that. But that the dates in question were corrected by Tue. If that were the case, then where's the list? Something else seems to be blocking this, or there's more to the story. At this point, I would assume 3 lists... Certified, Monday list, and Tuesday list. Are we just waiting for the Tuesday list to be verified/certified or have more dates/column titles been changed on that too? Others on the boards have also stated there is a challenge to ALPA definition of DOH vs 9Es definition vs LOAv2 definition. Is that the hold up? I heard 9L had to change some dates on their list too, but that was before it was certified, and reflected ALPAs definition. Will they get to change theirs too if 9E can? This has become a mess. Seems to me those lists should have been correct from the get go. XJs was right, 9Ls was corrected and right at the start of negotiations, and 9Es has wrecked the entire process.

1. The 9E guys did negotiate. They are the only group that actually changed their proposals through the entire process. There is no point to NOT negotiating in front of an arbitrator.
2. The list had no "additions" or "changes". The column that had the checkride date was simply removed in accordance with the JCBA leaving class date as DOH in seniority order. There was no re-shuffling or changes. The list was the same as the one used in negotiations from 7/1/10 with the exception of all NH's and XJ furloughs added below in DOH (only class date) order per the process/protocol agreement.
3. Status/Category was done at the regional level purely by pay. At the majors you use widebody/narrowbody due to pay.
4. There has been no comms between groups, between bloch, nobody. We have all been waiting on Bloch since tuesday after everyone responded to the list/disputes.
5. I sincerely apologize if some guys have their head in the sand about this "purchase". We did not buy you. Corp owns all 3 of us. It's as if Pinnacle, Inc. was the family dog; Colgan showed up as a stray and didn't play with us in the yard; and now XJ got picked up at the pound. We are all in the same yard and each one wants to be the "Alpa dog". In the end we are all in the same situation with the same amount of influence.

 

[suupah]

I think 9Es position to go into negotiations with no intentions to actually negotiate, and full intentions to force this to arbitration is just wrong. That is what you have implied in your responses both here and the other forum. Yes it's your MEC/SLI responsibility to protect your group as much as possible, but lopsided integration proposals, no willingness to move in negotiations, and propagating inaccurate (whether intentional or not) lists is not the way to get there.

The other airlines proposals added protections for their pilots, and although not perfect, were a lot closer to a fair integration method than 9Es staple proposal. Status and Category could have been used, just don't imply that pilots would rather be a jet FO than a turboprop CA. Most of us have a preference bid setup like 900CA, 200CA, Q-CA, SF-CA, 900FO, 200FO, Q-FO, SF-FO. That is how the groupings should have been setup. More realistic to pilots expectations. Even that leaves 9L till the 3rd group though, since they had neither of the first 2. So still not fair to their senior guys.

Seems to me something more is going on with this list problems too. From what I understand, and a lot of information from your posts, is that on Mon. a new list was published with new dates and a re-titling of a column or something like that. But that the dates in question were corrected by Tue. If that were the case, then where's the list? Something else seems to be blocking this, or there's more to the story. At this point, I would assume 3 lists... Certified, Monday list, and Tuesday list. Are we just waiting for the Tuesday list to be verified/certified or have more dates/column titles been changed on that too? Others on the boards have also stated there is a challenge to ALPA definition of DOH vs 9Es definition vs LOAv2 definition. Is that the hold up? I heard 9L had to change some dates on their list too, but that was before it was certified, and reflected ALPAs definition. Will they get to change theirs too if 9E can? This has become a mess. Seems to me those lists should have been correct from the get go. XJs was right, 9Ls was corrected and right at the start of negotiations, and 9Es has wrecked the entire process.

Your frustration, which is echoing in the halls of CJC, is loud and clear here. I whole heartedly agree that ours and XJ's proposals were favoring our respective pilot groups but both were "arguably fair" and reasonable. The only thing in your post that I disagree with is the order in a status and category scenario. I much much prefer to fly the Q400 over the 200. It is much more comfortable and is an expanding program and will probably pay better during the next contract cycle. Some here posit that the pay carve out for the Q was to make it a "lesser" aircraft for the purpose of screwing CJC in the SLI. I can see that argument now.

We'll see how this shakes out this week hopefully, then we can move toward unification.

 

[suupah]

Blochs' definition of "career expectation" should be based on making a career at this airline. Ie. Compensation/QOL received for working here until retirement. Not how fast you can upgrade and get out. There is now way to judge that. 12 years ago XJ upgrades were as quick as 9Ls are today, now look at us. Your "personnel expectation" might be how quick you can get out, but your career expectation should be based on staying. The list, the airline, the pay should not be devalued for your personal gain. Some of us might be here awhile.

Agreed. Career Expectations Should be based on this company and this company only.