Gary Kelly's ATN Comments at Message To The Field

[Flopgut]

YGBSM floppy; some of the baiting from the likes of Ty Webb (who has been "found out" btw, so he's "backed off") has been off the scale. But I do agree that some of the swa guys should tone it down and go cut the grass or something. Nothing gets solved on here but let's be fair; the mud slinging from the aai pilots has been rife on here too and the swa pilots are very aware of it.

Well, ok maybe so. Ty always has been a character on here, but maybe he said something I missed. I jumped in because 911 ought to be off limits and I think most all of us agree. I can't believe it's SWA/Airtran that is getting so heated. You'd think it was UAL/CAL that would get crazy.

 

[S3sundowner]

Flop agreed. I think most of the trannies are still running up their champagne bills, bar (no pun intended) one or two on here. No matter how this plays out, they are all going to be in a better place.

 

[Dolce]

Flop,
I was posting to someone who said we owe DAL for our contract...wrong. You are right, many companies have been mismanaged and most have been through bankruptcy and got to start over while others have been fighting the fight without that get out of jail free card! And another point...don't try to trivialize what I do compared to the long haul, autopilot monitoring with a relief pilot work you do! Also, don't talk to me about helping this profession when you live in a glass house...what have any of the majors recently done to help our profession? I don't see too many getting their pensions or pay that set the industry standard back in the day. Why don't you talk to me about how the majors have a handle on their scope clauses? What about work rules? You may look down your nose at SWA and it's employees as less than equal, but we're doing our best and you can't deny we have achieved more with our union than you have with yours! Does ALPA allow all of your pilots to be members? I wonder if they do with AAI if you get my drift? I'll quit bringing up the "date that can't be said" so I won't offend you and your sacred sensibilities about how a professional aviator should respond!

D

 

[PapaWoody]

Well, ok maybe so. Ty always has been a character on here, but maybe he said something I missed. I jumped in because 911 ought to be off limits and I think most all of us agree. I can't believe it's SWA/Airtran that is getting so heated. You'd think it was UAL/CAL that would get crazy.

I agree that 9/11 should be off limits. The havoc that it wreaked on the industry was substantial and it definitely accelerated the cyclical nature of the industry, which had been entering a downward phase since Spring of 2001. However, I don't believe that Dolce or any of the SWA guys meant to step on 9/11 toes, I think that they (however un-tactfully) were just trying to point out that our business plan and our compensation and work rules were and are better suited to weather the cyclical nature of this industry. I do agree that it could have been said better, though.

As for the SWA guys being more heated and irrational in their arguments and stance, I would respectfully disagree. I believe there are factions on both sides that are being unrealistic in their expectations. But, at the end of the day, no matter how this turns out, every AAI guy or gal that eventually falls under the SWAPA umbrella will realize an average career gain of over $1,000,000. SWA guys could actually lose money over the course of our careers with this deal. So I think it is natural for SWA guys to react more emotionally because, quite frankly, we have more at stake here. Only time will tell if this is a good thing for a SWA pilot's career, whereas it is almost certainly an unprecedented career gain for the AAI pilots.

Honestly, I hope this a good thing for my career and I also hope it is good for every SWA and AAI pilot's career. Although I think it will likely end up in arbitration, I do think their is a chance that we can negotiate an agreement that is mutually beneficial to all, assuming we can all go into it with reasonable expectations and leave the egos at home. It would be unusual in this industry, but AAI and SWA have been doing things differently from the legacies their whole lives, why should this be any different. Here's hoping we can continue that trend.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[flynvixen]

Airtran ALPA has the class to at least try and police its own pilots, I have yet to read or hear of SWAPA giving us the same courtesy.

Then stop demanding to get in our left seat on top of all else you are getting.

Take the great deal your getting and be happy look forward to flying with you but if you push for not is yours then the fight is no baby.

 

[Flopgut]

Ok guys, I'll get off this thread. Should have kept my mouth shut. I'll stop before I really start mouthing off about SWA. Just a little advice: Try to not gauge everything on the dollar figures. You can lose your pay for too many reasons than you can list and even more you can't even dream of. These are two solid companies and two really similiar, very good pilot groups. Frankly, you ought to be able to thumb your nose at convention and do this without arbitration. Some close version of trannies getting 1 SWA year for their 2 with a special seniority deal in ATL only ought to make everybody happy. SWAPA needs to fund a hundred or so early outs to put some extra skin in the game....

 

[Dolce]

Papa,
You're absolutely right...I wasn't trying to step on 9/11 toes, but I remember the date as one in which we were attacked, not as the downfall of the industry. I'm not a tactful type of individual, but it bothers me when someone with hurt feelings evokes the "all that is holy" response and cries fowl because he feels offended. Flop, I turned down a training date and seniority to go on orders...what did you do? Excuse me if I didn't realize the date was trademarked by the industry and was completely off limits. And furthermore, I will refrain from the subject and beg for everyones forgiveness!

D

 

[DougCorp-9]

Then stop demanding to get in our left seat on top of all else you are getting.

Nobody is demanding "your left seats". They just want to keep the ones they are bringing to the party.

 

[Cometman]

Nobody is demanding "your left seats". They just want to keep the ones they are bringing to the party.

You need to give up something for all the money you will be getting. The only thing SWA can get is seniority. Everything else you guys mention that SWA is getting from Airtran is offset by what you are getting from SWA. So, you get money and they get seniority. Or you can wait it out for several years and still get the same thing. I would take the money now. Or you could check with the guy that has his but so far up he cannot get it out without help. We all know who that is, right?

 

[DCitrus9]

Cometman, our seniority is not for sale. Pay rates often change and are irrelevant to a seniority discussion.

 

[cole]

Cometman, our seniority is not for sale. Pay rates often change and are irrelevant to a seniority discussion.

Great hopefully we can work something out so you guys can keep your seats and your contract. I would be fine with that. Enjoy. We just aren't giving away our contract for nothing either.

 

[On Your Six]

Did you Southwest pilots see the SLI award for Frontier and Republic? Another relative award with several totally different type companies. I don't think your staple dreams will come even remotely true. Take a look at the award if you have time. It will open your eyes, big time.


OYS

 

[dicko]

Great hopefully we can work something out so you guys can keep your seats and your contract. I would be fine with that. Enjoy. We just aren't giving away our contract for nothing either.

If it was you personally paying our wages I'd understand the sentiment.
It's not, so I don't.

 

[Cometman]

Cometman, our seniority is not for sale. Pay rates often change and are irrelevant to a seniority discussion.

Sure it is. SWA bought you. If you really think that you get to keep your seniority and all the other benefits you are dreaming. Fair and Equitable doesn't mean you get everything and they get nothing. I understand what you want but it really will not happen in the real world.

 

[cole]

If it was you personally paying our wages I'd understand the sentiment.
It's not, so I don't.

Well I guess if you OWNED your seat I'd understand the sentiment, but you don't the AIRLINE does, SWA, so the same is true.

 

[Kharma Police]

Did you Southwest pilots see the SLI award for Frontier and Republic? Another relative award with several totally different type companies. I don't think your staple dreams will come even remotely true. Take a look at the award if you have time. It will open your eyes, big time.


OYS

Interesting, I will have to check SWAPALuv.com for clear and objective analysis regarding this SLI award.

 

[LandGreen]

You need to give up something for all the money you will be getting. The only thing SWA can get is seniority. Everything else you guys mention that SWA is getting from Airtran is offset by what you are getting from SWA. So, you get money and they get seniority. Or you can wait it out for several years and still get the same thing. I would take the money now. Or you could check with the guy that has his but so far up he cannot get it out without help. We all know who that is, right?

The AirTran guys are not this stupid, cometman! They would never trade seniority for a temporary pay increase. Pay is ALWAYS temporary, seniority is forever!

Relative SLI will be great for the Tranny guys/gals, without a whole lot of upside to junior SWA guys who were told of 6 year upgrades...those guys will be pissed, but oh well...welcome to large carrier status in the airline biz!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Relative SLI will be great for the Tranny guys/gals, without a whole lot of upside to junior SWA guys who were told of 6 year upgrades...those guys will be pissed, but oh well...welcome to large carrier status in the airline biz!

Anybody want to know what it means to piss away the opportunity of a lifetime look no further than AirTran pilots.

Simply amazing. I guess ALPA has nothing to lose. Sad.

 

[cole]

The AirTran guys are not this stupid, cometman! They would never trade seniority for a temporary pay increase. Pay is ALWAYS temporary, seniority is forever!

Relative SLI will be great for the Tranny guys/gals, without a whole lot of upside to junior SWA guys who were told of 6 year upgrades...those guys will be pissed, but oh well...welcome to large carrier status in the airline biz!

Hell if seniority is everything, I am trying to figure out why people leave the regionals to go to other airlines? I know why I left my regional I would have been super senior, but the work rules, the pay, and the contract sucked. I guess seniority isn't everything. Also, if it is everything I guess the Airtran guys won't care if something happens and this deal falls apart. They will probably be just as happy as all the SWA people if it does fall apart according to the seniority is everything mantra. Last post, this gets me too fired up.

 

[Spud]

Cole, I don't think he said seniority is everything, He said it was forever.