ASA JCBA: Longterm reserve pilot relief provision

[Nevets]

no ready reserve till midnight on your last day on, nothing scheduled past 8pm your last night on

Cannot do that at XJT either.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

777Forever wants to completely circumnavigate the very basis of the seniority system, because he has been on reserve for an overwhelming majority of his time at ASA. I honestly can't say that I blame him for wanting to move off of reserve, but I can't agree with him that its the best way to do it.

If the idea of flying reserves strictly to guarantee, why wouldn't you want your highest longevity and cost per unit at that level, instead of flying at 90 hours? I would think that flying the most senior guys the least would lower the overall costs. Perhaps this concept is not the most economical, but I'm open to ideas...

 

[ex j-41]

In order to have empathy you must sometimes walk in another persons shoes. I would vote yes. Eating the young has to stop.

 

[sayrejm]

Someone mentioned making ALL days GDOs:

NO! unless we can still move them.

GDOs are permanent and can not be moved. I like being able to move my off days around.

 

[BWatz]

I like being able to move my off days around.

And so does the company.

 

[701EV]

Express Jet had been losing money for 18 months. Why do you think that is?

Come on Speed don't fall for that!

Remember when Delta owned us, they said we were losing money.

Don't think for one minute that Jerry would have bought Express Jet if is was a losing proposition. Jerry sees the potential make lots of money.


Also quite a few line holders bid reserve for December. Now quite a few reserve pilots now have line in December.

No to the Provision.

 

[CRJCptn]

As a on again/off again line holder, I don't belive we need to force lineholders into reserve. We should however, overhaul the reserve system in a way that makes it beneficial for lineholders to WANT to bid reserve.

 

[COOPERVANE]

As a on again/off again line holder, I don't believe we need to force lineholders into reserve. We should however, overhaul the reserve system in a way that makes it beneficial for lineholders to WANT to bid reserve.

Agreed. But why is isn't the MEC focusing on THAT instead of silly half-baked plans like this proposal?

Lets make reserve something senior guys would WANT to bid, that would help everybody!!

Doesn't reserve go senior on some AC at Delta?

 

[CRJCptn]

Agreed. But why is isn't the MEC focusing on THAT instead of silly half-baked plans like this proposal?

Lets make reserve something senior guys would WANT to bid, that would help everybody!!

Doesn't reserve go senior on some AC at Delta?

I belive it is because of past practice. Senior lineholders don't even let it cross their radar. To make this work it is going to take a change in thought process as well as new rules.

I guess the only acid test would be a somewhere between what we have now and what would make DH want to bid reserve... lol

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Come on Speed don't fall for that!

Remember when Delta owned us, they said we were losing money.

Don't think for one minute that Jerry would have bought Express Jet if is was a losing proposition. Jerry sees the potential make lots of money.


Also quite a few line holders bid reserve for December. Now quite a few reserve pilots now have line in December.

No to the Provision.

XJet has been losing money. Jerry didn't buy a losing proposition. He bought a company that he can turn around by combining operations, and firing a lot of management that makes more than their comparative position at ASA.

 

[JumpersAway]

XJet has been losing money. Jerry didn't buy a losing proposition. He bought a company that he can turn around by combining operations, and firing a lot of management that makes more than their comparative position at ASA.

Since Delta "helped us out" by readjusting what they pay us per block hour flown, we are losing money also. The idea is exactly as stated above- grab an airline and it's revenue stream, but without the cost of it's management and operational structure. Roll both airlines into one nice package, and we should be profitable again. This is the reason behind the push for speed of aquisition.

 

[Abernathy]

I think every Union rep should have to sit reserve a few times a year.

And I agree that the company should not be able to move off days around. The fact that it is allowed to happen is pretty nasty.

 

[maxcackel]

I think every Union rep should have to sit reserve a few times a year.

And I agree that the company should not be able to move off days around. The fact that it is allowed to happen is pretty nasty.

I like that a lot, union members must fly reserve in the summer at least once.
Then again we have MEC members that have not even flown in years, that is crazy.

 

[nerjdriver]

Express Jet had been losing money for 18 months. Why do you think that is?

Its not because of the pilots contract you retard. Now go fly your E170 ******************************.

 

[Medeco]

We have a ton of middle of the pack line holders who have not been on reserve at all or more than 3 months.

To the idiot who says if it doesn't affect me I don't care (palm), you are a fool. God forbid one day we become a Comair and you have yourself on reserve again.

All days off should be GDo's with money on top of MMG if they are moved for any reason.

Make MMG higher for Reserve by 5 hrs.

With regard to the JCBA, do not forget that this company does not realize the true benefits of a combined company until it is fully merged, giving the pilot group the upperhand In negotiating a new contract.

Do not cave on anything that has no real cost to the company.

I don't have any problem with every pilot doing 1 month of RSV in a calendar year.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't have any problem with every pilot doing 1 month of RSV in a calendar year.

Hell NO! Many of us did our time on reserve under FAR WORSE conditions than current reserves....I am growing tired of the whining from people who have no idea what it used to be like and want to force senior people to sit reserve...That will start a war I doubt they really want to start!

 

[Medeco]

I have no doubt my opinion is the minority so you can chill.

9yrs my friend, more than half on reserve. I've been around Long enough to know both sides.

I am in no way trying to minimize the seniority system, I am a believer in walking in others shoes to keep a balanced point of view.

 

[crj567]

Since Delta "helped us out" by readjusting what they pay us per block hour flown, we are losing money also. The idea is exactly as stated above- grab an airline and it's revenue stream, but without the cost of it's management and operational structure. Roll both airlines into one nice package, and we should be profitable again. This is the reason behind the push for speed of aquisition.

You really believe this "we are now unprofitable" load? Do you really think Jerry is that stupid? He obviously has just the right number of gullible people working here to use that ploy to wring every single penny of profit from us he can.

-There is no way we are or ever have lost money, even after mainline "adjustment."

 

[79%N1]

Hell NO! Many of us did our time on reserve under FAR WORSE conditions than current reserves....I am growing tired of the whining from people who have no idea what it used to be like and want to force senior people to sit reserve...That will start a war I doubt they really want to start!

While I agree with you on your point (and I'm on reserve) I just want to ask you how long did you serve reserve? It's always the guys who scream 'it used to be worse when I did it', were the guys that never really did it. So it used to be worse, yea. But you guys did it for a month or two. I have been on reserve for 4 1/2 of my 8 years here, and it still sucks. So while I agree that you shouldn't sit a month of reserve every year, spare me the lecture.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

While I agree with you on your point (and I'm on reserve) I just want to ask you how long did you serve reserve? It's always the guys who scream 'it used to be worse when I did it', were the guys that never really did it. So it used to be worse, yea. But you guys did it for a month or two. I have been on reserve for 4 1/2 of my 8 years here, and it still sucks. So while I agree that you shouldn't sit a month of reserve every year, spare me the lecture.

My gosh, did you get displaced to the left seat? Otherwise, bid back to the right seat and enjoy the 3 day trips or your choice of 4 days.

 

[dojetdriver]

No, what needs to be done is huge improvements to reserve. 13-15 days off

Agree with this. XJT has a "floating reserve line" as part of reserve line construction. 2 additional days off per bid period, 13 or 14 depending on 30 or 31 days. However, days on/off and call out time are unknown till the reserve schedules are final. Also, like long call reserve lines, the number of them is limited.

ability to pick up open time(expressjet has this),

True, but it has caveats that don't make it as great as it sounds. Would I give it up? NO, just sayin'. A line holder can grab the trip up to a certain point before trip start time. Also, getting the trip doesn't release you to show time of the the trip. You are still phone liable starting at your callout time. The open time you grab in the APW (aggressive pickup window) has to match your bucket status. If you are staring 5 days of reserve tomorrow, you basically can't do anything as there's never any 5 day trips in open time when the APW is open. Also, you CAN'T pick up a 3 day and a 2 day. If you start 4 days of reserve tomorrow, then you can grab a 4 day as it fits your bucket status. However, the trip report time has to fit in your callout time. If you callout time is 11am, you can't pick up something starting before that.

moved days off paid at 150%

XJT has this, moved days off paid at 150% and the day off is restored if at min days off for the bid period. Which applies to reserve pilots.

pay protection for cx or removed portions of a trip(start a 20hr 4 day then they gut it to 11hr 3 day) expressjet has this

I'll have to look but I'm 99% XJT does NOT have pay protection for reserve pilots in the above scenario.

Pay credits above guarantee if an off day is move

See above, XJT has that. For many line holders, the ONLY way to break guarantee is to have a day off moved.

I liked all your suggestions except this one. How about instead, all off days are GDOs?

My previous airline's CBA negotiated in 1997 had this, it carried over to the 2001 CBA. That it STILL exists is beyond me.

Everybody including me is hoping our JCBA will be an improvement over our current contract. The expressjet guys will frigginn riot in the streets before subjecting themselves to our reserve rules.

My question, since I'VE never been through this process is how likely is it the JCBA will be a real improvement for both pilot groups? Many people seem to think we can cherry pick the best from both contracts. I wish this were realistic.

More likely to me, MGMT will try and pick the WORST of both contracts. ASA reserve rules, PBS, no duty rigs, and the lower pay rates. They will sell it as the only way to make money at our lower DCI fee structure. You watch.

Anybody been through this before?

Never been through a merge JCBA before. But I agree with all your previous points. Or, the new JCBA will be an average of the two. XJT's brought down, ASA's brought up to meet in the middle. Example, I believe ASA's ready reserve is 8 hours? Correct me if I'm wrong. XJT's is 4 hours. New JCBA will be 6 hours.

I think every Union rep should have to sit reserve a few times a year.

And I agree that the company should not be able to move off days around. The fact that it is allowed to happen is pretty nasty.

Agree, XJT has the same problem. There are MEC people that have limited, if any reserve experience. One has NEVER been a line pilot, been in the school house the whole time.

 

[Alchemy]

I'll have to look but I'm 99% XJT does NOT have pay protection for reserve pilots in the above scenario.

On reserve at Expressjet, you are pay protected for whatever your schedule shows at show time. If you show for a 20 hour 3 day and they bring it down to an 11 hour 3 day, you are still paid for 20 hours. However, you lose any block or better "overs" or other DPM related soft time you might have accumulated unless it eclipses your original 20 hour value when added to your new 11 hour trip (not bloody likely).

In actuality, this clause works against us sometimes, because the more common scenario is a 20 hour 4 day being stretched into a 25 hour 5 day. In this case you lose all your block or better overs from the first 4 days because you were only pay protected for 20 hours. Your overs get absorbed into the extra 5 hours you are crediting for your 5th day, and you now only get actual block for the entire trip. This assumes of course that the 5th day was a scheduled reserve day and not a rolled day off.

 

[FishandFly]

I welcome the expressjet guys and their mec's attention to the lives of the reserve pilots. We need you very bad over here. Our senior pilots and our mec would prefer a reserve pilot actually dies trying to get the job done before they would negotiate anything in our favor.

Can a merger justify a new vote of elected officials?

 

[Dannone]

Never been through a merge JCBA before. But I agree with all your previous points. Or, the new JCBA will be an average of the two. XJT's brought down, ASA's brought up to meet in the middle. Example, I believe ASA's ready reserve is 8 hours? Correct me if I'm wrong. XJT's is 4 hours. New JCBA will be 6 hours.



Why would XJT go backwards with the new JCBA??? That kind of attitude is just what we don't need!!!! How about the best parts of both contracts?? This merger will make Jerry more money, but not without cooperation from both groups. We have been getting the Sh!t kicked out of ourselves for 10 years time to take some back!!!!

 

[crj567]

I welcome the expressjet guys and their mec's attention to the lives of the reserve pilots. We need you very bad over here. Our senior pilots and our mec would prefer a reserve pilot actually dies trying to get the job done before they would negotiate anything in our favor.

Can a merger justify a new vote of elected officials?

This really isn't a senior/junior thing... We ALL have been hosed during the last few years. I welcome any representation with some gonads. We would all benefit from some guys who know how to fight!

 

[the palm]

My gosh, did you get displaced to the left seat? Otherwise, bid back to the right seat and enjoy the 3 day trips or your choice of 4 days.

Word. I know our reserve system needs improvement, but I'm really getting tired of hearing reserves bitch and moan. If you don't like sitting reserve as a captain, why did you bid it? I know a ton of FO's who are dying to upgrade and sit reserve.

 

[the palm]

I welcome the expressjet guys and their mec's attention to the lives of the reserve pilots. We need you very bad over here. Our senior pilots and our mec would prefer a reserve pilot actually dies trying to get the job done before they would negotiate anything in our favor.

Can a merger justify a new vote of elected officials?

I'm glad this MEC represents the line holders. Keep it up! I'll keep voting for you.

 

[DHPFLYN]

Agree with this. XJT has a "floating reserve line" as part of reserve line construction. 2 additional days off per bid period, 13 or 14 depending on 30 or 31 days. However, days on/off and call out time are unknown till the reserve schedules are final. Also, like long call reserve lines, the number of them is limited.



True, but it has caveats that don't make it as great as it sounds. Would I give it up? NO, just sayin'. A line holder can grab the trip up to a certain point before trip start time. Also, getting the trip doesn't release you to show time of the the trip. You are still phone liable starting at your callout time. The open time you grab in the APW (aggressive pickup window) has to match your bucket status. If you are staring 5 days of reserve tomorrow, you basically can't do anything as there's never any 5 day trips in open time when the APW is open. Also, you CAN'T pick up a 3 day and a 2 day. If you start 4 days of reserve tomorrow, then you can grab a 4 day as it fits your bucket status. However, the trip report time has to fit in your callout time. If you callout time is 11am, you can't pick up something starting before that.



XJT has this, moved days off paid at 150% and the day off is restored if at min days off for the bid period. Which applies to reserve pilots.



I'll have to look but I'm 99% XJT does NOT have pay protection for reserve pilots in the above scenario.




See above, XJT has that. For many line holders, the ONLY way to break guarantee is to have a day off moved.



My previous airline's CBA negotiated in 1997 had this, it carried over to the 2001 CBA. That it STILL exists is beyond me.



Never been through a merge JCBA before. But I agree with all your previous points. Or, the new JCBA will be an average of the two. XJT's brought down, ASA's brought up to meet in the middle. Example, I believe ASA's ready reserve is 8 hours? Correct me if I'm wrong. XJT's is 4 hours. New JCBA will be 6 hours.



Agree, XJT has the same problem. There are MEC people that have limited, if any reserve experience. One has NEVER been a line pilot, been in the school house the whole time.

Have you ever been on reserve at Express? You don't even know how long ARC is? Also you are wrong about your bucket comment. If you are on reserve for more than 4 days in a row you are put into the 4 day bucket so yes you can pick up a 4 day trip. Yes you are pay protected for the trip you show up to do. Also hell no to voting for anything longer than 4hrs of ARC.

Please read your contract. I like how you already want to give into worse rules.

 

[FishandFly]

I'm glad this MEC represents the line holders. Keep it up! I'll keep voting for you.

Exactly my point. We need separate representation or to come together on vote day. First officers and reserve captains make up far more than 51%. It took us 5 years to get pissed enough to get a contract, I think our mec votes in a couple years may have some interesting results.

 

[dojetdriver]

On reserve at Expressjet, you are pay protected for whatever your schedule shows at show time. If you show for a 20 hour 3 day and they bring it down to an 11 hour 3 day, you are still paid for 20 hours. However, you lose any block or better "overs" or other DPM related soft time you might have accumulated unless it eclipses your original 20 hour value when added to your new 11 hour trip (not bloody likely).

In actuality, this clause works against us sometimes, because the more common scenario is a 20 hour 4 day being stretched into a 25 hour 5 day. In this case you lose all your block or better overs from the first 4 days because you were only pay protected for 20 hours. Your overs get absorbed into the extra 5 hours you are crediting for your 5th day, and you now only get actual block for the entire trip. This assumes of course that the 5th day was a scheduled reserve day and not a rolled day off.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm on ORD, I rarely see a 4 day over 12-14 hours on reserve.

Have you ever been on reserve at Express? You don't even know how long ARC is?

Yep, on 3 different occasions, thanks.

That's funny, did you even read what I wrote? Here, let me help you out;

Example, I believe ASA's ready reserve is 8 hours? Correct me if I'm wrong. XJT's is 4 hours.

Funny, every ARC sit I've had since the language got amended down from 5 to 4, has been coincidentally 4 hours. Isn't that weird? Maybe I'm just lucky.

Also you are wrong about your bucket comment. If you are on reserve for more than 4 days in a row you are put into the 4 day bucket so yes you can pick up a 4 day trip.

Interesting, you ever emailed contract compliance on this issue? I've tried to grab a 4 day while starting 5 days of reserve and been turned down because I was in the "5 day bucket". Fired it off of CC, they agreed, unable. I guess your mileage is different. But that wouldn't be the first time compliance was wrong about something.

Yes you are pay protected for the trip you show up to do. Also hell no to voting for anything longer than 4hrs of ARC.

Please read your contract. I like how you already want to give into worse rules.

Like I told the other guy, thanks for the clarification on pay protection. As for your other comments, well......... I NEVER said I wanted longer ARC, did I? Please show me where I said that.

As far as reading the contract goes, guess I was wrong about the pay protection part. Please read what I ORIGINALLY wrote about ARC, as well as re quoted for your edification. Appears reading comprehension ISN'T your strong suit, sorry buddy. Please, read your MOU's and LOA's. Do YOU know how long ARC is?