FAA Rest Rules: Impact on COMMUTING (doc pgs 89-92, 25)

[JT8D]

Any interpretations of what may develop from all this?

That's easy...

If there is a screw-up on your watch and it is determined to be directly attributable to an error you committed, the FAA will put your prior commute under a microscope.

What the 'new-world-order' legal/criminal/certificate-action/etc. ramifications are going to be for an "irresponsible commute" resulting in 'fatigue' is anyones guess and probably is directly pertinent to the severity of said incident/accident.

It's easy to glean from reading the NPRM that the Feds don't trust the company to adequately address the issue and are sublimely shifting more responsibility/consequences to the pilots in hopes that we will do a better job policing ourselves in this regard...(good luck with that one FAA).

 

[Max Powers]

Here is why you all hate it......Because truth be told commuting is UNSAFE! Move to you base if you can afford it. If you can't afford, strike your company till they pay you properly.

 

[rtmcfi]

Here is why you all hate it......Because truth be told commuting is UNSAFE! Move to you base if you can afford it. If you can't afford, strike your company till they pay you properly.

Astounding! I am unsafe because I drive 7 minutes to the airport, arriving 30 minutes prior to departure for a 50 minute flight prior to duty in. I usually get a first class seat, and grab a nap on the way to work.

I fly frequently with folks that live in base and have been up all night with screaming kids, and have a two hour drive to the airport. I guess I am the unsafe one.

 

[rtmcfi]

Obviously, all airlines need to set up suitable rest areas, and require all pilots to report to the rest areas 9 hours prior to their first flight. Those that live in base are not to be trusted any more than those that commute. The only way to be certain that the pilots are well rested will be to require them to check in 9 hours early.

 

[scoreboardII]

Looks like this has touched a nerve with the juvenile among us and those who are mature realize there's not much you can do except adapt.

JT8D and Maxpower get it.

Lear, Lumbert, rtmjcfi, don't.

here's another tidbit for you to chew on:

Today’s proposal is drafted in a manner that directly imposes the regulatory obligations on both the certificate holders and the flightcrew members. It is unfair to place all the blame for fatigue on the carriers. Pilots who pick up extra hours, moonlight, report to work when sick, commute irresponsibly, or simply choose not to take advantage of the required rest periods are as culpable as carriers who push the envelop by scheduling right up to the maximum duty limits . .

​

If you kids don't see that the cheese just moved, your in for an eye opening experience. When you have that first incident, no matter how small or large, they will track down your history. if they can show you busted the intent of these rules, you will be at fault, and out of a job as well as criminally negligent. Most companies have hold harmless and defense clauses, they defend you. those clauses also have an out in the form of criminal negligence.​

Prosecution: ​

"So did you know you were violating the new rest rules by taking the commuter flight which would add 6 hours to your day"?​

YOU: ​

"Yes. but it's my time I say!"​

Prosecution:​

"We rest our case"​

Company:​

"Your fired, and we are not defending you for your actions, good luck"​

 

[scoreboardII]

Wow, you drug your family around 15 times? No thanks I think I prefer having a happy well adjusted family. If you did that with kids and a wife you're an @ss.

Dear hpilot, those that serve this country do this every day, every week for decades. My kids grew up fine, my 1st and only wife still loves me, we've lived on four continents and had a blast, so go ******************** yourself with your "it's all about me" attitude.

 

[LearLove]

Scoreboard,

while I sort of agree with you on the commuting thing initially (like when you get hired you should move to base) but what about the airlines that move flying/bases every 2 years (or less). You can't expect a pilot with a house, wife, kids, dog, cat and goldfish to up and move every time said pilot get bumped. If that were true then at US Air guys would be moving/buying /selling homes between phl and clt ever 6 months.

Now I agree with you if you fly for say US Air and want to live in Butte, MT = then its on you, but if you move to base and your company management gets off on moving crews/flying around at will then that is another story.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, I agree, it needs to be addressed. When a company decide to move you, they need to pay, but they will fight that I know.

This ruling effectively changes the CBA.

Folks should be going back to the table to get this stuff addressed. Again, I have never said move to base, but if thats your only option, well, duh!

Maybe at least get companies to stop the asinine seasonal cross country shifts even a good company like SWA uses to manage the fleet. well, you need to manage the pilots as well, so deal companies, deal.

I still feel this whole enchilada is a bad deal, it will drive our only outlet into extinction, the fatigue call. You call in fatigue to start or anytime during and they start asking for your rest history, they look into CASS and note you commute every week, they look at your address and note you drive three hours before an AM check-in. This is bad, some of you get it, some of you think It's my fault, but then this is FI.

 

[LearLove]

Lear, I agree, it needs to be addressed. When a company decide to move you, they need to pay, but they will fight that I know.

Most companies already pay, I've flown with several guys who had my airline buy their homes in PIT. You just can't be moving every 6 months to 2 years. I'm 35 and never married/no kids no debt and even I'm getting sick of relocating every few years. I don't want to commute so I've always moved (with one 2 year exception because i couldn't afford DCA as an FO) but its starting to get old when you become so good at moving that you can fit all your belongings (minus furniture) in the back of a toyota pickup.

 

[scoreboardII]

but its starting to get old when you become so good at moving that you can fit all your belongings (minus furniture) in the back of a toyota pickup.

I feel for you, but consider what military families do every 18 months to three years. truck drivers, train engineers, cruise line employee's, everybody moves.

By the way, this is known as "the travel industry" for a reason.

 

[Lear70]

I think you've gone of the deep end, Scoreboard. There's plenty of people here who commute and have done it responsibly for 20+ years.

I submit to you there is absolutely ZERO difference between my 30 minute drive to the airport, getting there 30 minutes before my flight, and commuting a 45 minute flight into domicile than the person who lives 45 minutes away and gets stuck in a 2 hour traffic jam.

2 hours prior to a normal duty day isn't irresponsible commuting. Get over yourself and your "doomsday" message. That duck ain't huntin', and everyone here knows it.

There's a big difference between "irresponsible commuting" and the normal commuter who leaves themselves 2 commute opportunities before a normal duty day. If you can't see that, then I'm done debating you, as you obviously have NO intention of seeing common sense that has applied to 99.9% of commuting pilots for DECADES.

You don't want to commute? Fine. But don't put some perverted viewpoint of commuting on everyone else...

 

[LearLove]

I feel for you, but consider what military families do every 18 months to three years. truck drivers, train engineers, cruise line employee's, everybody moves.

By the way, this is known as "the travel industry" for a reason.

I've moved twice as many times in 11 years of 121 flying as my parents did in 8 years of active duty Air Force (and that includes Pilot training bases and aircraft specific schools). I know several truck drivers and one train engineer none of them have had to relocate ever for their jobs.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, I mostly agree with you. I also think you think I agree with the ruling, I don't.

I think this will result in pilots NOT calling in fatigued because there will be investigations as to why your tired.

My message isn't doomsday as much as what this allows the Gov to get away with; just another way to blame the pilot.

Folks need to know their jobs are on the line if they can be seen to have been "fatigued" or set themselves up to fly fatigued. My point is don't show up to work tired, some then attack me claiming I'm an anti-Christ for demanding they move to base, I'm claiming neither point. But it is interesting how when these rules are shown to impact your life, the reaction is personal attacks. Thou doth protest to much?

This will be seen just like being drunk. If thats considered doomsday, well, get ready for the asteroid. I have nothing to worry about in either event.

 

[sinkrate]

I'm not taking sides, I have nothing against commuters and have lived both sides of every argument presented in this thread. But one blurb I think most are over looking is on page 91. ​

The FAA does believe that it is unreasonable to assume that an individual is
resting while commuting. Accordingly, time spent commuting, either locally or longdistance, is not considered rest, and a certificate holder will need to consider the commuting times required by individual flightcrew members to ensure they can reach their home base while still receiving the required opportunity for rest. This approach is consistent with that taken for transportation to and from a sleep facility other than home discussed earlier in this document.​

If I am reading this right, and I do have some experience at it, this gives a Federal court language to rule that your commute time must be built into your trip. Time spent commuting is not considered rest. The way these issues will get settled is through the Federal Court system, the same process that made reserve is not rest. If the FAA decides to take enforcement action against a carrier for not doing this the same process that produced the Whitlow ruling will prevail. ​

Does anyone know how the FAA intends to ensure compliance with this passage?​

It appears the FAA is talking out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. They can't regulate it so they are going to leave it up to the individual carriers to do it. Classic FAA.​

 

[michael707767]

Here is why you all hate it......Because truth be told commuting is UNSAFE! Move to you base if you can afford it. If you can't afford, strike your company till they pay you properly.

Suppose a trip signs in about 1430, followed by a 9 hour duty day. The captain was up at 630 to get the kids off to school. Did some yard work and ran errands the rest of the day, taking care of the endless sh*t that piled up from his last trip. Then a quick shower and a rushed drive to the airport to make sign in.

The F/O commuted in from MCI. He got on a flight about 9 in the morning and took an hour nap on the way to work.

Now you tell me, who is more rested and safe to start that trip? How is commuter unsafe compared to a pilot who lives in base?

You can't say a pilot who commutes is unsafe anymore than you can say a pilot who lives in base is safe.