FAA Rest Rules: Impact on COMMUTING (doc pgs 89-92, 25)

[Lear70]

I think you've gone of the deep end, Scoreboard. There's plenty of people here who commute and have done it responsibly for 20+ years.

I submit to you there is absolutely ZERO difference between my 30 minute drive to the airport, getting there 30 minutes before my flight, and commuting a 45 minute flight into domicile than the person who lives 45 minutes away and gets stuck in a 2 hour traffic jam.

2 hours prior to a normal duty day isn't irresponsible commuting. Get over yourself and your "doomsday" message. That duck ain't huntin', and everyone here knows it.

There's a big difference between "irresponsible commuting" and the normal commuter who leaves themselves 2 commute opportunities before a normal duty day. If you can't see that, then I'm done debating you, as you obviously have NO intention of seeing common sense that has applied to 99.9% of commuting pilots for DECADES.

You don't want to commute? Fine. But don't put some perverted viewpoint of commuting on everyone else...

 

[LearLove]

I feel for you, but consider what military families do every 18 months to three years. truck drivers, train engineers, cruise line employee's, everybody moves.

By the way, this is known as "the travel industry" for a reason.

I've moved twice as many times in 11 years of 121 flying as my parents did in 8 years of active duty Air Force (and that includes Pilot training bases and aircraft specific schools). I know several truck drivers and one train engineer none of them have had to relocate ever for their jobs.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, I mostly agree with you. I also think you think I agree with the ruling, I don't.

I think this will result in pilots NOT calling in fatigued because there will be investigations as to why your tired.

My message isn't doomsday as much as what this allows the Gov to get away with; just another way to blame the pilot.

Folks need to know their jobs are on the line if they can be seen to have been "fatigued" or set themselves up to fly fatigued. My point is don't show up to work tired, some then attack me claiming I'm an anti-Christ for demanding they move to base, I'm claiming neither point. But it is interesting how when these rules are shown to impact your life, the reaction is personal attacks. Thou doth protest to much?

This will be seen just like being drunk. If thats considered doomsday, well, get ready for the asteroid. I have nothing to worry about in either event.

 

[sinkrate]

I'm not taking sides, I have nothing against commuters and have lived both sides of every argument presented in this thread. But one blurb I think most are over looking is on page 91. ​

The FAA does believe that it is unreasonable to assume that an individual is
resting while commuting. Accordingly, time spent commuting, either locally or longdistance, is not considered rest, and a certificate holder will need to consider the commuting times required by individual flightcrew members to ensure they can reach their home base while still receiving the required opportunity for rest. This approach is consistent with that taken for transportation to and from a sleep facility other than home discussed earlier in this document.​

If I am reading this right, and I do have some experience at it, this gives a Federal court language to rule that your commute time must be built into your trip. Time spent commuting is not considered rest. The way these issues will get settled is through the Federal Court system, the same process that made reserve is not rest. If the FAA decides to take enforcement action against a carrier for not doing this the same process that produced the Whitlow ruling will prevail. ​

Does anyone know how the FAA intends to ensure compliance with this passage?​

It appears the FAA is talking out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. They can't regulate it so they are going to leave it up to the individual carriers to do it. Classic FAA.​

 

[michael707767]

Here is why you all hate it......Because truth be told commuting is UNSAFE! Move to you base if you can afford it. If you can't afford, strike your company till they pay you properly.

Suppose a trip signs in about 1430, followed by a 9 hour duty day. The captain was up at 630 to get the kids off to school. Did some yard work and ran errands the rest of the day, taking care of the endless sh*t that piled up from his last trip. Then a quick shower and a rushed drive to the airport to make sign in.

The F/O commuted in from MCI. He got on a flight about 9 in the morning and took an hour nap on the way to work.

Now you tell me, who is more rested and safe to start that trip? How is commuter unsafe compared to a pilot who lives in base?

You can't say a pilot who commutes is unsafe anymore than you can say a pilot who lives in base is safe.

 

[nwaredtail]

If I am reading this right, and I do have some experience at it, this gives a Federal court language to rule that your commute time must be built into your trip. Time spent commuting is not considered rest. The way these issues will get settled is through the Federal Court system, the same process that made reserve is not rest. If the FAA decides to take enforcement action against a carrier for not doing this the same process that produced the Whitlow ruling will prevail. ​

If it's built into the trip, guess what, the carrier will have to pay duty rig time! Guess what , they will never do that so it becomes a moot point.

 

[Dizel8]

Better yet. You have a seven AM show and being a responsible commuter you plan on getting into base before 9pm, however, ATC delays, mechanical etc., etc., puts you there at midnight.

What now?

 

[wmuflyguy]

The FAA does believe that it is unreasonable to assume that an individual is
resting while commuting. Accordingly, time spent commuting, either locally or longdistance,
is not considered rest,...

Yet transportation local in nature is considered part of the rest period on an overnight...

 

[PCL_128]

Sinkrate, that portion of the document is not part of the proposed rule. It's just a discussion of the thoughts that went into the development of the NPRM. It has no affect on the law or regulations. The only part that will become regulation is the actual proposed language at the end of the document.

 

[Lear70]

Yet transportation local in nature is considered part of the rest period on an overnight...

No it's not.

In the NPRM, commuting LOCAL in nature is NOT considered part of rest.

Rest will begin once you are BEHIND the door at the hotel, and will END when you report in the lobby to head to the airport.

With a minimum rest period of 9 hours (reduceable only if YOU agree to reduce it) behind the door, this makes most overnights much closer to 10 hours compared to how we do it now.

Lots of stuff in there might work in our favor... be interesting to see how it shakes down in the end.

 

[sinkrate]

Yet transportation local in nature is considered part of the rest period on an overnight...

Read carefully, with the new rule rest does not begin until you are in the hotel , 'behind the door'. Transportation time may not be duty, but it is not rest either.

(d) No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept
an assignment for reserve or a flight duty period unless the flightcrew member is given a rest period of at least 9 consecutive hours before beginning the reserve or flight duty period measured from the time the flightcrew member reaches the hotel or other suitable accommodation.​

 

[sinkrate]

Sinkrate, that portion of the document is not part of the proposed rule. It's just a discussion of the thoughts that went into the development of the NPRM. It has no affect on the law or regulations. The only part that will become regulation is the actual proposed language at the end of the document.

If there is a question of interpretation the Courts will use this document. If the intent of this document is clear the Courts will use it. That is exactly how we ended up with most of 'interpretations' of the current rule that came to be in 1988. You should have access to the lawyers at ALPA that will verify this.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA is still doing a full analysis on the NPRM, so if they have issues with the commuting language, I'm sure it will be part of Captain Prater's testimony this week to congress. You may be right about how that would be handled by the courts. I haven't talked to any lawyers about it.

 

[whymeworry?]

care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.

That's called CRM, genius. I just came back from 4-weeks off. One of the statements to my FO was, "Hey I may be rusty for the first hr of flight, just a head-up." Would you rather be left in the dark?

I'll be you're real fun to fly a 4-day with.

 

[wmuflyguy]

No it's not.

In the NPRM, commuting LOCAL in nature is NOT considered part of rest.

Rest will begin once you are BEHIND the door at the hotel, and will END when you report in the lobby to head to the airport.

With a minimum rest period of 9 hours (reduceable only if YOU agree to reduce it) behind the door, this makes most overnights much closer to 10 hours compared to how we do it now.

Lots of stuff in there might work in our favor... be interesting to see how it shakes down in the end.

My mistake, I haven't gotten through the whole thing yet.

 

[scoreboardII]

That's called CRM, genius.

No, thats called unprofessional, Einstein.

 

[Dieterly]

So how many here want to fly with crew member that commuted as irresponsible as the FO from the Buffalo accident, or have your family onboard on one of those flights?

 

[Beetle007]

That's called CRM, genius. I just came back from 4-weeks off. One of the statements to my FO was, "Hey I may be rusty for the first hr of flight, just a head-up." Would you rather be left in the dark?

§ 117.5 Fitness for duty.​

(a) Each flightcrew member must report for any flight duty period rested and prepared to perform his or her assigned duties.​

(b) No certificate holder may assign and no flightcrew member may accept assignment to a flight duty period if the flightcrew member has reported for a flight duty period too fatigued to safely perform his or her assigned duties or if the certificate holder believes that the flightcrew member is too fatigued to safely perform his or her assigned duties.

(c) No certificate holder may permit a flightcrew member to continue a flight duty period if the flightcrew member has reported himself too fatigued to continue the assigned flight duty period.​

(d) Any person who suspects a flightcrew member of being too fatigued to perform his or her duties during flight must immediately report that information to the certificate holder.​

(e) Once notified of possible flightcrew member fatigue, the certificate holder must evaluate the flightcrew member for fitness for duty. The evaluation must be conducted by a person trained in accordance with § 117.11 and must be completed before the flightcrew member begins or continues an FDP.​

(f) As part of the dispatch or flight release, as applicable, each flightcrew member must affirmatively state he or she is fit for duty prior to commencing flight. ​

​

​

(g) Each certificate holder must develop and implement an internal evaluation and audit program approved by the Administrator that will monitor whether flightcrew members are reporting for FDPs fit for duty and correct any deficiencies.​

 

[Flopgut]

Too many of those who are anti-commuting have not been displaced....

 

[CoolSidePillow]

What is a pilot wakes up at 5am to commute to work and is duty day takes him to 11pm or so. A pretty long day and I have done it many times. What is a pilot wakes up at 5am to deal with his infant child and works the same long day. What is a pilot is up all night with a sick child. What is a pilot gets up at 5am to go for a run because that is what he was doing for 20 years in the service. What if... What if... What if...
They worry about guys commuting but they dont seem to have a problem with some of the schedule and rest acitivites that have been going on for decades. I have never been as tired in my life as I am at times working as a pilot. It is an unfortunate part of the lifestyle. Just sleeping in different beds every night disrupts rest. Newflash: Fatigue didnt cause that Colgan plane to crash. Bad piloting did. If fatigue caused crashes then planes would drop out of the sky everyday because A LOT of pilots are tired for LOTS of reasons. However, pilots are supposed to be professionals and there are responsible ways to commute to work. Commuting across the country on a redeye probably isnt the best course of action