FAA Rest Rules: Impact on COMMUTING (doc pgs 89-92, 25)

[scoreboardII]

You all need to read whats said and not shoot the messenger.

I never said move to base, I just said show up ready for work and don't expect a company to pay you more to do it, why is that so hard?

Sure you can get displaced, the company should then pay, SWA pays. Yours doesn't? So sorry, thats not my problem, I moved 15 times in the last 25 years, my choice, no one else's.

Don' sit there and cry that you need to commute, how it's somehow your right to commute, and damn everyone else in the process.

Lots of folks move every day to follow a job, get over it.

Don't want to move if thats your only option? Your local McDonald's is always hiring.

It is impossible to effectively regulate commuting.

They don't have to, they'll put it on your back, then when you ding a wing, they lookback and see you commuted in and exceeded the rules, then they'll pull your rating, simple... mark my words. But then McDonalds may not be hiring...

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.

You know what? You haven't the first idea what my deal is.....I may have a wife in a MUCH better job than this, I may have a child in a good school, I may be close to my parents and have to take care of them, rather than put them in a home.....either way, none of your arrogant business......

Airlines base people for literally MONTHS and then move them......but a hero like you who moves to follow the changes either has nothing going on worthwhile in his life or chooses to just be a jackhole and voice his opinion......If you don't feel like "babysitting", then see your Chief Pilot and pull yourself off the trip......

You must be a DEEEEE-light to fly with.....oh and by the way....I'm a commuter!! (No $hit!, right?)

 

[Lear70]

Don' sit there and cry that you need to commute, how it's somehow your right to commute, and damn everyone else in the process.

Was agreeing with you until you produced this gem...

Yes, it *IS* my FU**ING right to commute, thankyouverymuch. This industry has ALWAYS worked that way. It's the conditions under which I accepted the job. The employer doesn't have the right to change those conditions unless they are changed under my collective bargaining agreement. The end. Period. Deal with it.

I understand you don't commute. Most of us do, that's a FACT. If they somehow take away the ability to commute to work, the system would implode. Literally.

If you make pilots waste an extra day every trip, 4 days lost or so a month, pilots WILL find a way to get it back, whether it's calling in sick, or what have you. Delays and cancellations will go through the roof, as will staffing requirements... I think the ATA is intelligent enough not to want to see that make its way into law.

Don't screw with a pilot's pay or days off. You can kill a lot of other quality of life items and they'll just suck it up. Mess with their pay or days off, and you have one pi$$ed off pilot. YMMV

 

[T3700]

How do we know that those in that live in domicile are adequately rested before they show up for a flight? Maybe they should be required to sign in to a hotel near the airport to ensure that they are not distracted by things like mowing the lawn or washing the car.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lumberg, Lear, et al, you are in for a serious eye opening experience when these rules come to pass.

You have every right to commute.

Entitled to commute and violate the new rest rules, no. Good luck getting the company to pay for that by the way.

Again, I'm just the messenger, not the guy making the rule.

See you next time!

 

[ron burgundy]

care to rationalize why you should be paid more than someone who lives in domicile to show up to work ready for work?

I am tired of baby sitting the cross country commuters who are "tired" when we start and usually say something like "yeah man, I just came in from a 5 hour commute, I'm beat, watch me would ya?" WTFO.

No. I would care to elaborate on why they call you Sir Dick(head), but I think you just did that for me.

 

[PCL_128]

Voice of Reason, did you actually read the NPRM? Not the discussion for the first 100 or so pages, but the actual NPRM at the end? It doesn't impose any rules whatsoever on commuting, other than to include fatigue training in recurrent ground school, to include a discussion on responsible commuting. That's it. Nothing to see here.

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Lumberg, Lear, et al, you are in for a serious eye opening experience when these rules come to pass.

You have every right to commute.

Entitled to commute and violate the new rest rules, no. Good luck getting the company to pay for that by the way.

Again, I'm just the messenger, not the guy making the rule.

See you next time!

Easy for you to sit on that horse and preach, huh? What happens when something unforseen forces you to be based at JFK or Mexico City or whatever other crazy base pops up in the next 25 years at SWA? You gonna be singing a different tune then? Or are you gonna quit?

 

[Hpilot]

You all need to read whats said and not shoot the messenger.

I never said move to base, I just said show up ready for work and don't expect a company to pay you more to do it, why is that so hard?

Sure you can get displaced, the company should then pay, SWA pays. Yours doesn't? So sorry, thats not my problem, I moved 15 times in the last 25 years, my choice, no one else's.

Don' sit there and cry that you need to commute, how it's somehow your right to commute, and damn everyone else in the process.

Lots of folks move every day to follow a job, get over it.

Don't want to move if thats your only option? Your local McDonald's is always hiring.
They don't have to, they'll put it on your back, then when you ding a wing, they lookback and see you commuted in and exceeded the rules, then they'll pull your rating, simple... mark my words. But then McDonalds may not be hiring...

Wow, you drug your family around 15 times? No thanks I think I prefer having a happy well adjusted family. If you did that with kids and a wife you're an @ss.

 

[Lear70]

Lumberg, Lear, et al, you are in for a serious eye opening experience when these rules come to pass.

You have every right to commute.

Entitled to commute and violate the new rest rules, no. Good luck getting the company to pay for that by the way.

Again, I'm just the messenger, not the guy making the rule.

See you next time!

Read what PCL said again and absorb it (he beat me to it).

They are NOT putting rules in place against commuting or requiring it to be added to your total duty for the day... yet...

The wording from the NPRM (if you bother to read the whole thing) says the FAA was leaning that way, then the committees studying the issue along with BOTH ALPA AND THE ATA said that it wasn't feasible. Too many people commuting, too difficult to track the system, and they decided they would start with training each pilot on these new fatigue rules in a ground school modules, the dangers of fatigue, they would "SUGGEST" that a pilot "CONSIDER" their time commuting similar to time spent in van transportation by the company to/from a hotel, i.e. it is now a part of your total duty day, and continue to leave it to the pilot to act responsibly when commuting.

In the future, if another person does an all-night red-eye commute then starts a 12-14 hour duty day and buries one in at the end of the day talking about being tired on the CVR... well... for all intents and purposes, this is "fair warning" from the FAA that failure of pilots to commute responsibly will "POSSIBLY" result in actual regulations on commuting.

Believe me, airline management doesn't want commuting rules in place, either. It would result in the short-term meltdown of operational integrity, followed by a LOT of additional costs in training and staffing as they add more employees, shorten up the trips, which as a result kills the trip average credit, requiring people to work more trips, less days off at home, and management's life would get just as difficult as ours would.

No one wants that, hence why THERE ARE NO RULES ABOUT COMMUTING IN THIS NPRM.

I suggest you read it in its entirety before you post about the issue again, just so you can post intelligently on the subject. Your call, of course (that's not a moderator position, this is just my personal take on the issue - 121.471 has always been near and dear to my heart).

 

[JT8D]

Any interpretations of what may develop from all this?

That's easy...

If there is a screw-up on your watch and it is determined to be directly attributable to an error you committed, the FAA will put your prior commute under a microscope.

What the 'new-world-order' legal/criminal/certificate-action/etc. ramifications are going to be for an "irresponsible commute" resulting in 'fatigue' is anyones guess and probably is directly pertinent to the severity of said incident/accident.

It's easy to glean from reading the NPRM that the Feds don't trust the company to adequately address the issue and are sublimely shifting more responsibility/consequences to the pilots in hopes that we will do a better job policing ourselves in this regard...(good luck with that one FAA).

 

[Max Powers]

Here is why you all hate it......Because truth be told commuting is UNSAFE! Move to you base if you can afford it. If you can't afford, strike your company till they pay you properly.

 

[rtmcfi]

Here is why you all hate it......Because truth be told commuting is UNSAFE! Move to you base if you can afford it. If you can't afford, strike your company till they pay you properly.

Astounding! I am unsafe because I drive 7 minutes to the airport, arriving 30 minutes prior to departure for a 50 minute flight prior to duty in. I usually get a first class seat, and grab a nap on the way to work.

I fly frequently with folks that live in base and have been up all night with screaming kids, and have a two hour drive to the airport. I guess I am the unsafe one.

 

[rtmcfi]

Obviously, all airlines need to set up suitable rest areas, and require all pilots to report to the rest areas 9 hours prior to their first flight. Those that live in base are not to be trusted any more than those that commute. The only way to be certain that the pilots are well rested will be to require them to check in 9 hours early.

 

[scoreboardII]

Looks like this has touched a nerve with the juvenile among us and those who are mature realize there's not much you can do except adapt.

JT8D and Maxpower get it.

Lear, Lumbert, rtmjcfi, don't.

here's another tidbit for you to chew on:

Today’s proposal is drafted in a manner that directly imposes the regulatory obligations on both the certificate holders and the flightcrew members. It is unfair to place all the blame for fatigue on the carriers. Pilots who pick up extra hours, moonlight, report to work when sick, commute irresponsibly, or simply choose not to take advantage of the required rest periods are as culpable as carriers who push the envelop by scheduling right up to the maximum duty limits . .

​

If you kids don't see that the cheese just moved, your in for an eye opening experience. When you have that first incident, no matter how small or large, they will track down your history. if they can show you busted the intent of these rules, you will be at fault, and out of a job as well as criminally negligent. Most companies have hold harmless and defense clauses, they defend you. those clauses also have an out in the form of criminal negligence.​

Prosecution: ​

"So did you know you were violating the new rest rules by taking the commuter flight which would add 6 hours to your day"?​

YOU: ​

"Yes. but it's my time I say!"​

Prosecution:​

"We rest our case"​

Company:​

"Your fired, and we are not defending you for your actions, good luck"​

 

[scoreboardII]

Wow, you drug your family around 15 times? No thanks I think I prefer having a happy well adjusted family. If you did that with kids and a wife you're an @ss.

Dear hpilot, those that serve this country do this every day, every week for decades. My kids grew up fine, my 1st and only wife still loves me, we've lived on four continents and had a blast, so go ******************** yourself with your "it's all about me" attitude.

 

[LearLove]

Scoreboard,

while I sort of agree with you on the commuting thing initially (like when you get hired you should move to base) but what about the airlines that move flying/bases every 2 years (or less). You can't expect a pilot with a house, wife, kids, dog, cat and goldfish to up and move every time said pilot get bumped. If that were true then at US Air guys would be moving/buying /selling homes between phl and clt ever 6 months.

Now I agree with you if you fly for say US Air and want to live in Butte, MT = then its on you, but if you move to base and your company management gets off on moving crews/flying around at will then that is another story.

 

[scoreboardII]

Lear, I agree, it needs to be addressed. When a company decide to move you, they need to pay, but they will fight that I know.

This ruling effectively changes the CBA.

Folks should be going back to the table to get this stuff addressed. Again, I have never said move to base, but if thats your only option, well, duh!

Maybe at least get companies to stop the asinine seasonal cross country shifts even a good company like SWA uses to manage the fleet. well, you need to manage the pilots as well, so deal companies, deal.

I still feel this whole enchilada is a bad deal, it will drive our only outlet into extinction, the fatigue call. You call in fatigue to start or anytime during and they start asking for your rest history, they look into CASS and note you commute every week, they look at your address and note you drive three hours before an AM check-in. This is bad, some of you get it, some of you think It's my fault, but then this is FI.

 

[LearLove]

Lear, I agree, it needs to be addressed. When a company decide to move you, they need to pay, but they will fight that I know.

Most companies already pay, I've flown with several guys who had my airline buy their homes in PIT. You just can't be moving every 6 months to 2 years. I'm 35 and never married/no kids no debt and even I'm getting sick of relocating every few years. I don't want to commute so I've always moved (with one 2 year exception because i couldn't afford DCA as an FO) but its starting to get old when you become so good at moving that you can fit all your belongings (minus furniture) in the back of a toyota pickup.

 

[scoreboardII]

but its starting to get old when you become so good at moving that you can fit all your belongings (minus furniture) in the back of a toyota pickup.

I feel for you, but consider what military families do every 18 months to three years. truck drivers, train engineers, cruise line employee's, everybody moves.

By the way, this is known as "the travel industry" for a reason.