JetBlue ALPA drive

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Take control? Isn't that a bit of a stretch, don't ya think? If the UAL pilots were in control right after 9/11, would they have taken the pay/benefit cuts?

They negotiated and voted for their own paycuts.... so the DAL and NWA guys... I call that control.... much more than what the jb have...

And will the jetBlue pilots get the payraises and retirements they're looking for if the company isn't profitable?

If it is in a CBA... yes.

Just how much "control" will the pilots REALLY have? This is the kind of false advertising that gets ALOT of people upset with ALPA.

Perhaps you dream of being a manager or get euphoric when management tells pilots that they are 'leaders' of the company.

Management controls the company. Always has, always will....

Air Line Pilots do not run airlines.

One thing is for certain if JB votes ALPA on property: alot more revenue for Herndon.

Not really.... I would suspect, initially, the JB pilot group would be an additional cost to ALPA... however, if the JB pilots decide that ALPA is not a good ROI they can decertify.... you know that whole control thing....

Look I know democracy and the addtional work of managing your own career is frightening for many. It is easy to get attracted to the ideal of "I just want to fly my trip and go home" and hand the reins over to management and let them decide pay, work rules and benefits.... but this has been going on for decades now, and since before 1931 pilots have wanted to self govern their profession.


Now that we are done... can you answer the following...

Since you advocate an in house union for jb pilots...

The in house effort, JBPA failed... Why?


How long will it take an in house union to become effective?

Who at Jetblue would be the leaders of this in house union?

Is USAPA a good or bad example of going in house?

What would the dues rate be at an jetblue in house?
​

Since there really isn't an in house option.. the only real choices are

Status quo. Management and the ATA speak for jb pilots

ALPA. jb pilots get their own MEC and self govern.
​

So of those two real choices? Which is best for jb pilots?

 

[Blue Dude]

Just how much "control" will the pilots REALLY have? This is the kind of false advertising that gets ALOT of people upset with ALPA.

One thing is for certain if JB votes ALPA on property: alot more revenue for Herndon.

The most anyone can reasonably ask for is a seat at the table, and the authority to make enforceable agreements. That's it. The actual agreements depend largely on factors outside our, or anyone's, control. But even that limited influence is better than none.

Besides all that, certain basic services and protections are either disallowed or unproven outside of a CBA, even a really bad one. And I have enough faith in our pilot group to choose wise representation from among our 2000 pilots that I'm not concerned that our first CBA will be any worse than we have it right now, plus we'll be covered under the law for those things we can't do now. If that means 1.95% of my pay is deducted for such purposes, it seems like a bargain to me. We're giving away quite a bit more than that already by not having a CBA anyway.

Your argument sounds a lot like getting mad at the insurance company for taking your premiums if your house *doesn't* burn down. I'm frankly puzzled.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Take control? Like Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, et al.?

Just three? Surely you can come up with more failed airlines than that!

Better yet... can you tie over 50 bankrupt airlines to just 5 guys?

 

[pilotyip]

Wait, you want the pilots to pay for the changes in the FAR's?

Should we then assume, that if the FAA required fire suppression in your freighters, you would take it out of your pilots pay check?

Pilots are not paying for increases in costs, purchasers of air fare will pay for the increased cost. Some will elect not to pay, and find a lower cost i.e Bus, car, etc.

Take control? Like Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, et al.?

Hey this is FI, stop dealing in reality

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The most anyone can reasonably ask for is a seat at the table, and the authority to make enforceable agreements. That's it. The actual agreements depend largely on factors outside our, or anyone's, control. But even that limited influence is better than none.

Actually there is an entire political world out there waiting to be tapped and leveraged....

For example, local politicians and boards can determine policy interpretations when a labor group pickets. From the size of the area to the number of pilots that picket.

Now, I am not saying that one should vote for a local candidate because you want a large area to march with many pilots... just don't be surprised if the opposite occurs because there is an anti labor politician or board that authorizes your picketing permit.

Dave Behncke ALPA's first President was wise to affiliate with the American Federal of Labor. He knew how to build relationships with political leaders. There is an entire support network out there to be tapped, but you gotta give to get.... It takes time and perseverance... It is not for the "I just want to fly my trip and go home" crowd.

Besides all that, certain basic services and protections are either disallowed or unproven outside of a CBA, even a really bad one. And I have enough faith in our pilot group to choose wise representation from among our 2000 pilots that I'm not concerned that our first CBA will be any worse than we have it right now, plus we'll be covered under the law for those things we can't do now. If that means 1.95% of my pay is deducted for such purposes, it seems like a bargain to me. We're giving away quite a bit more than that already by not having a CBA anyway.

No doubt there are smart and education pilots in your ranks. As a MEC you'd be able to really decide your own course...

In the bad times, like this decade, many pilots want ALPA to be a union, where a small group of leaders "get things done". However, when the economy booms and each pilot group can negotiate from its own growth, they don't want to be hindered by a national plan to set wages....

Thus the autonomy of the MECs.

Plus the 1.95% is tax deductible.

Your argument sounds a lot like getting mad at the insurance company for taking your premiums if your house *doesn't* burn down. I'm frankly puzzled.

I just was honest answers from him....

 

[Blue Dude]

Pilots are not paying for increases in costs, purchasers of air fare will pay for the increased cost. Some will elect not to pay, and find a lower cost i.e Bus, car, etc.

Then management can make a business case for lower pilot costs when they negotiate an agreement with the pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

Then management can make a business case for lower pilot costs when they negotiate an agreement with the pilots.

no problem with that, but unions sometimes do not pay attention to what management says, UAW 1994 drove GM intoan agreement that GM knew it could not fund, but the threat of a strike was greater that the threat of a future BK, so they gave in, the rest is history

 

[Blue Dude]

Actually there is an entire political world out there waiting to be tapped and leveraged....

Call me naive, but I don't give a rat's patootie about political leverage. I'm simply trying to negotiate the best deal possible given the incredible legal and structural constraints on our profession. The law currently disallows a number of critically necessary benefits and protections outside of a CBA, and ALPA is the best, most direct means of achieving one, period. Don't confuse this very pragmatic approach with some kumbaya quest for global pilot solidarity.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, if there was any other way to achieve these goals, I'd jump at it in a heartbeat.

 

[Regul8r]

They negotiated and voted for their own paycuts.... so the DAL and NWA guys... I call that control.... much more than what the jb have...

The cuts were imposed on the pilots by forces outside of ALPA's control.

If it is in a CBA... yes.

Just like the post 9/11 paycuts. All the contracts were gutted in the bankruptcy courts. Again...by forces well outside of ALPA's control.

Perhaps you dream of being a manager or get euphoric when management tells pilots that they are 'leaders' of the company.

Management controls the company. Always has, always will....

Air Line Pilots do not run airlines.

I've never worked for a company that has called the employees "leaders". "Most valuable asset" sure, but I don't know anybody that takes management seriously...just like when ALPA cheerleaders try the old sales pitch of "Take control of your career with ALPA!" What control?!?

Look I know democracy and the addtional work of managing your own career is frightening for many. It is easy to get attracted to the ideal of "I just want to fly my trip and go home" and hand the reins over to management and let them decide pay, work rules and benefits.... but this has been going on for decades now, and since before 1931 pilots have wanted to self govern their profession.

I can see the ALPA sales pitch now: Democracy, an American Flag, and an Apple Pie! Are we missing any other patriotic connotations for the ALPA advertisement?

At this point you're arguing with yourself: If pilots don't run airlines, how are they going to ever have real control over their careers?

The in house effort, JBPA failed... Why?

How long will it take an in house union to become effective?

Who at Jetblue would be the leaders of this in house union?

Is USAPA a good or bad example of going in house?

What would the dues rate be at an jetblue in house?
​

Since there really isn't an in house option.. the only real choices are

Status quo. Management and the ATA speak for jb pilots

ALPA. jb pilots get their own MEC and self govern.
​

So of those two real choices? Which is best for jb pilots?

Go ask a jB pilot

 

[Regul8r]

Just three? Surely you can come up with more failed airlines than that!

There are many more than just three ALPA carriers that failed. If the pilots had control over their careers...why did they let their companies go out of business?

They had control, didn't they?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Call me naive, but I don't give a rat's patootie about political leverage. I'm simply trying to negotiate the best deal possible given the incredible legal and structural constraints on our profession. The law currently disallows a number of critically necessary benefits and protections outside of a CBA, and ALPA is the best, most direct means of achieving one, period. Don't confuse this very pragmatic approach with some kumbaya quest for global pilot solidarity.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, if there was any other way to achieve these goals, I'd jump at it in a heartbeat.

It is all about politics.... there is a reason ALPA moved its main office from Chicago to DC....

 

[Regul8r]

The most anyone can reasonably ask for is a seat at the table, and the authority to make enforceable agreements. That's it. The actual agreements depend largely on factors outside our, or anyone's, control. But even that limited influence is better than none.

Besides all that, certain basic services and protections are either disallowed or unproven outside of a CBA, even a really bad one. And I have enough faith in our pilot group to choose wise representation from among our 2000 pilots that I'm not concerned that our first CBA will be any worse than we have it right now, plus we'll be covered under the law for those things we can't do now. If that means 1.95% of my pay is deducted for such purposes, it seems like a bargain to me. We're giving away quite a bit more than that already by not having a CBA anyway.

Your argument sounds a lot like getting mad at the insurance company for taking your premiums if your house *doesn't* burn down. I'm frankly puzzled.

It's apparent you think I am anti union...which I am not. Until you understand that, you'll continue misinterpreting my statements. If you understand the limitations of a union (which there are ALOT) then you'll be a little less upset when the union fails to deliver on promises made. That's all. Succinct enough?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There are many more than just three ALPA carriers that failed. If the pilots had control over their careers...why did they let their companies go out of business?

The same reason why, as a child you let your parents do a poor job of raising you...

They had control, didn't they?

Nope... I already told you... Air Line Pilots do not run airlines....

 

[Blue Dude]

It's apparent you think I am anti union...which I am not. Until you understand that, you'll continue misinterpreting my statements. If you understand the limitations of a union (which there are ALOT) then you'll be a little less upset when the union fails to deliver on promises made. That's all. Succinct enough?

Perfectly. I don't expect all that much, so I'm not apt to be disappointed anyway.

 

[Regul8r]

The same reason why, as a child you let your parents do a poor job of raising you...

...and thus concludes this evenings question/answer session.