JetBlue ALPA drive

[Blue Dude]

Pilots are not paying for increases in costs, purchasers of air fare will pay for the increased cost. Some will elect not to pay, and find a lower cost i.e Bus, car, etc.

Then management can make a business case for lower pilot costs when they negotiate an agreement with the pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

Then management can make a business case for lower pilot costs when they negotiate an agreement with the pilots.

no problem with that, but unions sometimes do not pay attention to what management says, UAW 1994 drove GM intoan agreement that GM knew it could not fund, but the threat of a strike was greater that the threat of a future BK, so they gave in, the rest is history

 

[Blue Dude]

Actually there is an entire political world out there waiting to be tapped and leveraged....

Call me naive, but I don't give a rat's patootie about political leverage. I'm simply trying to negotiate the best deal possible given the incredible legal and structural constraints on our profession. The law currently disallows a number of critically necessary benefits and protections outside of a CBA, and ALPA is the best, most direct means of achieving one, period. Don't confuse this very pragmatic approach with some kumbaya quest for global pilot solidarity.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, if there was any other way to achieve these goals, I'd jump at it in a heartbeat.

 

[Regul8r]

They negotiated and voted for their own paycuts.... so the DAL and NWA guys... I call that control.... much more than what the jb have...

The cuts were imposed on the pilots by forces outside of ALPA's control.

If it is in a CBA... yes.

Just like the post 9/11 paycuts. All the contracts were gutted in the bankruptcy courts. Again...by forces well outside of ALPA's control.

Perhaps you dream of being a manager or get euphoric when management tells pilots that they are 'leaders' of the company.

Management controls the company. Always has, always will....

Air Line Pilots do not run airlines.

I've never worked for a company that has called the employees "leaders". "Most valuable asset" sure, but I don't know anybody that takes management seriously...just like when ALPA cheerleaders try the old sales pitch of "Take control of your career with ALPA!" What control?!?

Look I know democracy and the addtional work of managing your own career is frightening for many. It is easy to get attracted to the ideal of "I just want to fly my trip and go home" and hand the reins over to management and let them decide pay, work rules and benefits.... but this has been going on for decades now, and since before 1931 pilots have wanted to self govern their profession.

I can see the ALPA sales pitch now: Democracy, an American Flag, and an Apple Pie! Are we missing any other patriotic connotations for the ALPA advertisement?

At this point you're arguing with yourself: If pilots don't run airlines, how are they going to ever have real control over their careers?

The in house effort, JBPA failed... Why?

How long will it take an in house union to become effective?

Who at Jetblue would be the leaders of this in house union?

Is USAPA a good or bad example of going in house?

What would the dues rate be at an jetblue in house?
​

Since there really isn't an in house option.. the only real choices are

Status quo. Management and the ATA speak for jb pilots

ALPA. jb pilots get their own MEC and self govern.
​

So of those two real choices? Which is best for jb pilots?

Go ask a jB pilot

 

[Regul8r]

Just three? Surely you can come up with more failed airlines than that!

There are many more than just three ALPA carriers that failed. If the pilots had control over their careers...why did they let their companies go out of business?

They had control, didn't they?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Call me naive, but I don't give a rat's patootie about political leverage. I'm simply trying to negotiate the best deal possible given the incredible legal and structural constraints on our profession. The law currently disallows a number of critically necessary benefits and protections outside of a CBA, and ALPA is the best, most direct means of achieving one, period. Don't confuse this very pragmatic approach with some kumbaya quest for global pilot solidarity.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, if there was any other way to achieve these goals, I'd jump at it in a heartbeat.

It is all about politics.... there is a reason ALPA moved its main office from Chicago to DC....

 

[Regul8r]

The most anyone can reasonably ask for is a seat at the table, and the authority to make enforceable agreements. That's it. The actual agreements depend largely on factors outside our, or anyone's, control. But even that limited influence is better than none.

Besides all that, certain basic services and protections are either disallowed or unproven outside of a CBA, even a really bad one. And I have enough faith in our pilot group to choose wise representation from among our 2000 pilots that I'm not concerned that our first CBA will be any worse than we have it right now, plus we'll be covered under the law for those things we can't do now. If that means 1.95% of my pay is deducted for such purposes, it seems like a bargain to me. We're giving away quite a bit more than that already by not having a CBA anyway.

Your argument sounds a lot like getting mad at the insurance company for taking your premiums if your house *doesn't* burn down. I'm frankly puzzled.

It's apparent you think I am anti union...which I am not. Until you understand that, you'll continue misinterpreting my statements. If you understand the limitations of a union (which there are ALOT) then you'll be a little less upset when the union fails to deliver on promises made. That's all. Succinct enough?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There are many more than just three ALPA carriers that failed. If the pilots had control over their careers...why did they let their companies go out of business?

The same reason why, as a child you let your parents do a poor job of raising you...

They had control, didn't they?

Nope... I already told you... Air Line Pilots do not run airlines....

 

[Blue Dude]

It's apparent you think I am anti union...which I am not. Until you understand that, you'll continue misinterpreting my statements. If you understand the limitations of a union (which there are ALOT) then you'll be a little less upset when the union fails to deliver on promises made. That's all. Succinct enough?

Perfectly. I don't expect all that much, so I'm not apt to be disappointed anyway.

 

[Regul8r]

The same reason why, as a child you let your parents do a poor job of raising you...

...and thus concludes this evenings question/answer session.

 

[PCL_128]

And ALPA has teeth? Yes...let's go talk to those airtran guys and see what leaps and bounds they have made in their efforts to negotiate a contract since ALPA came on property.

I'm glad you asked! Since ALPA came on the property, we have gone from 171 grievances in the backlog to under 40. Since ALPA came on the property, we have gone from 5 TA'd contract sections with basically no improvements, to all but a few economic pieces remaining open, and a likely contract or release within a couple of months. Since ALPA came on the property, we have returned a contract hostage to work, and we have instituted a mandatory assessment to help out other contract hostages and other pilots who have financial difficulties. Since ALPA came on the property, we have picketed for the first time in our pilot group's history, and we have voted 98% in favor of authorizing a strike, something the independent union never could have dreamed of accomplishing.

Starting to get the picture? The AirTran pilots are quite happy with their ALPA representation.

Good luck to the JetBlue pilots. I hope to see you wearing ALPA pins very soon. You deserve a binding contract and real representation.

 

[pilotyip]

one and only Rez,

There are many more than just three ALPA carriers that failed. If the pilots had control over their careers...why did they let their companies go out of business?

They had control, didn't they?

I can add, Tranamerican an ALPA carrier, and Zantop a Teamsters carrier.

Perfectly. I don't expect all that much, so I'm not apt to be disappointed anyway.

sounds like a guy that has been there done that and has a sense of the the reality of the situation. After 11 jobs since leaving the Navy, I have adopted another slogan, "Expect nothing and you will never be disappointed” I know it sounds like having no drive, ambition or goals, but that is not the case. There is so much in this business you have absolutely no control over, these effect your job. To fret unnecessarily over those things causes ulcers, it is not worth it. Getting depressed over stupid things that you have no control over is nor worth it. BTW Blue Dude you see Rez's answer when she can not handle it, slam your parents. Watch you too may be in her tag line some day.

 

[Blue Dude]

BTW Blue Dude you see Rez's answer when she can not handle it, slam your parents. Watch you too may be in her tag line some day.

Actually I read Rez's "parents" quip as an analogy gone awry. I think I see where he (she?) was going with it (pilots control their companies the same way children control how they're raised by their parents), but it came off as an insult on first reading. That's the internet for you.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Actually I read Rez's "parents" quip as an analogy gone awry. I think I see where he (she?) was going with it (pilots control their companies the same way children control how they're raised by their parents), but it came off as an insult on first reading. That's the internet for you.

Well..... perhaps....

If it was insulting.... then perhaps there is some truth....

or.. perhaps one has a low level of self esteem.....

If one acts like a child, they should not be surprised to be treated like one...

and

If one acts ignorant, they should not be surprised to be treated like an idiot....

The guy has intentionally (or not....) made logical fallacies about pilots controlling companies and why ALPA is such a failure.... the best way to engage, is simply not to....

Pilots like to think of themselves as special, and while as a group that has common characteristics, pilots are more in common with the average person than not....

Currently ALPA stinks because for the past 9 years being an Air Line Pilot stinks. ALPA is the biggest on the block so it gets the bulls eye. Yet the anti-USAPA crowd has already pointed out ALPA gains and asks when USAPA is going to make some gains for its pilots.... time will tell...

Most pilots want days off and money in their wallet. Until the company or a union does that, they will be jaded, pissed off, angry and bitter... Recall most pilots "just want to fly their trip and go home". These cynics usually want the gains without the responsibility and have had unrealistic expectations in the first place, but they will never be objective enough to consider or admit that...

Fact, is this industry is and economy is cyclical. Too much so in that we have big booms and big crashes.... when the boom hits again those with the better representation will get the most gains.... those with none will not or lag.....

 

[nosoupforyou!]

Call me naive, but I don't give a rat's patootie about political leverage. I'm simply trying to negotiate the best deal possible given the incredible legal and structural constraints on our profession. The law currently disallows a number of critically necessary benefits and protections outside of a CBA, and ALPA is the best, most direct means of achieving one, period. Don't confuse this very pragmatic approach with some kumbaya quest for global pilot solidarity.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, if there was any other way to achieve these goals, I'd jump at it in a heartbeat.

In case you have not done so yet, take the time to read "Flying the Line" and you will see in no uncertain terms just how your patootie has been covered by ALPA's political leverage............seriously....just do it.

 

[pilotyip]

Pilots like to think of themselves as special, and while as a group that has common characteristics, pilots are more in common with the average person than not....

Currently ALPA stinks because for the past 9 years being an Air Line Pilot stinks. ALPA is the biggest on the block so it gets the bulls eye. Yet the anti-USAPA crowd has already pointed out ALPA gains and asks when USAPA is going to make some gains for its pilots.... time will tell...

Most pilots want days off and money in their wallet. Until the company or a union does that, they will be jaded, pissed off, angry and bitter... Recall most pilots "just want to fly their trip and go home". These cynics usually want the gains without the responsibility and have had unrealistic expectations in the first place, but they will never be objective enough to consider or admit that...

Fact, is this industry is and economy is cyclical. Too much so in that we have big booms and big crashes.... when the boom hits again those with the better representation will get the most gains.... those with none will not or lag.....

looks like we agree on something

 

[texman]

Jetblue welcome to SWA! Who needs Alpo! lol

 

[tailhookah]

bluedude wrote:

Call me naive, but I don't give a rat's patootie about political leverage. I'm simply trying to negotiate the best deal possible given the incredible legal and structural constraints on our profession. The law currently disallows a number of critically necessary benefits and protections outside of a CBA, and ALPA is the best, most direct means of achieving one, period. Don't confuse this very pragmatic approach with some kumbaya quest for global pilot solidarity.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, if there was any other way to achieve these goals, I'd jump at it in a heartbeat.

Spot on and that's the truth. Why do so many have such a beef w/ your statement? I think they are the naive ones. We've given B6 the chance to do the right thing and they haven't. They've had the ability to make those changes to prevent Alpa from coming on property, but they haven't. Not my fault. Not yours either. Now it's time for a change. We'll take charge of our contract... that's what Alpa allows along w/ many additional safety riders.

Tailhookah

 

[tailhookah]

regul8r wrote:

There are many more than just three ALPA carriers that failed. If the pilots had control over their careers...why did they let their companies go out of business?

They had control, didn't they?

I love this angle you guys use... companies go out of business due to bad management or a bad business climate. Labor has a PART in that but not 100%. In the end the vast majority of failed businesses are due to inept or greedy management. It's not the UAW's fault that GM continued to make SUV's and base their whole business plan on huge truck and SUV sales while fuel was 4 bucks a gallon.

In fact there are many instances of union concessions that have allowed mangement to save the company and re-tool. But then those concessions usually have "snap backs" that will allow for a return to previous contracts when the company recovers so greedy and inept managements don't rob the very hand that saved them.

Many anti-labor guys on this board like to lump Alpa into the "bad" pile. Many of you who saw Alpa from the regional view point and are now w/ a major need to wake up and see that the perspective has changed. You have to embrace your future and take control over your contract because if you let some greedy exec. do it you'll always be sucking hind teet...

Wake up and do your homework!

tailhookah

 

[pilotyip]

regul8r wrote:
I love this angle you guys use... companies go out of business due to bad management or a bad business climate. Labor has a PART in that but not 100%. In the end the vast majority of failed businesses are due to inept or greedy management. It's not the UAW's fault that GM continued to make SUV's and base their whole business plan on huge truck and SUV sales while fuel was 4 bucks a gallon.

tailhookah

Back in the SUVs hey day of the early 2000's. It cost the UAW automakers about $1,500-$2,000 more per car more to make a car due to these contracts obligations and feather bedding, pay for not working and a hose of other contract obligations that made them unproductive compared to their non-union auto makers. You can only milk the cow so much before it goes dry. They have to make more margin per car to break even. Because the production cost is fixed and almost the same for a Explorer and a Focus, they had to sell the high-end SUV to make a profit. Ford could sell 10M Focuses and not make a profit. They thrived in the late 90's on cheap gas and SUV's with high mark ups. The UAW was between a rock and a hard place in the reality of the market where consumer decise who will survive and who will not. However, the pilot board here does not care about people in the UAW, they feel the non-union factories do a better job. Is that what I read?