JetBlue ALPA drive

[OurMoney1]

You guys aren't thinking rationally. Once you let in farmed out flying will never go away, infact it will increase. Your short sighted when you say "yes but it will keep others employeed." Thats silly speak. That flying belongs to Jetblue crews who want to grow, upgrade, begin retirement planning, holidays off, and watch their careers mature as the decades pass.

I hear your arguments but they dont have any significant merit. A CBA is needed on your property tomorrow. You are professionals, I have had you in my jumpseat, I have talked with you, I have heard about your wifes, your kids, your life....wake up and sign up! You need protections from the boardroom antics that your leadership team is dreaming up. YOU NEED ALPA!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Correct! History proves that ALPA hasn't been able to protect the pilots from themselves in the past...how will jetBlue be any different?

I would rather gamble on my union than on management promises.....but that's just me!!

 

[pilotyip]

right on

Correct! History proves that ALPA hasn't been able to protect the pilots from themselves in the past...how will jetBlue be any different?

I thing the guy is on to something

The is the problem with our version of capitalism....

it must either grow to keep cost down, and if that is not working.... say this decade... then cost must be slashed.....


on a planet with limited resources we need sustainability.....not an an unrealistic growth plan....

What would the other version of capitalism be? how do you keep costs down, when you have built in cost growth with employee expectations of higher income. New carriers now enter the markets with lower costs, consumers vote with their dollars, and old airline is no longer profitable.

 

[fifty30retard]

You guys aren't thinking rationally. Once you let in farmed out flying will never go away, infact it will increase. Your short sighted when you say "yes but it will keep others employeed." Thats silly speak. That flying belongs to Jetblue crews who want to grow, upgrade, begin retirement planning, holidays off, and watch their careers mature as the decades pass.

I hear your arguments but they dont have any significant merit. A CBA is needed on your property tomorrow. You are professionals, I have had you in my jumpseat, I have talked with you, I have heard about your wifes, your kids, your life....wake up and sign up! You need protections from the boardroom antics that your leadership team is dreaming up. YOU NEED ALPA!

Many of us are thinking rationally. I believe the post you are referring to was written by Pilotyip....a board troll that loves to espouse his political views and general opinions on anything. The thing is he does not even work for JetBlue! Nevermind the troll.

You are right about farming out flying, many here still don't get it but the union drive has wheels.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I thing the guy is on to something


What would the other version of capitalism be? how do you keep costs down, when you have built in cost growth with employee expectations of higher income. New carriers now enter the markets with lower costs, consumers vote with their dollars, and old airline is no longer profitable.

Yip.....all due respect.....It's guys like you who are the supply to the new entrants rather than fight for ALL comers to have high salaries for their pilots. You'd rather slog around and say "I'm just happy to have a job". You are a pilot, not a capitalist.

 

[pilotyip]

Wishing you the best

Yip.....all due respect.....It's guys like you who are the supply to the new entrants rather than fight for ALL comers to have high salaries for their pilots. You'd rather slog around and say "I'm just happy to have a job". You are a pilot, not a capitalist.

yea you are probably right. I think when a company gets as big as JB's they need a union so there is one voice with which management has to deal. But to think you can survive by getting what you want, more pay and more days off, and making your airline non-competitive, well I think that is a fairy tale. I am only saying there may be unintended consequences of your actions, and I just trying to be a good CRM guy about going off the end of the runway. I have no dog in this fight and my experiences at now defunct union airlines are only my experiences. But I saw a lot of this we will show management who is boss, but that was many jobs ago, I sure today's union promoters would never think like that. BTW My family and friends are all consumers of airline travel and screw them, it is about you guys in the cockpit. Do consumers of air travel have no say in your battle plans?

 

[skywav8r]

Many people on these boards blame ALPA for farming out flying, bad contracts, bankruptcy ect... The reality is that WE are to blame. WE are the ones who are ALPA. WE are the ones who make up our MEC and LEC.

ALPA national really doesn't have all the power we think they have. They are a central office that houses the lawyers and specialists we rely on. They are the central office that we blame for all our problems.

To correct our problems EACH INDIVIDUAL MEC has to grow some balls and fight for a better contract, better scope. I blame my LEC and MEC for scope problems and lack of pay restoration since bankruptcy. I also commend them for at least getting us some pay increases during the merger and some other scope sensitive issues that have come up recently. I have high expectations of my union officers for 2012.

ALPA, APA, SWAPA are all made up of pilots. The difference is that APA and SWAPA are unions fighting for their own pilot group. These two didn't have the capital to fight a big fight when they first started up. I don't know the history or the numbers to back this up but its my belief that if a big fight started when they were new unions they wouldn't of had the money or resources to fight it. (hopefully I'm not speaking outta my a$$ so feel free to correct me)

If SWA starts to lag in pay over the next few years are we going to blame SWAPA? I don't think so. They have done a great job and face tough times trying to squeeze any more money from management. I interviewed once at SWA and did not get the job. (only 2 of 22 got hired that day!!) I really bought into the kool-aid there. I still do. They are a great company who takes care of their peeps and I would love to have worked there. APA had a tool running the show for awhile. Now they seem to be heading in the right direction. The pilot group has spoken and forced a shift in leadership just like a union is supposed to do. What I do not know is how do these smaller unions with less money in the bank afford the same protections as a larger union? Do you pay a fee to use the ALPA folks? Do You have great lawyers on retainer? Do you have medical staff, schedulers, ex-management on your payroll?? I don't know if what I have is better than your system or not but I am happy with what I have. I think ALPA is the best of a necessary evil (union) which pilots require.

ALPA should be thought of as a lot of mini SWAPA's and APA's around North America. These groups come together to form ALPA National. The benefit of ALPA comes with its size. More folks bring in more money and more brains. You can joke about the warchest and all that other crap that ALPA spews out to try and get new members. I think they are horrible salesmen. But you can't dispute the fact that our collective dues provide some useful tools.

I am not an ALPA officer or volunteer, just a line guy spouting my opinion.


Hoserpilot

 

[Blue Dude]

BTW My family and friends are all consumers of airline travel and screw them, it is about you guys in the cockpit. Do consumers of air travel have no say in your battle plans?

Just a gentle reminder: Your friends and family are far from being screwed. Airfares in real dollars have been dropping for decades. Must my pay do the same, or can the company consider my pay as a cost of doing business for services rendered and instead compete in other areas? I'm more comfortable with the notion of negotiating pay/benefit cuts and freezes as deemed necessary than simply having them imposed. Take it or leave it contract terms just don't cut it anymore.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Correct! History proves that ALPA hasn't been able to protect the pilots from themselves in the past...how will jetBlue be any different?

You are suggesting that "ALPA" over ride the will of the membership in terms of membership ratification. Meaning that pilots can't be given information and make decisions for themselves....

Does Captains Authority have any application?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Not to steal a thread creep but I have a question for those people at SWA (Wave, Luv, Gup etc.).

Let me set this up.....this is not a dig. When age 65 was discussed, do you feel it was a majority at Swapa who wanted age 65? My question is making a statement, it doesn't matter which union you are in....either in house or large multi-airline.....the boys at the top are steering the ship and us line dogs usually get the engine room.

That being said....I would rather trust the Captain (union) than the guy who owns the ship (airline management) when seas are rough.

 

[pilotyip]

I'm more comfortable with the notion of negotiating pay/benefit cuts and freezes as deemed necessary than simply having them imposed. Take it or leave it contract terms just don't cut it anymore.

screw'em might not have been the correct word, but to think you can operate without considering the impact on the people who buy tickets and have instant access to the cheapest fare from A to B, is not reality. You sound wise in understanding there may have to be give backs to survive. As man who has been between job many times, from my view a lower paying job is better than no job. But only my view, besides I really like flying airplanes

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The 60 day window for the FAA's new flight/duty time NPRM has begun....

The ATA has some very strong opinions about it...

ATA: We back pilot-rest rules that are science-based, improve safety
The FAA on Friday unveiled its long-awaited rules on pilot rest, kicking off a 60-day public comment period that could generate significant controversy. Under the proposed rules, pilots would be required to have nine hours of rest time prior to flying, a one-hour increase over current levels. Weekly and monthly rest requirements also would be updated, with some guidelines increased by up to 25%. The airline industry has warned that inflexible work rules would drive up costs and endanger a shaky recovery. Bloomberg (9/10) , Reuters (9/10) , Google/The Associated Press (9/10)

Right now, the ATA speaks for Jetblue pilots. They will determine what is best for jetblue pilots. In their opinion a "shakey recovery" is more important than safety.

ALPA pilots, thru ALPA National who have long standing relationships with congressional offices, White House contacts and contact with FAA Administrator Babbitt, former ALPA president, will be able to discuss the issues with the above govt representatives. Will ALPA get everything it wants? Does anyone?

Who will the Jetblue pilots call? Ghostbusters? The fun times are over.... Seriously guys, it is time to take control of your careers.

 

[pilotyip]

unintended consequence things.

The 60 day window for the FAA's new flight/duty time NPRM has begun.....

So you are saying it will not change costs, and if it does change costs where will the additional revenue come from, the passengers? What if they elect to ride in fewer numbers and lay offs result?

 

[Dizel8]

Wait, you want the pilots to pay for the changes in the FAR's?

Should we then assume, that if the FAA required fire suppression in your freighters, you would take it out of your pilots pay check?

 

[Regul8r]

The fun times are over.... Seriously guys, it is time to take control of your careers.

Take control? Like Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, et al.?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Take control? Isn't that a bit of a stretch, don't ya think? If the UAL pilots were in control right after 9/11, would they have taken the pay/benefit cuts?

They negotiated and voted for their own paycuts.... so the DAL and NWA guys... I call that control.... much more than what the jb have...

And will the jetBlue pilots get the payraises and retirements they're looking for if the company isn't profitable?

If it is in a CBA... yes.

Just how much "control" will the pilots REALLY have? This is the kind of false advertising that gets ALOT of people upset with ALPA.

Perhaps you dream of being a manager or get euphoric when management tells pilots that they are 'leaders' of the company.

Management controls the company. Always has, always will....

Air Line Pilots do not run airlines.

One thing is for certain if JB votes ALPA on property: alot more revenue for Herndon.

Not really.... I would suspect, initially, the JB pilot group would be an additional cost to ALPA... however, if the JB pilots decide that ALPA is not a good ROI they can decertify.... you know that whole control thing....

Look I know democracy and the addtional work of managing your own career is frightening for many. It is easy to get attracted to the ideal of "I just want to fly my trip and go home" and hand the reins over to management and let them decide pay, work rules and benefits.... but this has been going on for decades now, and since before 1931 pilots have wanted to self govern their profession.


Now that we are done... can you answer the following...

Since you advocate an in house union for jb pilots...

The in house effort, JBPA failed... Why?


How long will it take an in house union to become effective?

Who at Jetblue would be the leaders of this in house union?

Is USAPA a good or bad example of going in house?

What would the dues rate be at an jetblue in house?
​

Since there really isn't an in house option.. the only real choices are

Status quo. Management and the ATA speak for jb pilots

ALPA. jb pilots get their own MEC and self govern.
​

So of those two real choices? Which is best for jb pilots?

 

[Blue Dude]

Just how much "control" will the pilots REALLY have? This is the kind of false advertising that gets ALOT of people upset with ALPA.

One thing is for certain if JB votes ALPA on property: alot more revenue for Herndon.

The most anyone can reasonably ask for is a seat at the table, and the authority to make enforceable agreements. That's it. The actual agreements depend largely on factors outside our, or anyone's, control. But even that limited influence is better than none.

Besides all that, certain basic services and protections are either disallowed or unproven outside of a CBA, even a really bad one. And I have enough faith in our pilot group to choose wise representation from among our 2000 pilots that I'm not concerned that our first CBA will be any worse than we have it right now, plus we'll be covered under the law for those things we can't do now. If that means 1.95% of my pay is deducted for such purposes, it seems like a bargain to me. We're giving away quite a bit more than that already by not having a CBA anyway.

Your argument sounds a lot like getting mad at the insurance company for taking your premiums if your house *doesn't* burn down. I'm frankly puzzled.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Take control? Like Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, et al.?

Just three? Surely you can come up with more failed airlines than that!

Better yet... can you tie over 50 bankrupt airlines to just 5 guys?

 

[pilotyip]

Wait, you want the pilots to pay for the changes in the FAR's?

Should we then assume, that if the FAA required fire suppression in your freighters, you would take it out of your pilots pay check?

Pilots are not paying for increases in costs, purchasers of air fare will pay for the increased cost. Some will elect not to pay, and find a lower cost i.e Bus, car, etc.

Take control? Like Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, et al.?

Hey this is FI, stop dealing in reality

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The most anyone can reasonably ask for is a seat at the table, and the authority to make enforceable agreements. That's it. The actual agreements depend largely on factors outside our, or anyone's, control. But even that limited influence is better than none.

Actually there is an entire political world out there waiting to be tapped and leveraged....

For example, local politicians and boards can determine policy interpretations when a labor group pickets. From the size of the area to the number of pilots that picket.

Now, I am not saying that one should vote for a local candidate because you want a large area to march with many pilots... just don't be surprised if the opposite occurs because there is an anti labor politician or board that authorizes your picketing permit.

Dave Behncke ALPA's first President was wise to affiliate with the American Federal of Labor. He knew how to build relationships with political leaders. There is an entire support network out there to be tapped, but you gotta give to get.... It takes time and perseverance... It is not for the "I just want to fly my trip and go home" crowd.

Besides all that, certain basic services and protections are either disallowed or unproven outside of a CBA, even a really bad one. And I have enough faith in our pilot group to choose wise representation from among our 2000 pilots that I'm not concerned that our first CBA will be any worse than we have it right now, plus we'll be covered under the law for those things we can't do now. If that means 1.95% of my pay is deducted for such purposes, it seems like a bargain to me. We're giving away quite a bit more than that already by not having a CBA anyway.

No doubt there are smart and education pilots in your ranks. As a MEC you'd be able to really decide your own course...

In the bad times, like this decade, many pilots want ALPA to be a union, where a small group of leaders "get things done". However, when the economy booms and each pilot group can negotiate from its own growth, they don't want to be hindered by a national plan to set wages....

Thus the autonomy of the MECs.

Plus the 1.95% is tax deductible.

Your argument sounds a lot like getting mad at the insurance company for taking your premiums if your house *doesn't* burn down. I'm frankly puzzled.

I just was honest answers from him....