JetBlue ALPA drive

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes. Just not ALPA.

Yeah, I got it....


why?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

And ALPA has teeth? Yes...let's go talk to those airtran guys and see what leaps and bounds they have made in their efforts to negotiate a contract since ALPA came on property. Sometimes a Union is necessary...but to go with ALPA based on their fear-mongering and patriotic analogies? Remember: ALPA's purpose is to Schedule with safety. It has nothing to do with Pay...benefits...hotels, or most anything else that affects QOL. SWA didn't start out with the highest pay-rates in the industry, how did they manage that without ALPA?

Wow....talk about a moving target....where to begin?

Alpa has nothing to do with QOL? Have you ever worked under an ALPA contract or are you talking out of your a-hole?

As far as the SWA thing, it's REAL easy to be industry leader in pay when your company is making large profits. PURE AND SIMPLE!!

Just ask United and Delta in 2000. We were the highest paid, making CRAZY profits and later under the threat of a bankruptcy judge we had to cut our wages. You can blame ALPA all you want, but that was the facts. Even the mighty SWAPA or IBT couldn't match up with that threat if it was placed on them.

I've heard monkeys on here say things like "If you notice, IBT and in-house usually gets their people raises and ALPA are all being cut and in Bankruptcy!" Guess what?? ALPA pilots WERE the best compensated, best paid, best quality of life, pilot contracts and that made them the target of all of management. The in-house and IBT represented were much smaller change, repping only a few thousand tops! ALPA contracts were the low hanging fruit (65,000 pilots in 2001) that once they got beat down, the rest would follow by pattern.

I pick up the phone and have a former scheduler supervisor working for me, answering any question I may have like 'Can they do that to me?" If I get sick or injured, I pick up the phone again and speak WITH A DOCTOR who walks me back to a medical. If I crash a plane, I have a Lawyer, a certified CIRP person for family and myself, a trained Pilot Accident investigator......all within a phone call. Sure, I could go in-house, and pay a little less, but at just under two percent of gross.....All this makes it worth it!!!

So REgula8r, speak only of what you know, because you don't know what's up at ALPA........

 

[skywav8r]

To all the Jet Blue union organizers. You will have a better chance succeeding if you stop the mudslinging and run a professional union drive. I've been through three failed drives at Skywest. One outspoken jerk can pi$$ off many potential yes voters.

To those on the fence. I didn't really see the true benefits of a union until I became part of a union carrier. I didn't realize what all the committee members and volunteers did on the Delta pilots behalf. Now I can see how important it is to have these folks working for me. I also see how I benefited from their hard work while I was piggybacking on them at my non-union job. Skywest pilots definitely benefited from Comair to the penny.

The anti-Alpa crowd is vocal. They usually speak the truth too. But you usually hear about the bad and they never speak about the good. I respect your opinion to not have a union. It's not right for everyone. Just remember, your union is only as good as the people that you elect to represent you...your MEC and LEC. Can't blame national for bad choices by your own group.

I really enjoy having a contract and not a policy manual. Its nice knowing exactly what is required of you and management. If there is a gray area it seems to get hashed out pretty quickly one way or another. We have 12000 anal type A pilots.....I'd hate to have to deal with that!!

I like having a grievance process even though I know it could take years to win. I received a check from a grievance the first six months I was here.

I've attended many meetings and helped pass a couple resolutions. These were both acted upon in later meetings. I like voting and having that vote count. Voting at skywest was basically just an opinion poll that only 20% of the pilots contributed to. The only time skywest pilots stepped up to the plate was when management tried to change the drinking rules from 8 hours to 12 hours bottle to throttle. WOW! We sure got everyone's attention with that one.....over 90% voted their 'opinion'.

I don't ever plan on screwing up but I really like having a professional to call in the event that I do. It's nice to have an intermediary and lawyers just in case. Think of it as expensive insurance.

I use some of the Alpa insurance but only because I'm still searching for something better. This was not a selling point for me.

I knew Alpa lobbied on behalf of all pilots but I didn't know how much own MEC did. They have worked tirelessly on issues for our pilots. Retirement, safety, pension reform, DOT issues, ect... Many issues my MEC works on also benefit all other carriers, union or not. This is a HUGE selling point for me. I am greatly relieved that we as pilots have these people working for us. Thank you for your efforts.

Sure was nice having two Alpa carriers merge. I guess some of the thanks to a smooth merger has to come from the poor TWA pilots and a stapler. Reform came too late for them. Usair and America West......what a mess. I guess my line of reasoning could be seen as good or bad on this one but I think history is teaching the unions how to have a successful merger. Flame away but at least there is a framework set up now that is better than what we had in the past.

Professional standards - Pilots taking care of pilots before management has to step in.


Anyway, as you can see I'm a union advocate. I also think that Alpa, despite the negative rhetoric, is the best choice. Alpa national definitely needs a thorough house cleaning. The pay is obscene. A damn secretary should NOT be making over $100,000 per year. Crap like that has to be stopped!! I do think that National does have its place. We need a central organizer. We need a central bank account. We need to have a place where all the lawyers and contract specialists can be contacted by all Alpa members and member airlines. We need a common lobbying voice for all pilots. I don't know what to say about the conflict of interest between regional and majors that hasn't already been said. I'm not sure how to resolve that. I do think that a smaller carrier can greatly benefit from Alpa membership. The money and resources that can be thrown together is greater than any new in-house union can come up with.

Good luck with your drive and vote the way you want. Thank you for reading MY opinion.

 

[StarChecker]

Vote ALPA and we'll have a better BUF layover hotel? Is that really your sales pitch?

How's this...


SCOPE
HEALTHCARE
RETIREMENT


Exactly how do you intend to fix these issues under the current system? I'm not saying ALPA can guarantee anything except legal/aeromedical support, but what is the alternative? How do we get these issues fixed?

We have pilots on disability who are losing their health insurance.
We have a crew in SMF getting legal support from ALPA rather than use the company provided lawyer with no aviation background, who is there for the F/A's and the pilots.
We have health insurance and retirement anchored to all 11,000 employees.
We have NO SCOPE CLAUSE....18 months after JBPA.....NO SCOPE CLAUSE.

Don't just say no.....come up with an alternative to ALPA and I'm all for it. You want JBPA.....then start it up again.

Anyone with a brain stem can see the current process isn't working. How many committee resignations do we have in the last 2 weeks?

What is the alternative?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

How's this...


SCOPE
HEALTHCARE
RETIREMENT


Exactly how do you intend to fix these issues under the current system? I'm not saying ALPA can guarantee anything except legal/aeromedical support, but what is the alternative? How do we get these issues fixed?

We have pilots on disability who are losing their health insurance.
We have a crew in SMF getting legal support from ALPA rather than use the company provided lawyer with no aviation background, who is there for the F/A's and the pilots.
We have health insurance and retirement anchored to all 11,000 employees.
We have NO SCOPE CLAUSE....18 months after JBPA.....NO SCOPE CLAUSE.

Don't just say no.....come up with an alternative to ALPA and I'm all for it. You want JBPA.....then start it up again.

Anyone with a brain stem can see the current process isn't working. How many committee resignations do we have in the last 2 weeks?

What is the alternative?

Where are you at? That would help form the argument!

 

[Regul8r]

Sorry to break it to you Bill, been there, done that, got the subscription to the ALPA rag.

Alpa has nothing to do with QOL? Have you ever worked under an ALPA contract or are you talking out of your a-hole?

Yes, I have. And having ALPA on property does not ensure there will be any gains in QOL. You can only squeeze so much blood from a turnip. They schedule with safety, remember?

As far as the SWA thing, it's REAL easy to be industry leader in pay when your company is making large profits. PURE AND SIMPLE!!

So how will ALPA on property make the company profitable so you can enjoy better pay and benefits?

Just ask United and Delta in 2000. We were the highest paid, making CRAZY profits and later under the threat of a bankruptcy judge we had to cut our wages. You can blame ALPA all you want, but that was the facts. Even the mighty SWAPA or IBT couldn't match up with that threat if it was placed on them.

Lets ask those same Delta and United pilots today what they think of ALPA. If ALPA is the powerhouse the cheerleaders proclaim it to be...why don't the UAL and DAL pilots enjoy the 2000 pay/benefits today?

I've heard monkeys on here say things like "If you notice, IBT and in-house usually gets their people raises and ALPA are all being cut and in Bankruptcy!" Guess what?? ALPA pilots WERE the best compensated, best paid, best quality of life, pilot contracts and that made them the target of all of management. The in-house and IBT represented were much smaller change, repping only a few thousand tops! ALPA contracts were the low hanging fruit (65,000 pilots in 2001) that once they got beat down, the rest would follow by pattern.

Past tense...which leads us to believe that it had little to do with the ALPA name. Other Unions have had great success as well. Turn the tables now and lets say ALPA represented SWA pilots. Would the SWA pilots do well under ALPA? I would bet yes. Why? Because the union isn't as pivotal as the ALPA chest thumpers WANT to believe they are.

I pick up the phone and have a former scheduler supervisor working for me, answering any question I may have like 'Can they do that to me?" If I get sick or injured, I pick up the phone again and speak WITH A DOCTOR who walks me back to a medical. If I crash a plane, I have a Lawyer, a certified CIRP person for family and myself, a trained Pilot Accident investigator......all within a phone call. Sure, I could go in-house, and pay a little less, but at just under two percent of gross.....All this makes it worth it!!!

Right right, we've already read the ALPA advertisements. The bottom line is you have to try and divert the attention away from falling pay scales and erosion of QOL to the consolation prizes, or membership benefits as you call them.

What they fail to mention is how many pilots have been thrown under the ALPA bus with the phrase "sorry, we don't defend bad pilots"

ALPA is 90% marketing in my experience and they sure don't have the influence the cheerleaders pretend they do.

 

[Caveman]

skywav8r,

Great post and my sentiments exactly exept for one small correction. Despite what you may read on a message board the overwhelming majority of us on the OC are making the case for ALPA in a persuasive, calm, and rational manner. I sincerely hope no one is making a decision about whether or not to organize based soley on what they read on an anonymous message board. There isn't any way to determine who the poster really is. They may or may not really support the union drive. They may be posting just to stir the pot and create controversy.

If anybody reading this is on the fence or against the union drive please take a few minutes to talk to one of us on the OC. Look for the lanyards and bag tags. We aren't going to harrass you or insult you. Give us a few minutes of your time to quietly and calmly make our case. That's all we're asking. If you've already decided to support the union drive please let an OC member know that too. Part of what we're doing is canvassing the pilot group to gauge support.

Other than that your post is post on. ALPA isn't perfect. Neither is my wife, but I'm still glad I married her.

 

[BeachBummer]

Spot on! This thread should end now...

BTW, the ALPA supporters are not the only "mudslingers" here. Please fight the urge to open your mouth. It really only hurts the cause. This drive is going well, we need to speed it up though. Keep on it!~!

To all the Jet Blue union organizers. You will have a better chance succeeding if you stop the mudslinging and run a professional union drive. I've been through three failed drives at Skywest. One outspoken jerk can pi$$ off many potential yes voters.

To those on the fence. I didn't really see the true benefits of a union until I became part of a union carrier. I didn't realize what all the committee members and volunteers did on the Delta pilots behalf. Now I can see how important it is to have these folks working for me. I also see how I benefited from their hard work while I was piggybacking on them at my non-union job. Skywest pilots definitely benefited from Comair to the penny.

The anti-Alpa crowd is vocal. They usually speak the truth too. But you usually hear about the bad and they never speak about the good. I respect your opinion to not have a union. It's not right for everyone. Just remember, your union is only as good as the people that you elect to represent you...your MEC and LEC. Can't blame national for bad choices by your own group.

I really enjoy having a contract and not a policy manual. Its nice knowing exactly what is required of you and management. If there is a gray area it seems to get hashed out pretty quickly one way or another. We have 12000 anal type A pilots.....I'd hate to have to deal with that!!

I like having a grievance process even though I know it could take years to win. I received a check from a grievance the first six months I was here.

I've attended many meetings and helped pass a couple resolutions. These were both acted upon in later meetings. I like voting and having that vote count. Voting at skywest was basically just an opinion poll that only 20% of the pilots contributed to. The only time skywest pilots stepped up to the plate was when management tried to change the drinking rules from 8 hours to 12 hours bottle to throttle. WOW! We sure got everyone's attention with that one.....over 90% voted their 'opinion'.

I don't ever plan on screwing up but I really like having a professional to call in the event that I do. It's nice to have an intermediary and lawyers just in case. Think of it as expensive insurance.

I use some of the Alpa insurance but only because I'm still searching for something better. This was not a selling point for me.

I knew Alpa lobbied on behalf of all pilots but I didn't know how much own MEC did. They have worked tirelessly on issues for our pilots. Retirement, safety, pension reform, DOT issues, ect... Many issues my MEC works on also benefit all other carriers, union or not. This is a HUGE selling point for me. I am greatly relieved that we as pilots have these people working for us. Thank you for your efforts.

Sure was nice having two Alpa carriers merge. I guess some of the thanks to a smooth merger has to come from the poor TWA pilots and a stapler. Reform came too late for them. Usair and America West......what a mess. I guess my line of reasoning could be seen as good or bad on this one but I think history is teaching the unions how to have a successful merger. Flame away but at least there is a framework set up now that is better than what we had in the past.

Professional standards - Pilots taking care of pilots before management has to step in.


Anyway, as you can see I'm a union advocate. I also think that Alpa, despite the negative rhetoric, is the best choice. Alpa national definitely needs a thorough house cleaning. The pay is obscene. A damn secretary should NOT be making over $100,000 per year. Crap like that has to be stopped!! I do think that National does have its place. We need a central organizer. We need a central bank account. We need to have a place where all the lawyers and contract specialists can be contacted by all Alpa members and member airlines. We need a common lobbying voice for all pilots. I don't know what to say about the conflict of interest between regional and majors that hasn't already been said. I'm not sure how to resolve that. I do think that a smaller carrier can greatly benefit from Alpa membership. The money and resources that can be thrown together is greater than any new in-house union can come up with.

Good luck with your drive and vote the way you want. Thank you for reading MY opinion.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Regul8r....

Sounds like somebody got fired for doing bad.....ALPA can't defend stupidity, even at all costs.

I'm not going to line-item rebut my statements with you until you comprehend what I said......Barney Frank said it best....."it would be like debating a table!" Your SWA arguments are vague at best and tough to solidify your point.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

skywav8r,



Other than that your post is post on. ALPA isn't perfect. Neither is my wife, but I'm still glad I married her.

Best Post of the Year......hands down!!!:laugh: