JetBlue ALPA drive

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Back in the SUVs hey day of the early 2000's. It cost the UAW automakers about $1,500-$2,000 more per car more to make a car due to these contracts obligations and feather bedding, pay for not working and a hose of other contract obligations that made them unproductive compared to their non-union auto makers. You can only milk the cow so much before it goes dry. They have to make more margin per car to break even. Because the production cost is fixed and almost the same for a Explorer and a Focus, they had to sell the high-end SUV to make a profit. Ford could sell 10M Focuses and not make a profit. They thrived in the late 90's on cheap gas and SUV's with high mark ups. The UAW was between a rock and a hard place in the reality of the market where consumer decise who will survive and who will not. However, the pilot board here does not care about people in the UAW, they feel the non-union factories do a better job. Is that what I read?

YAWN!! Who knows what you'd have to talk about if you didn't live in MI....

Airline pilot unions operate under the RLA unlike the UAW.... next!

Meanwhile CEO's came and went, carved themselves out golden parachutes and basically operated with the attitude of what is in it for me... how do you expect the unions to respond...

Look, if Jetblue pilots go ALPA, then can be the giveaway union and do whatever management wants. Or they can be hardliners. The point is.. they get to decide...

Why are you so afraid of a pilot group gaining autonomy? The jetblue pilots are smart guys... they can figure it out...

Are you advocating that jetblue pilots not unionize and embrace the status quo?

 

[pilotyip]

YAWN!! Who knows what you'd have to talk about if you didn't live in MI....

Why are you so afraid of a pilot group gaining autonomy? The jetblue pilots are smart guys... they can figure it out...

Are you advocating that jetblue pilots not unionize and embrace the status quo?

not afraid at all, I have just seen the 'battle cry" of more days off and more money at airlines that decided they could afford it and went out of business. Were those smart pilots also? If unions want to work management to increase productivity to increase benefits, and pay I am all for it, but that is rarely the battle cry.

 

[GogglesPisano]

that made them unproductive compared to their non-union auto makers.

Just who were these non-union auto makers?

 

[pilotyip]

Toyota

Just who were these non-union auto makers?

Toyota for one, I am not sure about Honda, but Toyota was the big benefactor of Detroit's higher costs.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

not afraid at all, I have just seen the 'battle cry" of more days off and more money at airlines that decided they could afford it and went out of business. Were those smart pilots also? If unions want to work management to increase productivity to increase benefits, and pay I am all for it, but that is rarely the battle cry.

Yet you didn't answer my question....

The jb pilots' battle cry isn't more days off and more money....

Are you for or against the jetblue pilots gaining representation? I do recall you thought the Spirit pilots should stand down...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Toyota for one, I am not sure about Honda, but Toyota was the big benefactor of Detroit's higher costs.

And those where healthcare and pensions.. something every worker shoud have...

In the end the UAW worked with management and got hourly cost in line with non union workers in right to work states... (hint the Southeast!) The only difference was the health care and pension...

Seems most people thought the UAWworkers should just give up thier HC and pensions.... Do you?

Also, do you have a pension and healthcare from a job in which you are no longer productive? (retired?)

 

[CFIT]

Gee Rez, Most the ALPA carriers gave up their pension's and health care.

How come Prater gets a life time pension and medical from ALPA for just a few years of obscenely compensated lunchoens.

Please answer in the form of a question......

The only reason ALPO wants JB is for dues.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey read don't react

Yet you didn't answer my question....

The jb pilots' battle cry isn't more days off and more money....

Are you for or against the jetblue pilots gaining representation? I do recall you thought the Spirit pilots should stand down...

go back a few posts and I said JB pilots should probably have a union, one voice for all the pilots. But once you have the union, mob think moves in and drives the company into a corner to meet the union's demands and destroys the company that provides their living. Only my experience. As stated before if the union works with management to become more productive, it is a great relationship. BTW as far as retirement bennys, they were available to any one wanted to join the military and spend 20+ years.

 

[PCL_128]

How come Prater gets a life time pension and medical from ALPA for just a few years of obscenely compensated lunchoens.

Assuming Captain Prater doesn't get reelected, his pension will only be for 20% of earnings. It's 5% for each year served. Not exactly a huge windfall for giving up 4 years of his life to work for his fellow pilots.

The only reason ALPO wants JB is for dues.

JetBlue will be a net loss for ALPA for several years, and then will likely only break even until they get bigger. It's not about dues.

But once you have the union, mob think moves in and drives the company into a corner to meet the union's demands and destroys the company that provides their living.

I can only dream that unions will someday have even a fraction of the power over management that you claim we have.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

go back a few posts and I said JB pilots should probably have a union, one voice for all the pilots. But once you have the union, mob think moves in and drives the company into a corner to meet the union's demands and destroys the company that provides their living.

of course... becasue you say so.....

Only my experience.

which is inclusive or exlusive

As stated before if the union works with management to become more productive, it is a great relationship.

Interesting... why did you not say .... if management works with the union? Are they in charge of the company?

BTW as far as retirement bennys, they were available to any one wanted to join the military and spend 20+ years.

So the MIL is the only way to get retirement bennies? What if a MIL guy dies at 19.5 years? What about his spouse and kids?

Logic fail.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

go back a few posts and I said JB pilots should probably have a union, one voice for all the pilots. But once you have the union, mob think moves in and drives the company into a corner to meet the union's demands and destroys the company that provides their living. Only my experience. As stated before if the union works with management to become more productive, it is a great relationship. BTW as far as retirement bennys, they were available to any one wanted to join the military and spend 20+ years.

Please, you have no dog in this one. Take your 20 years and ...

 

[pilotyip]

Please, you have no dog in this one. Take your 20 years and ...

I ahve a lot of friends that work there this has been a topic of discussion over beers, it is wrong to continue it here? Is it wrong to share my experiences working as union member at an airline? Or is the only course to follow is unions can do no wrong and management can do no right?

of course... becasue you say so.....

Interesting... why did you not say .... if management works with the union? Are they in charge of the company?

So the MIL is the only way to get retirement bennies? What if a MIL guy dies at 19.5 years? What about his spouse and kids?.

Nice touch yes of course it has to be each party working with other to increase productivity to ensure the airline's survival. BTW 19.5 widow and kids would continue to recieve benefits, the same as my wife if check out before her.

 

[kommutrdog]

The Jetblue experiment is over.

Ding. Ding. Winner, winner get your chicken dinner.

I did not vote for the JBPA but now will vote for a CBA. It's done. Fun while it lasted.

 

[SWA/FO]

go back a few posts and I said JB pilots should probably have a union, one voice for

all the pilots. But once you have the union, mob think moves in and drives the company into a corner to meet the union's demands and destroys the company that provides their living. Only my experience. As stated before if the union works with management to become more productive, it is a great relationship. BTW as far as retirement bennys, they were available to any one wanted to join the military and spend 20+ years.

As in Southwest Airlines, the most unionized airline in the Country.

 

[Regul8r]

I'm glad you asked! Since ALPA came on the property, we have gone from 171 grievances in the backlog to under 40.

Awesome...screw pay raises and more benefits...lets get those grievances brought under control! Where is that on the priority list...like number 9 or 10? Window dressing, my friend.

Since ALPA came on the property, we have gone from 5 TA'd contract sections with basically no improvements, to all but a few economic pieces remaining open, and a likely contract or release within a couple of months.

A few economic pieces??? Like PAY? The chickens haven't hatched and you want to put it up on the score board? Easy there big guy...

Since ALPA came on the property, we have returned a contract hostage to work, and we have instituted a mandatory assessment to help out other contract hostages and other pilots who have financial difficulties. Since ALPA came on the property, we have picketed for the first time in our pilot group's history, and we have voted 98% in favor of authorizing a strike, something the independent union never could have dreamed of accomplishing.

And more window dressing being fluffed up to look like substantial gains. WHAT ABOUT THE PAY AND BENEFITS, BUDDY?!

Starting to get the picture? The AirTran pilots are quite happy with their ALPA representation.

Good luck to the JetBlue pilots. I hope to see you wearing ALPA pins very soon. You deserve a binding contract and real representation.

Yes...we all see the picture quite clearly. Your "achievements" are trivial at best.

For the sake of the AirTran pilots....I hope ALPA doesn't let them down, too.

 

[Regul8r]

Well..... perhaps....

If it was insulting.... then perhaps there is some truth....

or.. perhaps one has a low level of self esteem.....

If one acts like a child, they should not be surprised to be treated like one...

and

If one acts ignorant, they should not be surprised to be treated like an idiot....

Or maybe we were getting off topic?

The guy has intentionally (or not....) made logical fallacies about pilots controlling companies and why ALPA is such a failure.... the best way to engage, is simply not to...

How much "control" can you really have if you don't run the company? I keep hearing these feel-good empowering slogans like taking control of your career...but history has proven through bad management that pilots aren't in control of their careers.

Currently ALPA stinks because for the past 9 years being an Air Line Pilot stinks. ALPA is the biggest on the block so it gets the bulls eye. Yet the anti-USAPA crowd has already pointed out ALPA gains and asks when USAPA is going to make some gains for its pilots.... time will tell...

Most pilots want days off and money in their wallet. Until the company or a union does that, they will be jaded, pissed off, angry and bitter... Recall most pilots "just want to fly their trip and go home". These cynics usually want the gains without the responsibility and have had unrealistic expectations in the first place, but they will never be objective enough to consider or admit that...

ALPA has fueled the fire by shamelessly promoting and up-selling its services, a la "taking it back". They have themselves to thank for the anti-ALPA crowd.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

yawn....... anything else?

 

[Regul8r]

What...no smug, condescending lectures from a first generation airline pilot?

Best idea you've had so far!

 

[PCL_128]

Awesome...screw pay raises and more benefits...lets get those grievances brought under control! Where is that on the priority list...like number 9 or 10? Window dressing, my friend.

A few economic pieces??? Like PAY? The chickens haven't hatched and you want to put it up on the score board? Easy there big guy...

And more window dressing being fluffed up to look like substantial gains. WHAT ABOUT THE PAY AND BENEFITS, BUDDY?!

Yes...we all see the picture quite clearly. Your "achievements" are trivial at best.

For the sake of the AirTran pilots....I hope ALPA doesn't let them down, too.

The pay and benefit increases will be achieved very shortly. With the in-house union, we would still be arguing over OJI and hostage benefits. With ALPA, we're now on the cusp of either a consensual agreement or a release to strike. Either way, we're about to see big improvements in pay, benefits, work rules, and job security. The difference from the in-house union is night and day.

 

[pilotyip]

but what about?

The pay and benefit increases will be achieved very shortly. With the in-house union, we would still be arguing over OJI and hostage benefits. With ALPA, we're now on the cusp of either a consensual agreement or a release to strike. Either way, we're about to see big improvements in pay, benefits, work rules, and job security. The difference from the in-house union is night and day.

but what if it makes the company non-competitive?