CAL Management Proposal, Delta's Contract

[samballs]

Having a new contract improves both QOL and pay simultaneously and there should be no confusion here. You goal to be conpensated appropriately for your service is inclusively balanced with that of supporting quality of life concerns.

Don't repeat the mistakes made by UALMEC. 1437 pilots can provide you testimomials on the surrender of scope but if you really wanted 70 seaters, then it should be DIRECTLY tied to CAL mainline growth in the widebody fleet. 2 (70) seaters = (1) 777-300ER PERIOD

Thats how every group fails, that is called giving up scope.....

 

[taxicabdriver]

OK, everyone I am a Rep and I want to say the following:

Take a deep breath and relax.

There is nothing to vote on, this isn't a T/A it's merely the company's first counterproposal. We have an awful long way to go in this negotiating process before we are even close to a contract T/A.

Our MEC is unified and will not vote yes on any T/A to send on to the pilots that doesn't meet our required four cornerstones. Scope/Job Security, Pay, Retirement and Work Rules/Quality of life. In my opinion this proposal falls significantly short of our contractual goals.

The company's latest actions indicating some form of urgency tells me that we hold an awful lot of leverage with regards to preventing the implementation of the Joint Venture A++ agreement that is required to be implemented by years end. They need something from us and all I can say, hey Jeff, the clocks ticking!

Very well said....No on anything with scope relief!!

 

[crj567]

The DAL contract, while a little better post merger, is still a bankruptcy contract thats been modified. Dont fall for their games! Our contract + 1 isnt even close to what ya'lls initial proposal was. Fight strong and do not except a modified post bankruptcy contract.

NEVER SELL SCOPE! WITHOUT IT THE REST OF YOUR CONTRACT IS WORTHLESS!

Why would they EXCEPT any contract? I thought contracts were to be enforced.... Damn-you are a moron!

-What a Looser!

 

[whymeworry?]

Motch, step away from the computer. Go clear your head. NO SCOPE RELIEF. Period. If CAL Mgmt wants any jet larger than 50 seats, they can buy them and have CAL pilots at the controls... at industry-leading rates!!! Any other discussion is futile.

Everyone else, relax. This is the first shot fired in a long battle to come. This joke of a counter-proposal wouldn't even get 1% of the votes. Do your part to email your reps, voice your disgust, and let Capt Miller know you're ready to do whatever it takes. Translation, expect to get released by the NMB, and SPSC strategies to get exercised, if CAL mgmt doesn't wake up and smell the coffee by December. Get your financial houses in order NOW. The belt tightening should've started yesterday.

They cannot and will not break us. We are now more unified than ever... and, thankfully, our MEC is now more formidable than mgmt could have ever anticipated.

 

[General Lee]

Motch, step away from the computer. Go clear your head. NO SCOPE RELIEF. Period. If CAL Mgmt wants any jet larger than 50 seats, they can buy them and have CAL pilots at the controls... at industry-leading rates!!! Any other discussion is futile.

Everyone else, relax. This is the first shot fired in a long battle to come. This joke of a counter-proposal wouldn't even get 1% of the votes. Do your part to email your reps, voice your disgust, and let Capt Miller know you're ready to do whatever it takes. Translation, expect to get released by the NMB, and SPSC strategies to get exercised, if CAL mgmt doesn't wake up and smell the coffee by December. Get your financial houses in order NOW. The belt tightening should've started yesterday.

They cannot and will not break us. We are now more unified than ever... and, thankfully, our MEC is now more formidable than mgmt could have ever anticipated.

This is YOUR time to shine. You have leverage over your management, who obviously want to merge with UAL. Protect scope, gain large pay raises, and get some better work rules. Also, include insurance for newhires for god sake. What you guys do will also help the rest of us when it comes to contract time.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Yuppyguppy]

This is YOUR time to shine. You have leverage over your management, who obviously want to merge with UAL. Protect scope, gain large pay raises, and get some better work rules. Also, include insurance for newhires for god sake. What you guys do will also help the rest of us when it comes to contract time.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Of course we can thank the DAL 1992 MEC for starting the RJ problem to begin with right General?? Of course we can.

 

[General Lee]

Of course we can thank the DAL 1992 MEC for starting the RJ problem to begin with right General?? Of course we can.

Sure you can, and then blame the BK judge for making it worse. You sound really bitter. You need some Exlax and a beer.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jbDC9]

You need some Exlax and a beer.

Sounds like a party right there...

 

[EWR_FO]

and all I can say, hey Jeff, the clocks ticking!

All I can say is, "Hey Jeff.... that screeching sound you are about to hear is the sound of your airline grinding to a halt." I cannot wait to see his condescending little smirk knocked right off his face.

 

[Jetjockey]

Any proposal that allows giving up 1 inch on current scope needs to be a non-starter. I don't care if its a 200% raise! All aircraft above 50 seats, including turbo-props need to be on mainline seniority lists! Plain and simple, NO MORE OUT SOURCING!

This proposal won't even be put to a vote. It will never make it past the MEC.

 

[Kugelblitz]

This has probably been said already, but I don't wish to read 5 pages of .... stuff. I find the counteroffer from management to be a quantum leap ahead of where I thought they would land. Not that I intend to vote for it, but I find their RELATIVE generosity, and I use that term very, very loosely here-but you must consider whom we are referring too, extremely ominous from a merger perspective.

In my mind, there is no doubt that they intend to announce a merger with UAL as soon as they can get this locked up, and their offering a Delta contract to us is proof of that to me. We certainly have Mr. Harvard by the nads here, we should negotiate the h#ll out of this thing and get the moon or simply let it drag out. The longer it takes to resolve this issue the better it is for us, at least if we are trying to protect CAL jobs. Not to mention the improving economy bolsters our case for our proposed pay rates and we will only strengthen our position over time in that regard as things turn around.

 

[General Lee]

This has probably been said already, but I don't wish to read 5 pages of .... stuff. I find the counteroffer from management to be a quantum leap ahead of where I thought they would land. Not that I intend to vote for it, but I find their RELATIVE generosity, and I use that term very, very loosely here-but you must consider whom we are referring too, extremely ominous from a merger perspective.

In my mind, there is no doubt that they intend to announce a merger with UAL as soon as they can get this locked up, and their offering a Delta contract to us is proof of that to me. We certainly have Mr. Harvard by the nads here, we should negotiate the h#ll out of this thing and get the moon or simply let it drag out. The longer it takes to resolve this issue the better it is for us, at least if we are trying to protect CAL jobs. Not to mention the improving economy bolsters our case for our proposed pay rates and we will only strengthen our position over time in that regard as things turn around.

Exactly. Slow things down a bit and make him sweat it out. He will give you whatever it takes eventually, which will be better for you and the UAL guys that merge in. Just watch out for the scope, and make that transfer over to the United side too.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AWACoff]

This has probably been said already, but I don't wish to read 5 pages of .... stuff. I find the counteroffer from management to be a quantum leap ahead of where I thought they would land. Not that I intend to vote for it, but I find their RELATIVE generosity*, and I use that term very, very loosely here-but you must consider whom we are referring too, extremely ominous from a merger perspective.
.

Relatively generous??? CAL offered a pay cut, less retirement, and a likely furlough. Our current contract is better than that steaming pile of manure they presented. Why do people think this is anything but a LOWBALL ridiculous offer?!

*bold emphasis added

 

[UALRATT]

This has probably been said already, but I don't wish to read 5 pages of .... stuff. I find the counteroffer from management to be a quantum leap ahead of where I thought they would land. Not that I intend to vote for it, but I find their RELATIVE generosity, and I use that term very, very loosely here-but you must consider whom we are referring too, extremely ominous from a merger perspective.

In my mind, there is no doubt that they intend to announce a merger with UAL as soon as they can get this locked up, and their offering a Delta contract to us is proof of that to me. We certainly have Mr. Harvard by the nads here, we should negotiate the h#ll out of this thing and get the moon or simply let it drag out. The longer it takes to resolve this issue the better it is for us, at least if we are trying to protect CAL jobs. Not to mention the improving economy bolsters our case for our proposed pay rates and we will only strengthen our position over time in that regard as things turn around.

I make this argument here only to express an opinion on the subject of a merger. A counter point to your argument is that without pilots' approval for a domestic code share then UAL will make it's play for CO. They desperately need something especially with the economy turning around and DAL breathing down their necks. Alliance or merger, one will play out and when it gets down to the 9th hour, without an agreement from the pilots, you will see the merger card played. My prediction? Third quarter 2010...

 

[thor2j]

A counter point to your argument is that without pilots' approval for a domestic code share then UAL will make it's play for CO.

You meant "CAL make it's play for UAL" didn't you?

 

[Shrek]

You meant "CAL make it's play for UAL" didn't you?

No - he didn't.

It would be a merger not a takeover.

 

[motch]

For all the "FI" experts out there,

Has there ever been a merger in recent times (last 25 years) where an airline that had pilots (ALOT!) on furlough has done a successful hostile takeover of another carrier?
UAL trying to take over CAL?!

One of the reasons CAL management threw out the DAL PWA+1 (IMO) is the RJ Scope protection we have when compared to UAL.

For ANY merger to work between CAL & UAL, three things have to be addressed.
1) RJ Flying and Scope
2) Pilots on Furlough
3) Career expectations

All three are important, but the reality is- if a combined CAL/UAL used CAL's scope protection- You would immediately see a halt in UALX flying on many routes, to be replaced by 737/A320 aircraft. Obviously not at the same frequency.. but you can replace 6/7 70 seat RJ flights a day to a location with 2/3 mainline aircraft.
This in itself would require bringing back a large portion of the furloughed pilots!
Then, you look at UAL's work rules at CAL and you find CAL being short of pilots.

But the elephant in the room holding up a merger is CAL pilots scope protect.

There is no way that I will vote YES on any TA that gives away our scope protection~

That being said, someone needs to explain to me how Continental maintains it's presence within the industry for the foreseeable future-
A) Without any aircraft in the 78-120 category flying Continental routes..
B) With those aircraft on our property but flown at a rate so far above industry average?

What I would love to see=
We have a 70-76 aircraft payscale and those aircraft on property and
We have a 90-120 aircraft payscale and those aircraft on property (Category D proposal maybe?!)

 

[AWACoff]

90-120 seat category??? What do you think a 737-500 is?! Motch, stop negotiating in public!!! JHFC! I swear you don't even work at CAL and are just posting flamebait.

 

[UALRATT]

That being said, someone needs to explain to me how Continental maintains it's presence within the industry for the foreseeable future-
A) Without any aircraft in the 78-120 category flying Continental routes..
B) With those aircraft on our property but flown at a rate so far above industry average?

For starters I suggest you try the offices of Mr. Jeff Smisek, Mr. Leon Kinloch, Mr. Dave Hilfman, and Mr. Mark Bergsrud. These folks are paid an awful lot of money to deal with that issue...

 

[Shrek]

90-120 seat category??? What do you think a 737-500 is?! Motch, stop negotiating in public!!! JHFC! I swear you don't even work at CAL and are just posting flamebait.

He is a CAL pilot.

 

[motch]

90-120 seat category??? What do you think a 737-500 is?! Motch, stop negotiating in public!!! JHFC! I swear you don't even work at CAL and are just posting flamebait.

Get your facts straight..

737-300, 124 seats. (Going to be gone soon)
737-500, 114 seats. (Going to be gone in the next few years)

UAL Airbus 319, 120 seats.

That is why we have a category for that aircraft in our proposal.
(Category D Aircraft)
Maybe we should also include the EMB190/195 and C-Series into that.
(Is what I am saying)

We do not have a proposal for anything smaller~

And this site is not "Negotiating" in public. Why are you scared to have discussions about these aircraft?
Stop drinking the 'Hold the Line- All RJ's at mainline at all cost' Kool-Aid.
That horse has left the barn, thanks to ALPA National and other pilot groups signing them away.

How come you won't answer the question I posted... how do we stay competitive against Delta if we are flying a E175/CRJ700 at $164 for 5 yr Captain and $85 for 2 yr FO? Cockpit cost- $249.
Compass- Cockpit cost- $143 (for 18yr Captain/FO!)
Comair- Cockpit cost- $142 (for 18yr Captain/FO!)

The scope language in Delta's PWA is a no vote for me and probably most of the pilots at CAL. But we can't put our heads in the sand and not discuss how we;
A) Secure 70+ seat aircraft at Continental Mainline at a livable wage while
B) Remain competitive with our competition who are also using those aircraft.

 

[motch]

Thanks Shrek..
But believe it or not... I'm spending more time flying with the Guard these days then at CAL~
Sad thing is, I enjoy the actual flying at CAL more than the Guard. But the Guard flying is more rewarding at the end of a flight than CAL.
(You can probably understand why)

It also doesn't hurt that the pay at the Guard is much more than at CAL, and that is sad....

Always
Motch

 

[sleeves]

Motch,
Seriously stop negotiating in public. If you have questions write your reps and the neg. committee.

 

[motch]

Stop being scared..
Last time I looked, this is America and people are allowed to talk out in the open.

 

[sleeves]

Nobody is saying you do not have a right to talk, we are saying that it is not smart to talk. MGT. has enough weapons why do you want to give them more?

 

[HHH]

Stop being scared..
Last time I looked, this is America and people are allowed to talk out in the open.

Motch,
I understand what you are saying regarding staying competitive, etc. BUT, we're dealing with unethical, immoral managers and attorneys who already circumvent black and white issues in our current contract. We shouldn't even think about relaxing scope in anyway with any type of fancy deals (such as the ones that you have suggested). I GUARANTEE if we do that, then these "people" would lawyer their way out of it. JUST KEEP IT SIMPLE - all flying will be done by CAL pilots.

Guess what, our job is to fly and manage the airplane, not to figure out how CAL can remain competitive, etc. We are simply not equipped to do so (i.e. we don't have all the data, plans, etc.). Let Smisek and his entourage do what they are actually being paid for.

FUPM

 

[hockeypilot44]

What does Delta have for Trip/Duty Rigs/ Min Day Pay? Thanks.

For reserves, ZERO Trip/Duty Rigs/ Min Day Pay. For line holders 3.5-1 trip/2-1 duty/5:15 min day but duty periods with DH only do not count (you actually have to fly to get 5:15)

 

[motch]

Triple H, I hear ya...
The sad part is, most pilots in our industry don't work together nor do they have forward vision.

Had pilots thought about the RJ issue back in the day, we wouldn't have the mess we have now. Didn't PanAm have a system where their Pilots flew all their aircraft.. no matter what size?
Where was the ball dropped?

When 9/11 happened and I saw USAir getting rid of their pension, I knew other carrier would follow. ALPA National should have shut the system down right then and there.

Now that some carriers have allowed 76 seat aircraft to be flown under their colors but not their pilots we ALL have to deal with that world.

I would love to see every aircraft flown with a CAL flight number, CAL colors and CAL passengers to be flown by CAL PILOTS.
Not going to happen. (Thanks to ALPA N and Delta of the 90's)

But

There has go to be a way to secure the future growth at CAL and yet survive in the industry as it is today.

There are so many issues tied up with ALL these regional/commuter aircraft, where do we start!
BTW.. we always talk about 50 seat Jets, 76 seat Turboprops, etc...
The other day in Orlando I couldn't help notice a few Beech1900's in Full Continental colors..
Yet no one screams about them stealing flying or being flown at mainline.

Anyway
Off to work, one more week of flying here and then....
Always
Motch

FUPM~DARMA~Shut it Down

 

[SuperFLUF]

I found Contract '97 on the bookshelf and

An additional perspective on the pathetic DAL +$1 counter;
its still 50 cents LESS per hour for a 12 yr 737 Capt than contract 97 pay rates.

PLUS the 6hr drop in pay for reserves.

We want our loan paid back in FULL plus interest.

 

[motch]

Sounds good...
I also think we should look at Delta's pre bankruptcy PWA and add that into the mix as well.

Their current PWA is a post bankruptcy concessionary contract and doesn't hold water when looking forward and things are getting better.
That being said, there are a few things in there that would be nice to have~
(Which I believe is in our proposal to the company anyway)

Always
motch