CAL Management Proposal, Delta's Contract

[JOPILOT]

I'll take the bet that in 18 months from now.. I'm either walking a Picket line or will have gotten a much better contract.

This will not pass.

Motch

FUPM~DARMA~Shut it Down

Cool, I wish you guys luck...have to bet a virtual Sam Adams Winter Lager? Seriously, good luck and voter down! JP

 

[motch]

My right as an American..
I will say what I (and only I) think-

As far as USAir losing their E175's, I don't know what is in their contract and what allowed management to do that. But I would expect ALPA to look at that and make sure that language is in a CBA to prevent that from happening anywhere else.

And I'm not negotiating.. I'm voicing an opinion of ONE of the things that I would be willing to accept.. as long as everything else is met.

 

[motch]

Motch,

That is a TERRIBLE idea. All they have to do is get them on property. Once that happens, all hell breaks loose.

"Sorry, guys fuel is starting to rise, Jeff needs a raise, the economy hasn't recovered enough, insert your own lame excuse....."

Look at USAIRWAYS, those large RJ's were flown by furloughed US air pilots FOR A WHILE until management decided to let CHQ fly them instead.

Don't sell yourself (and me) short. NO SCOPE RELIEF. Don't be a sucker with those lame provisions you listed. Management will probably offer something just like it. DONT FALL FOR IT. They will just change them down the road, and you will be on the street because of it.

Why can't management do that now with the 737's?
Cause of language in our CBA.

All I'm saying is that I would have been open to look at an agreement IF it had language that I mentioned.
At some point, the hole between the 76 TP's flown at Continental Conection (Express) and the smallest 737's we have (@120 seats?) will have to be filled.

To say that we, and only we.. should be the only legacy carrier flying a 70-76 seat RJ when every other legacy/Major has already give them away is unrealistic. Unless of course ALPA National decided to make a stand finally and plans to also shut down the other Majors over this issue.

Every single aircraft flying a passenger who paid for Continental should be flown on an aircraft with only the words Continental on the side, and with Continental pilots in the cockpit. My opinion.

I will probably never live to see it happen though~

Oh, and I'd still be voting NO on this proposal if it came out to vote. But I know it will not. But now the next battle will start-
The company will go to the other employee groups and the media stating that our pilots are unreasonable because they won't accept an agreement that a fellow pilot group said was acceptable. ALPA National had better be ready to counter this~

Motch

PS> The 76 seat thing is probably being done to line us up with UAL. Hopefully UAL and DAL will also decide to go on strike with us next year over this MAJOR issue!

FUPM~DARMA~Shut it Down

 

[Hamfighter]

Don't accept a lower reserve guarantee, either. That 70 hour guarantee is rough. Delta is very efficient at cutting you off just before getting there.
And, on reserve, a green slip is added on top of guarantee, but at the regular rate. I've gotten maybe three in three years.
I bet there's a lot of us that will gladly march with you guys any time, anywhere.

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

My right as an American..
I will say what I (and only I) think-

As far as USAir losing their E175's, I don't know what is in their contract and what allowed management to do that. But I would expect ALPA to look at that and make sure that language is in a CBA to prevent that from happening anywhere else.

And I'm not negotiating.. I'm voicing an opinion of ONE of the things that I would be willing to accept.. as long as everything else is met.

Well, there you have it, folks. Here is a junior CAL pilot willing to sell out on scope as long as everything else is met. He also stated that he is going to email his rep about his willingness to cave on scope. If the fact that junior pilots among our ranks (we already know a certain CAL pilot demographic doesn't care about scope and job protections) is ready to give up scope for a raise scares the crap out of you, EMAIL YOUR REPS and tell them you will never budge on scope. There are fools among us, we need to drown out their voices.

 

[motch]

BTW-
I would also look at something along the lines of..
CAL Pilots fly the 70-76 seat Jet aircraft while
Connection Pilots fly the 70-76 seat Turbo Prop aircraft as long as
it's a one for one deal, and any reduction in pilots also brings about a reduction in 70-76 seat turbo prop aircraft.

Some mentioned on another thread that Delta was 1000 pilots fat this past year, but that because of language in their CBA, the flow back agreement would cost MORE than keeping them on property.

Goes to show you that you CAN have certain language in a CBA that protects~

 

[motch]

Well, there you have it, folks. Here is a junior CAL pilot willing to sell out on scope as long as everything else is met. He also stated that he is going to email his rep about his willingness to cave on scope. If the fact that junior pilots among our ranks (we already know a certain CAL pilot demographic doesn't care about scope and job protections) is ready to give up scope for a raise scares the crap out of you, EMAIL YOUR REPS and tell them you will never budge on scope. There are fools among us.

Dude, you're a tool-
Come talk to me at a Union meeting and get my opinion where I can state all my points.
I have already stated that this deal is a no go.
My LEC knows where I stand on this point.

At my last job (A Regional) I was VERY Vocal about not wanting larger jets than the 50 seaters at the regionals. I was a minority.

Now I'm at CAL and we are the only ones with decent scope (Aircraft size) but you explain to me what we as CAL pilots do to ensure we fly them and we hold the line and we stay as competitive as the other carriers who have given it away.
it seems only Delta gave them away but has some language that has protected the amount of pilots on property.
But UAL and USAirways/America West gave them away and also had no protection.
AA has a small amount of Large RJ's but I do not know their protections, if any. They do have a ton of guys (and gals) on the street but that's not because of larger RJ's (aka UAL) but because of the nightmare TWA merger.

You gonna walk side by side with me next year when we are on strike?
You putting a couple of hundred dollars away every month for your strike fund?
If the answer is yes to both- See ya then~

 

[RSRVWINDSURFR]

To say that we, and only we.. should be the only legacy carrier flying a 70-76 seat RJ when every other legacy/Major has already give them away is unrealistic.

Every single aircraft flying a passenger who paid for Continental should be flown on an aircraft with only the words Continental on the side, and with Continental pilots in the cockpit.

Make up your mind already. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Oh, and why is it so unrealistic? We've been surviving just fine without 75+ seat RJ's thus far, what makes you thing we just HAVE to have them?

Also, you do realize Jetblue flies E190's at mainline rates don't you? E190's and 170's and 175's are the same basic airplane. If CAL management wants them so bad, they can have CAL pilots fly them.

As far as walking the picket line, I was ready yesterday. The number one biggest reason I would go on strike? A change in SCOPE.
I am not one to come on to F.I. and rant--I'm mostly a lurker, but I will not stay silent on this issue-it's that important. If you think I'm a tool for being vocal about protecting MY job, oh well.

 

[nimtz]

OH NO! 70 hours RES pay is a PAY CUT for SEAN ROTH! Help us shrewd real estate mogul. You must get in contact with your 'super special club' friend IAH captains and stop this from occurring! Like it or not the CAL pilots need Sean more then ever...

 

[motch]

I'm asking questions out of both sides of my mouth to solicit answers and opinions.
I have already posted (a while ago) that I would expect the E190/195's to be on our ticket. At the time, I had a payscale (minimum) in mind based on JB's old contract. That is now out the window since they have made a few gains.
Our recent proposal had 4 payscales, I would imagine that the lowest would be for a 76-125 seat aircraft.

As far as "we've been just surviving fine" till now. We were also giving away food as the only carrier to do so. And losing revenue when compared to the competetion.

There are times when you buck the trend from what everyone else is doing.. but if everyone else is doing something to bring in revenue and we hold our ground thinking it doesn't matter, only to find out it does, it's time to change.

Again- and I'm gonna keep repeating this point.
I will not cave on Scope (aircraft size) when it comes to the 70-76 seat Jet aircraft as compared to what has happened at UAL, DAL and USAirways.
At the same time, I will be willing to look at what they (management) have to offer.
Keep in mind, I will also be watching what our competition is doing and what our potential merger partner is doing.

I would love nothing more that to see a Continental Passenger purchase a ticket on us and be flown on a Continental Aircraft flown by Continental Pilots. No matter what the size and what destination.
But explain to me how that is possible now a days?


The tool comment was because you said I was selling out. I will leave this industry before I sell out. I actually have other options, and therefor am not afraid to watch this place shut down if management will not treat me, and my fellow workers, with the Dignity and Respect we deserve.

Always
Motch

FUPM~DARMA~Shut it down

 

[motch]

The difference in min guarantee is definitely something that needs to be looked at.
You can almost see where Delta management does that to cover the reduced flying in the slow months and then works it's pilots more in the heavy months.

Unlike CAL, where we work the pilot group to death in the heavy months and then Furlough (or at least threaten) to Furlough in the slow months.

Any chance Delta pilots can post what their pilots W-2's look like and also the amount of hours flown/worked?
Do you guys average alot (of pay credit!) over the heavy months and then just the 65/70 hours in the lean months?

As someone posted earlier- a CAL pilot (737 Reserve 12yr pay) would bring home almost $7200 less in one year based on this proposal. But he would also be working 72 hours less for the year.

Brings up the point, what's good for one pilot group may not be good for another.
Also.. the $7200 does not take into consideration the $6 an hour flown Internationally, nor the higher PerDiem.

Sounds to me, we need to tell our management we will look at Delta PRE BANKRUPTCY work agreement and then talk!

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

What a great offer!

I am getting all misty-eyed, just reading the outpouring of generosity from CAL management!

Although they offer even less that what I would have offered if I were still in charge, it is still lavish considering today's economy.

Also, the offer to outsource much of CAL mainline to RJs is proof of management's benevolence and altruism.

Vote YES!

 

[Paul R. Smith]

No personal offense to the DAL pilot group but no.
The rates are hardly a raise. NO
DAL guys get less vacation, and are paid less for it. OKAY thats just one thing but Hell NO!!!
Scope Relief? ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME???
Sounds like mgmt is asking for concessions again.

NO.

I want the DAL work rules that would require an additional 448 pilots but with better vacation than we currently have, not worse. Add No RJ Scope relief. I have too many "intent to furlough" letters right now as it is. And I also think we should insist on longevity for those on furlough.

I think mgmt should read our econ proposal a little closer

 

[Instigator]

Motch,

I don't have the Delta contract. Yesterday you said this:

You are right, in your case.. a 737 reserve pilot would be making $598 less a month than our current contract BUT he is also working 6 hours less.

You said basically the same thing today:

As someone posted earlier- a CAL pilot (737 Reserve 12yr pay) would bring home almost $7200 less in one year based on this proposal. But he would also be working 72 hours less for the year.

Does a Delta pilot sit reserve for fewer hours for their guarantee than a CAL pilot?

 

[nwaf16dude]

Where exactly is a current pay table for Delta?


Cheers

The only thing you need to know about the Delta pay scale is...

It's not enough to make you cave on scope!

 

[CRJ's suck]

I hope the CAL pilots do not give on scope for a little carrot in front of them. I work for Continental (acft. mx not pilot) but if you give on scope, a majority of the 737's that come into my base now would surely go to the large regional jets. If it does happen, guess i'll say bye bye to Continental. Hold the line guys.

 

[Bobby Orr 4]

From airline pilot central:
12 year SWA CA 737NG/300/500 $206/hour

CAL's proposal should be nothing less than $207/hr and adjust up and down for fleet type.

 

[jrcpilot]

I hope that the CAL MEC and pilos realize that our Contract here at DL is a Bankruptcy contract and they can do a lot better and should demand a lot better. Its time we all try and raise the bar to pre-Bankruptcy levels regardless what property we are at.

 

[UALRATT]

SuperFluf..


Now the question becomes, what is more important. QoL or Pay?

Having a new contract improves both QOL and pay simultaneously and there should be no confusion here. You goal to be conpensated appropriately for your service is inclusively balanced with that of supporting quality of life concerns.

Don't repeat the mistakes made by UALMEC. 1437 pilots can provide you testimomials on the surrender of scope but if you really wanted 70 seaters, then it should be DIRECTLY tied to CAL mainline growth in the widebody fleet. 2 (70) seaters = (1) 777-300ER PERIOD

 

[Superpilot92]

i hope that the cal mec and pilos realize that our contract here at dl is a bankruptcy contract and they can do a lot better and should demand a lot better. Its time we all try and raise the bar to pre-bankruptcy levels regardless what property we are at.

+1 .