IS SWAPA the "New" USAPA???? Arrogance abound!

[General Lee]

Really, both of these groups demanded unrealistic outcomes. It just amazes me. No, there shouldn't be DOH or even full relative mix, but a pure staple is just ridiculous. Why don't you let neutrals (arbitrators) figure it out? I know why: You are AFRAID of the outcome. Let people on the outside determine what is fair. Gary Kelly says "PLEASE, Ya'll. Just do it...." Nah, it won't happen, the SWA guys won't allow it.... If so, let Republic come around and beat SWA in DEN at their own game.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Really?

I personally like how they are protecting their own.

Currently it is SWAPA 2 Company 0.

 

[General Lee]

Really?

I personally like how they are protecting their own.

Currently it is SWAPA 2 Company 0.

So, why didn't we go for a staple for the NWA guys? Not really the same, but I guess you would have wanted that? I know F9 isn't the same size company as SWA, nor has the financials, but they do give SWA something. If you demand a staple, then that shows complete arrogance. I know SWA did that with Morris Air, which was a much younger company without the history. The fact is you should show some respect, or get none in return. It doesn't mean you have to give away the World, but you should show some flexibility. If everyone is going to gain, then allow it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[firstthird]

Really, both of these groups demanded unrealistic outcomes. It just amazes me. No, there shouldn't be DOH or even full relative mix, but a pure staple is just ridiculous. Why don't you let neutrals (arbitrators) figure it out? I know why: You are AFRAID of the outcome. Let people on the outside determine what is fair. Gary Kelly says "PLEASE, Ya'll. Just do it...." Nah, it won't happen, the SWA guys won't allow it.... If so, let Republic come around and beat SWA in DEN at their own game.


Bye Bye--General Lee

so, how much credit do you guys give NWA because you were all 'artificially senior' due to all your early buyouts?

you say I don't know what I'm talking about, hey, you're correct. I say you don't know what you're talking about WRT WN/F9.

how different were your pay scales NWA/DAL before DAL got the pre-agreement boost to put you much higher than you were? were your FOs making as much as their captains? had one of your carriers been making money for 37 years while one is in bankruptcy and UNABLE to get exit financing?

it is called career expectations. I'm happy that SWAPA is acting to protect ALL SWA pilots and not just the senior ones.

 

[FDJ2]

Really?

I personally like how they are protecting their own.

Currently it is SWAPA 2 Company 0.

They do their pilots no good when they lose credibility. If they end up in arbitration and their position is to staple an A320/19 pilot group to the bottom of a 737 pilot group they will have their collective arses handed to them. I guess the next stunt would then be to vote SWAPA off the property in a desperate attempt to avoid implementing the integrated seniority list.

This merger could bring growth opportunities to SWA, which translates into more upward mobility for SWA first officers.

 

[Red Baron]

Really, both of these groups demanded unrealistic outcomes. It just amazes me. No, there shouldn't be DOH or even full relative mix, but a pure staple is just ridiculous. Why don't you let neutrals (arbitrators) figure it out? I know why: You are AFRAID of the outcome. Let people on the outside determine what is fair. Gary Kelly says "PLEASE, Ya'll. Just do it...." Nah, it won't happen, the SWA guys won't allow it.... If so, let Republic come around and beat SWA in DEN at their own game.


Bye Bye--General Lee

What I am reading, the auction goes through August 17th. Thanks for your advice and opinions, but we will let the parties involved work it out. We will see what happens. SWAPA works for us.




UPDATE 2-Southwest, Frontier pilots at impasse- union

Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:02pm EDT


* Southwest union ready to bargain further
* Union to put Frontier pilots at bottom of seniority list
* Southwest seeking extension in bankruptcy court-union (Recasts; Adds comment from SWAPA president, company spokesman)
NEW YORK, Aug 13 (Reuters) - Seniority was a major sticking point during labor talks between pilots for Southwest Airlines (LUV.N) and Frontier Airlines Holdings Inc (FRNTQ.PK) Wednesday night, the head of Southwest's union said on Thursday.
The talks hit an impasse at 11:15 p.m. CT last night in Dallas and union officials are prepared to resume talks today and through the weekend if necessary, said Carl Kuwitzky, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association.
Southwest's union offered to place Frontier's 700 pilots at the bottom of their pilot seniority master list.
"We're not through bargaining," he said.
In an e-mail sent to pilots last night, the union said Southwest will petition the bankruptcy court Thursday for an extension on its final bid with Frontier. Kuwitzky said labor issues were not the only reason for the company's request.
An auction for Frontier in bankruptcy court is slated for Thursday. Earlier this week, Southwest submitted a $170 million offer for the bankrupt carrier, in an effort to trump a rival bid by Republic Airways Holdings Inc (RJET.O) for $108.75 million. [ID:N10540482]
"We can confirm that SWA is still a participant in the process," Southwest spokesmen Brad Hawkins said in an e-mail. "The process allows for the auction to continue through August 17, if needed."
The head of the Frontier Airline Pilots' Association said he was not available to comment.
"We think we've offered a very fair proposal that protects their jobs first and foremost, their pay and domicile rights," Kuwitzky said. "I think they have a much brighter future with Southwest than they do under Republic."
Kuwitzky also said SWAPA has started talks with pilots with Frontier's Lynx Aviation unit and said his union would look to strike a similar deal with them.
A Frontier acquisition would help Southwest boost its presence in the U.S. and allow it to explore international routes. Still, during a conference call with reporters this week, Southwest executives said they did not want to proceed with the merger without employee support.
(Reporting by Deepa Seetharaman; Editing by Derek Caney)

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

Trying to stir the pot a little there General?


SLC

 

[johnsonrod]

You SWA pilots are really showing your arrogant side. I guess the F9 pilots should carry your bags and shine your shoes while they're at it - but they will be pay protected so I guess that's OK...

Perhaps all you former Top Gun pilots should watch this video:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/8afa50b440/iceman-the-later-years-from-nino

 

[FDJ2]

Southwest's union offered to place Frontier's 700 pilots at the bottom of their pilot seniority master list.
"We're not through bargaining," he said.

That's the understatement of the year. Offer them a staple and then state that you're not done bargaining.

Pushing the auction back to get an agreement shows how interested SWA is in this transaction. Ultimately they'll probably press forward with or without the pilots coming to an agrement.

Perhaps it's best for all involved to lock in some contractual gains with a JCBA and a seniority integration process with a date certain integrated list by either DCC or SOC.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Really, both of these groups demanded unrealistic outcomes. It just amazes me. No, there shouldn't be DOH or even full relative mix, but a pure staple is just ridiculous. Why don't you let neutrals (arbitrators) figure it out? I know why: You are AFRAID of the outcome. Let people on the outside determine what is fair. Gary Kelly says "PLEASE, Ya'll. Just do it...." Nah, it won't happen, the SWA guys won't allow it.... If so, let Republic come around and beat SWA in DEN at their own game.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Thanks for the opinion, General...but like the poster ahead said, SWAPA works for me...and I think we just step back and let our M&A Committee do their job...and for the record, I think our SWAPA M&A Comitee is doing a wonderful job working hard to protect the interests of the SWAPA Pilots first.

Just relax and withold comments until this is all over....and it ain't over yet.

 

[HAL]

I don't know why it hasn't been brought up here before, but both the WN and F9 guys are pi$$'n in the wind when they try to position themselves in this fight.

If you don't know, in the December 2007 FAA reauthorization bill, there was in inclusion that said essentially - 'If two merging pilot groups are represented by the same union, the union rules apply. If the pilot groups are from different unions, the formula of the allegheny-mohawk merger must apply'. No matter how much moaning and posturing the two sides here go though, they have to follow the A/M rules. That means a 'fair and equitable' merger - not stapling, not 'hiring when available', and not DOH.

This part of the FAA reauthorization was somewhat overlooked at the time because of the President also signing the age 65 rule at the same time (December 2007). But it was introduced by Senator McKascill (sp?) from Missouri as part of the bill in response to the mergers at TWA/AA and US/AWA. So any new mergers from that point forward, including a possible WN/F9 merger, will be legally constrained to follow the Allegheny/Mohawk rules. So sorry southwest guys, there will be no stapling this time.

HAL

 

[NOZ]

I guess the real question is: Is General Lee the new "Tanker Clown"???

 

[Mikes Apartment]

Really, both of these groups demanded unrealistic outcomes. It just amazes me. No, there shouldn't be DOH or even full relative mix, but a pure staple is just ridiculous. Why don't you let neutrals (arbitrators) figure it out? I know why: You are AFRAID of the outcome. Let people on the outside determine what is fair. Gary Kelly says "PLEASE, Ya'll. Just do it...." Nah, it won't happen, the SWA guys won't allow it.... If so, let Republic come around and beat SWA in DEN at their own game.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm no big fan of Southwest Airlines but I like SWAPA protecting junior SWA pilots from possible negative outcomes from this. No current SWA pilot should be furloughed as a result of this purchase/merger.

 

[firstthird]

I don't know why it hasn't been brought up here before, but both the WN and F9 guys are pi$$'n in the wind when they try to position themselves in this fight.

If you don't know, in the December 2007 FAA reauthorization bill, there was in inclusion that said essentially - 'If two merging pilot groups are represented by the same union, the union rules apply. If the pilot groups are from different unions, the formula of the allegheny-mohawk merger must apply'. No matter how much moaning and posturing the two sides here go though, they have to follow the A/M rules. That means a 'fair and equitable' merger - not stapling, not 'hiring when available', and not DOH.

This part of the FAA reauthorization was somewhat overlooked at the time because of the President also signing the age 65 rule at the same time (December 2007). But it was introduced by Senator McKascill (sp?) from Missouri as part of the bill in response to the mergers at TWA/AA and US/AWA. So any new mergers from that point forward, including a possible WN/F9 merger, will be legally constrained to follow the Allegheny/Mohawk rules. So sorry southwest guys, there will be no stapling this time.

HAL

HAL,

we're all quite aware of M/B (McCaskill/Bond) and its ramifications. which is why our management put in the contingency to get labor agreements BEFORE we commit to buy more than 50%.

firstthird

p.s. it is problematic that M/B hasn't been litigated yet and I hope we aren't the test case.

p.p.s. a staple could be considered 'fair and equitable' depending on the the two carriers and the 'career expectations' of their pilots as determined by an arbitrator. I think we might, keyword might, be okay in arbitration but it is a complete gamble and SWA pilots are happy where we are and how we are. we don't want this, our management does.

 

[johnsonrod]

I don't know why it hasn't been brought up here before, but both the WN and F9 guys are pi$$'n in the wind when they try to position themselves in this fight.

If you don't know, in the December 2007 FAA reauthorization bill, there was in inclusion that said essentially - 'If two merging pilot groups are represented by the same union, the union rules apply. If the pilot groups are from different unions, the formula of the allegheny-mohawk merger must apply'. No matter how much moaning and posturing the two sides here go though, they have to follow the A/M rules. That means a 'fair and equitable' merger - not stapling, not 'hiring when available', and not DOH.

This part of the FAA reauthorization was somewhat overlooked at the time because of the President also signing the age 65 rule at the same time (December 2007). But it was introduced by Senator McKascill (sp?) from Missouri as part of the bill in response to the mergers at TWA/AA and US/AWA. So any new mergers from that point forward, including a possible WN/F9 merger, will be legally constrained to follow the Allegheny/Mohawk rules. So sorry southwest guys, there will be no stapling this time.

HAL

Does that apply to an asset sale out of bankruptcy? That's the question... This is not a merger, per se. I still think the F9 pilots are being shafted and treated unfairly (I think some integration formula should be used)...

 

[General Lee]

Trying to stir the pot a little there General?


SLC

Of course I am trying to stir the pot, that is what I do. But, I also think this is soooo one sided. Really, it is ridiculous, and the F9 pilots do NOT deserve a staple for what their mangement has done to them. That is key. Now, I don't think they should be thrown in relative seniority, but something inbetween, something that gives them SOME CREDIT for longevity. Now the Lynx guys, you can staple them and give everyone some protection. Even they would like that....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

They do their pilots no good when they lose credibility. If they end up in arbitration and their position is to staple an A320/19 pilot group to the bottom of a 737 pilot group they will have their collective arses handed to them. I guess the next stunt would then be to vote SWAPA off the property in a desperate attempt to avoid implementing the integrated seniority list.

This merger could bring growth opportunities to SWA, which translates into more upward mobility for SWA first officers.

FDJ, I am not talking about a staple, I am talking about the fact that they are playing hard ball with management. I would assume that their MEC knows that a staple is just plain BS. It is all part of the company pressuring them in to an 11 hr deal and SWAPA waiting until they are in the 11th hour and 59th minute and 45 seconds to make sure they are getting the best deal. Management came to them and asked to take a major clause out of the offer. I think that SWAPA should get something in return for that. IMHO that is what they are doing.

 

[trip]

Really, both of these groups demanded unrealistic outcomes. It just amazes me. No, there shouldn't be DOH or even full relative mix, but a pure staple is just ridiculous. Why don't you let neutrals (arbitrators) figure it out? I know why: You are AFRAID of the outcome. Let people on the outside determine what is fair. Gary Kelly says "PLEASE, Ya'll. Just do it...." Nah, it won't happen, the SWA guys won't allow it.... If so, let Republic come around and beat SWA in DEN at their own game.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Every now and then GL says something sensible! I couldn't agree more.

 

[shagadelic]

General,
Let me get this straight, if DALPA were in SWAPAs shoes, you are saying you would gladly merge them in to Captain spots? Somehow I think not... although they wouldn't get near the pay bump becoming Delta Captains that they would at SWA. I guess it wouldn't be such a windfall after all.

 

[kc81900]

Any integration on the F9 pilots would be a windfall. They would obtain pay and seniority benefits while SWA pilots gain nothing and actually lose ground.

F9 Fo's going to SWA pay rates and F9 captains getting pay protections is a benefit for them ( F9) a staple to our list is a loss for F9. They gain in one area and lose in another. Fair and equitable thats to be debated i for one think that is fair and equitable.

What would the F9 pilots get under republic merger??? A319/20 flying at RJ pay rates. List integration at what formula?? More F9 losses under that scenario than with WN.

 

[Porch]

You SWA pilots are really showing your arrogant side. I guess the F9 pilots should carry your bags and shine your shoes while they're at it - but they will be pay protected so I guess that's OK...[/URL]

Where's the shoe shine wax & my gloves? I'd rather do that than work for republic... at least I'll be able to afford to pay my mortgage and feed my family.

 

[johnsonrod]

Where's the shoe shine wax & my gloves? I'd rather do that than work for republic... at least I'll be able to afford to pay my mortgage and feed my family.

I doubt you ever expected to get rich as a pilot (and if you did you were misguided). If you want to just focus on money leave aviation and go to Law School....

 

[flyingitalian]

Make sure you know that this offer is not one sided. F9 was offered base protection in DEN (airbus now and all new 737 fo slots) FOREVER. They would be on the bottom of the mastoer seniority list, but pay protected to pre-concessionary rates and given credit for their longevity for vacation and pay rates. The top F9 pilot would get a raise, on the bottom of the list as a captain on the 320 in DEN and even as an FO on the 737. Remember your paycheck is not just your hourly rate. We can easily fly 100 trips a month without really breaking a sweat. What was the top paying F9 captain W2 last year? Im willing to bet he would make more money here right out of the shoot.

And General, are you kidding me? What if Delta bought F9, what would your tune be then?

 

[Porch]

I doubt you ever expected to get rich as a pilot (and if you did you were misguided). If you want to just focus on money leave aviation and go to Law School....

I'm already rich bro, I've made my $$ elsewhere... its not the money to me, but it is to many in the F9 group. How about this: If you want to be a rich pilot, go work for WN. If you prefer to stay broke, toss out your resume and press on with Rep. I prefer to work for a professional carrier and cushion my nest egg... I've worked for regionals and don't want to do it again. Thanks for your advice, in advance.

 

[shagadelic]

I doubt you ever expected to get rich as a pilot (and if you did you were misguided). If you want to just focus on money leave aviation and go to Law School....

Actually when I was in high school I read a career book that showed how much major airline pilots made, how much they worked, and what they did. I thought, man that would be cool to fly jets and earn that kind of coin. I was comparing that to a doctor, and thought the doctor route was longer, I would work harder with longer hours, and maybe not have the quality of life. I saw myself making the bucks then, and did what I needed to to make it happen. My life is not flying jets, it's doing things with my family and enjoying my time off. This career enables me to do that, and as an added benefit, it's not a half bad way to earn a living.

I certainly wouldn't have done it for less, and would have chosen another career if I didn't reasonably expect to make what I had researched.

Though it's not politically correct, if you aren't factoring what you will make when you are figuring out what you want to do in life, you may end up with some big regrets later in life when you discover that your "passion", in the end, is just a job.

 

[General Lee]

General,
Let me get this straight, if DALPA were in SWAPAs shoes, you are saying you would gladly merge them in to Captain spots? Somehow I think not... although they wouldn't get near the pay bump becoming Delta Captains that they would at SWA. I guess it wouldn't be such a windfall after all.

Nope. I actually suggested to GUP Driver that we start at the half way point (top half are Captains) and then go with a ratio DOWNWARDs. Maybe 1 for 5---whatever. It would give the senior F9 guys credit for their own longevity, and eventually they would be Captains again soon. You don't want to "poop" on guys that you will be sharing the crewroom or cockpits with. That is what a staple seems like.

And, again you are acting unbelievably cocky. Guess what sport? Your pay rates are THANKS TO US at DL. We brought your rates up with our own pay rate jump in 2000. Just because our management decided to run our company into BK doesn't mean it was our fault at all. You should know that---but instead you have a cocky attitude---typical of most of you guys. (not all) You get really mad when people don't want to do what you do, which is multiple leg days with 25 minute turns, on the same plane, forever..... sounds just great, and incredibly boring. But hey, keep telling yourself that each time you land in ELP.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[firstthird]

You get really mad when people don't want to do what you do, which is multiple leg days with 25 minute turns, on the same plane, forever..... sounds just great, and incredibly boring. But hey, keep telling yourself that each time you land in ELP.

seems like you are the one that has a problem with what we do, whatever. maybe one day we'll get some big planes and fly international, then we can hang out with you in Nairobi.

 

[General Lee]

Make sure you know that this offer is not one sided. F9 was offered base protection in DEN (airbus now and all new 737 fo slots) FOREVER. They would be on the bottom of the mastoer seniority list, but pay protected to pre-concessionary rates and given credit for their longevity for vacation and pay rates. The top F9 pilot would get a raise, on the bottom of the list as a captain on the 320 in DEN and even as an FO on the 737. Remember your paycheck is not just your hourly rate. We can easily fly 100 trips a month without really breaking a sweat. What was the top paying F9 captain W2 last year? Im willing to bet he would make more money here right out of the shoot.

And General, are you kidding me? What if Delta bought F9, what would your tune be then?

If Delta bought F9 (or maybe Alaska coming up here), I would still allow it to be fair. Eventually you are going to run into incredible animosity, which would mean constant complaining. Since F9 is not going to liquidate, you can't give them the worst case scenario---which is a staple. You can't, unless you are a bunch of cocky jackholes. Our merger with NWA wasn't perfect, but it was done fairly with 3 neutrals (arbitrators), and they came up with a solution. The NWA guys got 30% raises immediately (more when they move from the DC9 to the 757/767), got better work rules, and kept their frozen pensions (what we don't have). So, they may have taken a small hit on the SLI, but they did better in every other category. That is the way it goes, but in the end we all can agree that not everyone got what they wanted, which means it was somewhat fair, and we can all wave at eachother as we taxi by. I can't even wave at you guys because you guys are taxiing so fast......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

seems like you are the one that has a problem with what we do, whatever. maybe one day we'll get some big planes and fly international, then we can hang out with you in Nairobi.

You mean Sydney? How about Rome? I am too senior to have to go to Nairobi (actually we don't fly there yet). You guys will have to get some INTL experience first before you "dream" of going anywhere near Nairobi. How about Canada first? Can you convince your management that you are good enough? How about Mexico? They are actually pretty nice down there most of the time. I bet you could do it. Let the F9 guys show you how, fairly.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Any integration on the F9 pilots would be a windfall. They would obtain pay and seniority benefits while SWA pilots gain nothing and actually lose ground.

F9 Fo's going to SWA pay rates and F9 captains getting pay protections is a benefit for them ( F9) a staple to our list is a loss for F9. They gain in one area and lose in another. Fair and equitable thats to be debated i for one think that is fair and equitable.

What would the F9 pilots get under republic merger??? A319/20 flying at RJ pay rates. List integration at what formula?? More F9 losses under that scenario than with WN.

So, your company would not get a windfall for routes/gates (ATL), slots (DCA and more LGA), and dominance at DEN? It's all about you, and not about your company being stronger in the future...... I am glad you are not an arbitrator. Why again would Gary Kelly offer $60 million more than Republic for the same deal? Hmmmm, maybe he knows something you don't. I kinda hope Republic wins the auction, makes F9 stronger (they do have the money), and then repeatedly beats you over the head in DEN. The finger will always be pointed back at YOU.


Bye Bye--General Lee