IS SWAPA the "New" USAPA???? Arrogance abound!

[The Prussian]

Sorry to intrude, but more details for you Piker:

We just heard from SWAPA pres. The reason FAPA couldn't make it for the 1700 call was because he was busy meeting with creditors. Their (F9)team said no go till 1930 without the boss. And deadline at 2400. Doesn't seem like he/FAPA even wanted the deal, or were they just calling Gary Kelly's bluff or did FAPA guy get sold by creditors he just met with that Republic deal was better? Who knows, but what is the job of a union president - to meet with corporate creditors at a crucial time for his membership, or to look out for his constituents at a crucial time? I bet many F9 guys feel let down. But just ASSkin Piker, what do you think the priority of a union president should be? Management, shareholders, creditors or membership?

Lot's of "teaching moments" going on around here lately...all the way up to the President...

 

[redflyer65]

General your hilarious. Furlough protection for the junior guys. I like it. You should run for President.

Gary saw an opportunity to get F9 at an attractive price no doubt, but he refused to do it if the labor agreement for the Southwest Pilots wasn't good enough, and it wasn't. Not even close. He could have forced anything he wanted upon us. Would Dick Anderson do that for your most junior guys?

I have friends at Delta. I hope you don't furlough. But if they do, then we'll revisit your idiotic RJ scope relief to save furlough BS. Nice try, maybe you guys will learn the RJ Scope Management Scheme after the 36th time!

 

[Benjamin Dover]

General your hilarious. Furlough protection for the junior guys. I like it. You should run for President.

Gary saw an opportunity to get F9 at an attractive price no doubt, but he refused to do it if the labor agreement for the Southwest Pilots wasn't good enough, and it wasn't. Not even close. He could have forced anything he wanted upon us. Would Dick Anderson do that for your most junior guys?

I have friends at Delta. I hope you don't furlough. But if they do, then we'll revisit your idiotic RJ scope relief to save furlough BS. Nice try, maybe you guys will learn the RJ Scope Management Scheme after the 36th time!

Sorry to grab your quote Red, but easier...

You do know General is on meds right? He forgets all his dribs about greedy NW guys who should have stfu and love the deal at DAL, and Africa is all the rage, and, etc., etc.

Now, at this point GL generally chimes in to say how childish, dumba$$ or whatever his latest qualifier is for our posts slamming him. But he somehow thinks it's "just us guys joshing on FI" for all his other threads he starts, but his skin a little more thin for incoming action.

 

[redflyer65]

You're right Ben. He can't take the honest truth when it comes his way.

I need another beer.

 

[FlyinPiker]

Sorry to intrude, but more details for you Piker:

We just heard from SWAPA pres. The reason FAPA couldn't make it for the 1700 call was because he was busy meeting with creditors. Their (F9)team said no go till 1930 without the boss. And deadline at 2400. Doesn't seem like he/FAPA even wanted the deal, or were they just calling Gary Kelly's bluff or did FAPA guy get sold by creditors he just met with that Republic deal was better? Who knows, but what is the job of a union president - to meet with corporate creditors at a crucial time for his membership, or to look out for his constituents at a crucial time? I bet many F9 guys feel let down. But just ASSkin Piker, what do you think the priority of a union president should be? Management, shareholders, creditors or membership?

Uhh yeah...that is exactly why I posted

"Sounds like the FAPA president must have known something you don't."

And piker says the answer is Membership. Did I pick right? I'm not defending anything FAPA did here.

I am trying to defend the F9 pilot group that is getting ripped on for making a decision they had no control over.

 

[Metrojet]

Nobody can be as bad as USAPA.....

I knew someone had to bring up USAPA - which has nothing to do with this

 

[General Lee]

General your hilarious. Furlough protection for the junior guys. I like it. You should run for President.

Gary saw an opportunity to get F9 at an attractive price no doubt, but he refused to do it if the labor agreement for the Southwest Pilots wasn't good enough, and it wasn't. Not even close. He could have forced anything he wanted upon us. Would Dick Anderson do that for your most junior guys?

I have friends at Delta. I hope you don't furlough. But if they do, then we'll revisit your idiotic RJ scope relief to save furlough BS. Nice try, maybe you guys will learn the RJ Scope Management Scheme after the 36th time!

I never said it was perfect, but the additional RJs would have seats removed from service, which does make a 76 seater less efficient. They would also have to move pilots down to Compass, which moves the Compass Capts to FOs, and furloughs Compass FOs, which costs a lot of money. It made furloughing a fairly non cost item to one that needs to be looked at, and determine what the cost break even analysis would be. Management had to determine how long a furloughed pilot could be out to break even on the cost. It may not seem like a lot, but it has served it's purpose so far. And, just because you don't understand all of this doesn't mean you should discount what I have to say.

I hope you don't have to go through an airline BK, and see what a lot of us have seen. It is not pretty when your rules or scope are diminished by a BK judge. That being said, it doesn't mean we won't come back and try to regain some of it, and we will. Your higher pay is thanks to us. Now we need you to keep that pay so we can climb that direction again. And honestly, you guys are so cocky that eventually you will probably slip and make a mistake too. You already aren't trusted to fly INTL flying, and you now will have to find new risky markets to put all of those 737s that were going to replace F9 busses. I know it must be tough to look at your own future possible problems and instead try to focus on other peoples problems. What can I say? You guys are invincible, according to yourselves. Good luck with that and your 5 leg days.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Sorry to grab your quote Red, but easier...

You do know General is on meds right? He forgets all his dribs about greedy NW guys who should have stfu and love the deal at DAL, and Africa is all the rage, and, etc., etc.

Now, at this point GL generally chimes in to say how childish, dumba$$ or whatever his latest qualifier is for our posts slamming him. But he somehow thinks it's "just us guys joshing on FI" for all his other threads he starts, but his skin a little more thin for incoming action.

I can take it, I always have. You just can't back any of your statements, and then you resort to slams, which shows your ignorance. The NWA guys actually did really well, and we offered a lot of things to make our combined airline stronger. I certainly didn't say I thought we should staple NWA, just like you Corndogs thought you should do with F9. What a complete slam, and that might be 2nd to the entitlement feelings of the Easties at USAPA. You guys looked soooo full of yourselves. "Wow, I am a Corndog that gets to fly an old 737-300 non EFIS from ABQ to STL(and onto BNA, BHM, TPA, and ORF)----hear me ROAR!!!" Who cares? Is this really childish slamming, or a mirror of the truth? Did I say anything that was a lie? Nope. Your pay is great (thanks to us), and your stews can be fun. The rest looks like a regional---lots of stops, forever. Yeah, you might do a transcon from PHL to LAX, but then add 2 more stops. You can't deny it, you "work like dawgs." (as stated to me by a SWA FO)

But hey, keep it going and don't bring the facts. You can't debate, and it is obvious you need to look for slams to try make any point. Thin skinned? You are talking about your group when people don't aspire to do what you do. It is hillarious to see the responses from you guys.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[regionaltard]

No discussion of union arrogance in the airline industry is complete without mentioning the origins of the RJ fiasco.

 

[Fly-diver]

Your higher pay is thanks to us. Now we need you to keep that pay so we can climb that direction again. And honestly, you guys are so cocky that eventually you will probably slip and make a mistake too. You already aren't trusted to fly INTL flying, and you now will have to find new risky markets to put all of those 737s that were going to replace F9 busses. I know it must be tough to look at your own future possible problems and instead try to focus on other peoples problems. What can I say? You guys are invincible, according to yourselves. Good luck with that and your 5 leg days.


Bye Bye--General Lee

SWA's higher pay is thanks to you? Here's a dose of reality General, SWA pay adjusted for inflation is the same as it was in the 1970's!!! Thanks to you, ALPA has given enormous pay and benefit concessions, which you will never get back. SWA is on top by default, not by design, and no thanks to you.

PS - have you ever seen a SWA schedule? You like to talk about 5 leg days a lot. I know they exist, but I haven't seen one in a couple years. 3 legs is an average day. SWA thrives on productivity. It's not about the number of legs, it's about not wasting the pilot's time and the company's money with non-productive ground time. Pretty simple concept, somehow it's lost on most airlines.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

SWA's higher pay is thanks to you? Here's a dose of reality General, SWA pay adjusted for inflation is the same as it was in the 1970's!!! Thanks to you, ALPA has given enormous pay and benefit concessions, which you will never get back. SWA is on top by default, not by design, and no thanks to you.

Ouch!! Sad but very, very true. When will we finally wake up and demand a national seniority list??!!

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Fubijaakr]

Ouch!! Sad but very, very true. When will we finally wake up and demand a national seniority list??!!

I'm with you.

 

[ivauir]

If you don't know, in the December 2007 FAA reauthorization bill, there was in inclusion that said essentially - 'If two merging pilot groups are represented by the same union, the union rules apply. If the pilot groups are from different unions, the formula of the allegheny-mohawk merger must apply'. No matter how much moaning and posturing the two sides here go though, they have to follow the A/M rules. That means a 'fair and equitable' merger - not stapling, not 'hiring when available', and not DOH.

HAL

You seem to have some severe misconceptions about AGM. AGM does NOT include any formula and AGM does NOT preclude stapling. It is simply a process, which was followed in this case.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

You already aren't trusted to fly INTL flying, ............. What can I say? You guys are invincible, according to yourselves....

Bye Bye--General Lee

You are really are piece of work GL with your "I can take it, always have" and we're all just misinformed and childish with our posts but yours are so well researched, mature, and spot on with accuracy.

Oh well, it's tough for us to compete with your tremendous wisdom. I suppose Gary Kelly will just back off his "no deal" unless labor agreement with us and F9 and he will bid for them anyway like you predict.

By the way, I've been sleeping for a couple days resting up after my 30 leg 2-day with a LBB overnite. Did I miss anything in the news?........

 

[kc81900]

Fellow SWAPA pilots,

We are very disappointed the FAPA pilots decided to turn down our SLI offer, and equally as disappointed in the Company's loss in the auction process. It appears that in addition to the labor clause, Republic significantly increased their monetary offer, causing Frontier to go with Republic. Our attorneys in Washington D.C. describe a bankruptcy auction like a "Turkish Rug Bizarre" and there were many mitigating factors which influenced the final decision. Certainly Republic's notable increase in their monetary offer had significant weight on the final decision.

To outline our last offer to the FAPA pilots, we had offered the following:
1. Adding FAPA pilots to the bottom of our Master Seniority List
2. Snap up to the greater of pre-concessionary FAPA pay rates (10% increase) or SWAPA F/O pay rates
3. Indexing pay raises to our Section 6 increases through the fence period
4. Denver Domicile protections for 3 years after the fence agreement

Their counter offer was essentially numbers 2 through 4 plus relative seniority (top to bottom of our list) less a factor of 'X' which they never defined - plus the following:
1. 100% Denver Domicile protection forever
2. $3000/month furlough pay for all of their furloughees forever
3. Health benefits for all furloughees forever (SWAPA values a family of four cobra rate at $1,000/month)

They made no concessions from their offer.

Considering the looming Company-induced deadline of midnight and the vast differences in offers, very little movement was made on either side. Without more time, our differences were just too vast. Our assessment of their offer was essentially "You want all your seniority at our pay rates and benefits." This wouldn't be a win for our pilot group. As such, we left our last offer on the table. At the 11th hour, the Company told us that they would go ahead with the auction and leave the labor contingency in place.
They weren't confident of their success at the auction considering the "negative value" the labor contingency was causing at the legal level, but SWA was committed to our pilots' best interests.

SWAPA did not hear from FAPA at all on Thursday except that they acknowledged some of our communication we forwarded to them. SWAPA made multiple attempts to contact FAPA on Thursday, but FAPA did not return messages or make any further attempt to bargain. Thursday night, the bid was awarded to Republic.


who was being more arrogant and unresonable in all this??? How can a pilot group with 14 years of operation and 50 aircraft demand all that they did. Compared to a 35 year carrier with 6000 pilots. I could see integration when you are dealing apples to apples. This was a windfall grab by F9 and I for one am very pleased in never went through. Good luck with republic let the rj revolution continue. What will A319/20 rates be under republic... probably alot less than your getting now. And your furlough pilots will not get back into the right seat for a very long time and when they do will it all have been worth it monetarily????? The top 10% at F9 screwed the rest of their brothers JMO

 

[ivauir]

And, again you are acting unbelievably cocky. Guess what sport? Your pay rates are THANKS TO US at DL. We brought your rates up with our own pay rate jump in 2000.

Who is cocky? Pay at WN has been flat when adjusted for inflation for 35 years. Believe it or not the world doesn't revolve around Delta.

 

[Quimby]

You are really are piece of work GL with your "I can take it, always have" and we're all just misinformed and childish with our posts but yours are so well researched, mature, and spot on with accuracy.

Oh well, it's tough for us to compete with your tremendous wisdom. I suppose Gary Kelly will just back off his "no deal" unless labor agreement with us and F9 and he will bid for them anyway like you predict.

By the way, I've been sleeping for a couple days resting up after my 30 leg 2-day with a LBB overnite. Did I miss anything in the news?........

It's much easier just to put him on the ignore list.

 

[General Lee]

Who is cocky? Pay at WN has been flat when adjusted for inflation for 35 years. Believe it or not the world doesn't revolve around Delta.

Nobody has EVER gotten the Cost of Living Adjustment. Nope. That never seems to matter. What does matter is what OTHER airlines are getting for the same plane type (737), and you based your pay off of ours. Try to say otherwise, and you are LYING. WRONG......... You got your higher pay scale after we got ours. Thanks for playing....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

SWA's higher pay is thanks to you? Here's a dose of reality General, SWA pay adjusted for inflation is the same as it was in the 1970's!!! Thanks to you, ALPA has given enormous pay and benefit concessions, which you will never get back. SWA is on top by default, not by design, and no thanks to you.

PS - have you ever seen a SWA schedule? You like to talk about 5 leg days a lot. I know they exist, but I haven't seen one in a couple years. 3 legs is an average day. SWA thrives on productivity. It's not about the number of legs, it's about not wasting the pilot's time and the company's money with non-productive ground time. Pretty simple concept, somehow it's lost on most airlines.

WRONG. Your pay was enhanced due to our high pay at the time. There is NO way you can say otherwise, since no pilot pay is based off of Cost of Living adjustments. Nope. They are based off of what other airlines are paying on similar equipment.

And I have seen your schedules. They are VERY productive, but so is my 3 day trip from ATL to Stuttgart. I fly one leg over, and one back for 20 hours in a 3 day. I get a first class meal, a movie, and a short nap before we land, and then after another short nap I get to watch interesting people (babes) walk by the beer garten before a nice dinner. You, on the otherhand, get to fly 5 legs the first day and end up in Reno. If you started on AMs, you always do AMs, and that means another 5 legs the second day all the way towards New Orleans, for another short one. You end up doing 3 legs the last day (one long one), but after the long one you always have a couple more---meaning you are ZONKED when you are done. Hey, work hard--play hard. I used to fly that way in the Regionals.(Commuters back then) Not anymore. If I get tired of INTL flying, there is plenty of domestic flying I could do too--our INTL category on the 767ER in ATL has plenty of 4 day Domestic trips worth 22 plus hours. I recently did an Anchorage trip for the fun of it, had some great Crab legs and brew at the brew pub up there. So, you can keep doing your multi-leg, quick turn trips that are productive. Enjoy it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You are really are piece of work GL with your "I can take it, always have" and we're all just misinformed and childish with our posts but yours are so well researched, mature, and spot on with accuracy.

Oh well, it's tough for us to compete with your tremendous wisdom. I suppose Gary Kelly will just back off his "no deal" unless labor agreement with us and F9 and he will bid for them anyway like you predict.

By the way, I've been sleeping for a couple days resting up after my 30 leg 2-day with a LBB overnite. Did I miss anything in the news?........

Yeah, speaking of bidding, Gary Kelly did great with the F9 bid. Check out what some analyst said about his performance with the F9 deal:

Southwest 'naive'
Critics who watched the process closely said Southwest's bid wasn't ready for prime time. Southwest executives "seemed not to understand the dynamics of the process or the obvious bottlenecks and complexities involved," said industry consultant Mo Garfinkle of Arlington, Va. Southwest "was naive and it didn't know it. It underestimated Republic and its talented management team, and it overestimated the reception to a Southwest bid, especially by the Frontier stakeholders. (from the Dallas Morning News article)


I sure am glad he is so nice to you guys. Maybe he will underestimate you guys too for your TA, and you will make $1 million an hour......


Bye Bye--General Lee