IS SWAPA the "New" USAPA???? Arrogance abound!

[HAL]

I don't know why it hasn't been brought up here before, but both the WN and F9 guys are pi$$'n in the wind when they try to position themselves in this fight.

If you don't know, in the December 2007 FAA reauthorization bill, there was in inclusion that said essentially - 'If two merging pilot groups are represented by the same union, the union rules apply. If the pilot groups are from different unions, the formula of the allegheny-mohawk merger must apply'. No matter how much moaning and posturing the two sides here go though, they have to follow the A/M rules. That means a 'fair and equitable' merger - not stapling, not 'hiring when available', and not DOH.

This part of the FAA reauthorization was somewhat overlooked at the time because of the President also signing the age 65 rule at the same time (December 2007). But it was introduced by Senator McKascill (sp?) from Missouri as part of the bill in response to the mergers at TWA/AA and US/AWA. So any new mergers from that point forward, including a possible WN/F9 merger, will be legally constrained to follow the Allegheny/Mohawk rules. So sorry southwest guys, there will be no stapling this time.

HAL

 

[NOZ]

I guess the real question is: Is General Lee the new "Tanker Clown"???

 

[Mikes Apartment]

Really, both of these groups demanded unrealistic outcomes. It just amazes me. No, there shouldn't be DOH or even full relative mix, but a pure staple is just ridiculous. Why don't you let neutrals (arbitrators) figure it out? I know why: You are AFRAID of the outcome. Let people on the outside determine what is fair. Gary Kelly says "PLEASE, Ya'll. Just do it...." Nah, it won't happen, the SWA guys won't allow it.... If so, let Republic come around and beat SWA in DEN at their own game.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I'm no big fan of Southwest Airlines but I like SWAPA protecting junior SWA pilots from possible negative outcomes from this. No current SWA pilot should be furloughed as a result of this purchase/merger.

 

[firstthird]

I don't know why it hasn't been brought up here before, but both the WN and F9 guys are pi$$'n in the wind when they try to position themselves in this fight.

If you don't know, in the December 2007 FAA reauthorization bill, there was in inclusion that said essentially - 'If two merging pilot groups are represented by the same union, the union rules apply. If the pilot groups are from different unions, the formula of the allegheny-mohawk merger must apply'. No matter how much moaning and posturing the two sides here go though, they have to follow the A/M rules. That means a 'fair and equitable' merger - not stapling, not 'hiring when available', and not DOH.

This part of the FAA reauthorization was somewhat overlooked at the time because of the President also signing the age 65 rule at the same time (December 2007). But it was introduced by Senator McKascill (sp?) from Missouri as part of the bill in response to the mergers at TWA/AA and US/AWA. So any new mergers from that point forward, including a possible WN/F9 merger, will be legally constrained to follow the Allegheny/Mohawk rules. So sorry southwest guys, there will be no stapling this time.

HAL

HAL,

we're all quite aware of M/B (McCaskill/Bond) and its ramifications. which is why our management put in the contingency to get labor agreements BEFORE we commit to buy more than 50%.

firstthird

p.s. it is problematic that M/B hasn't been litigated yet and I hope we aren't the test case.

p.p.s. a staple could be considered 'fair and equitable' depending on the the two carriers and the 'career expectations' of their pilots as determined by an arbitrator. I think we might, keyword might, be okay in arbitration but it is a complete gamble and SWA pilots are happy where we are and how we are. we don't want this, our management does.

 

[johnsonrod]

I don't know why it hasn't been brought up here before, but both the WN and F9 guys are pi$$'n in the wind when they try to position themselves in this fight.

If you don't know, in the December 2007 FAA reauthorization bill, there was in inclusion that said essentially - 'If two merging pilot groups are represented by the same union, the union rules apply. If the pilot groups are from different unions, the formula of the allegheny-mohawk merger must apply'. No matter how much moaning and posturing the two sides here go though, they have to follow the A/M rules. That means a 'fair and equitable' merger - not stapling, not 'hiring when available', and not DOH.

This part of the FAA reauthorization was somewhat overlooked at the time because of the President also signing the age 65 rule at the same time (December 2007). But it was introduced by Senator McKascill (sp?) from Missouri as part of the bill in response to the mergers at TWA/AA and US/AWA. So any new mergers from that point forward, including a possible WN/F9 merger, will be legally constrained to follow the Allegheny/Mohawk rules. So sorry southwest guys, there will be no stapling this time.

HAL

Does that apply to an asset sale out of bankruptcy? That's the question... This is not a merger, per se. I still think the F9 pilots are being shafted and treated unfairly (I think some integration formula should be used)...

 

[General Lee]

Trying to stir the pot a little there General?


SLC

Of course I am trying to stir the pot, that is what I do. But, I also think this is soooo one sided. Really, it is ridiculous, and the F9 pilots do NOT deserve a staple for what their mangement has done to them. That is key. Now, I don't think they should be thrown in relative seniority, but something inbetween, something that gives them SOME CREDIT for longevity. Now the Lynx guys, you can staple them and give everyone some protection. Even they would like that....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

They do their pilots no good when they lose credibility. If they end up in arbitration and their position is to staple an A320/19 pilot group to the bottom of a 737 pilot group they will have their collective arses handed to them. I guess the next stunt would then be to vote SWAPA off the property in a desperate attempt to avoid implementing the integrated seniority list.

This merger could bring growth opportunities to SWA, which translates into more upward mobility for SWA first officers.

FDJ, I am not talking about a staple, I am talking about the fact that they are playing hard ball with management. I would assume that their MEC knows that a staple is just plain BS. It is all part of the company pressuring them in to an 11 hr deal and SWAPA waiting until they are in the 11th hour and 59th minute and 45 seconds to make sure they are getting the best deal. Management came to them and asked to take a major clause out of the offer. I think that SWAPA should get something in return for that. IMHO that is what they are doing.

 

[trip]

Really, both of these groups demanded unrealistic outcomes. It just amazes me. No, there shouldn't be DOH or even full relative mix, but a pure staple is just ridiculous. Why don't you let neutrals (arbitrators) figure it out? I know why: You are AFRAID of the outcome. Let people on the outside determine what is fair. Gary Kelly says "PLEASE, Ya'll. Just do it...." Nah, it won't happen, the SWA guys won't allow it.... If so, let Republic come around and beat SWA in DEN at their own game.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Every now and then GL says something sensible! I couldn't agree more.

 

[shagadelic]

General,
Let me get this straight, if DALPA were in SWAPAs shoes, you are saying you would gladly merge them in to Captain spots? Somehow I think not... although they wouldn't get near the pay bump becoming Delta Captains that they would at SWA. I guess it wouldn't be such a windfall after all.

 

[kc81900]

Any integration on the F9 pilots would be a windfall. They would obtain pay and seniority benefits while SWA pilots gain nothing and actually lose ground.

F9 Fo's going to SWA pay rates and F9 captains getting pay protections is a benefit for them ( F9) a staple to our list is a loss for F9. They gain in one area and lose in another. Fair and equitable thats to be debated i for one think that is fair and equitable.

What would the F9 pilots get under republic merger??? A319/20 flying at RJ pay rates. List integration at what formula?? More F9 losses under that scenario than with WN.