IS SWAPA the "New" USAPA???? Arrogance abound!

[Porch]

You SWA pilots are really showing your arrogant side. I guess the F9 pilots should carry your bags and shine your shoes while they're at it - but they will be pay protected so I guess that's OK...[/URL]

Where's the shoe shine wax & my gloves? I'd rather do that than work for republic... at least I'll be able to afford to pay my mortgage and feed my family.

 

[johnsonrod]

Where's the shoe shine wax & my gloves? I'd rather do that than work for republic... at least I'll be able to afford to pay my mortgage and feed my family.

I doubt you ever expected to get rich as a pilot (and if you did you were misguided). If you want to just focus on money leave aviation and go to Law School....

 

[flyingitalian]

Make sure you know that this offer is not one sided. F9 was offered base protection in DEN (airbus now and all new 737 fo slots) FOREVER. They would be on the bottom of the mastoer seniority list, but pay protected to pre-concessionary rates and given credit for their longevity for vacation and pay rates. The top F9 pilot would get a raise, on the bottom of the list as a captain on the 320 in DEN and even as an FO on the 737. Remember your paycheck is not just your hourly rate. We can easily fly 100 trips a month without really breaking a sweat. What was the top paying F9 captain W2 last year? Im willing to bet he would make more money here right out of the shoot.

And General, are you kidding me? What if Delta bought F9, what would your tune be then?

 

[Porch]

I doubt you ever expected to get rich as a pilot (and if you did you were misguided). If you want to just focus on money leave aviation and go to Law School....

I'm already rich bro, I've made my $$ elsewhere... its not the money to me, but it is to many in the F9 group. How about this: If you want to be a rich pilot, go work for WN. If you prefer to stay broke, toss out your resume and press on with Rep. I prefer to work for a professional carrier and cushion my nest egg... I've worked for regionals and don't want to do it again. Thanks for your advice, in advance.

 

[shagadelic]

I doubt you ever expected to get rich as a pilot (and if you did you were misguided). If you want to just focus on money leave aviation and go to Law School....

Actually when I was in high school I read a career book that showed how much major airline pilots made, how much they worked, and what they did. I thought, man that would be cool to fly jets and earn that kind of coin. I was comparing that to a doctor, and thought the doctor route was longer, I would work harder with longer hours, and maybe not have the quality of life. I saw myself making the bucks then, and did what I needed to to make it happen. My life is not flying jets, it's doing things with my family and enjoying my time off. This career enables me to do that, and as an added benefit, it's not a half bad way to earn a living.

I certainly wouldn't have done it for less, and would have chosen another career if I didn't reasonably expect to make what I had researched.

Though it's not politically correct, if you aren't factoring what you will make when you are figuring out what you want to do in life, you may end up with some big regrets later in life when you discover that your "passion", in the end, is just a job.

 

[General Lee]

General,
Let me get this straight, if DALPA were in SWAPAs shoes, you are saying you would gladly merge them in to Captain spots? Somehow I think not... although they wouldn't get near the pay bump becoming Delta Captains that they would at SWA. I guess it wouldn't be such a windfall after all.

Nope. I actually suggested to GUP Driver that we start at the half way point (top half are Captains) and then go with a ratio DOWNWARDs. Maybe 1 for 5---whatever. It would give the senior F9 guys credit for their own longevity, and eventually they would be Captains again soon. You don't want to "poop" on guys that you will be sharing the crewroom or cockpits with. That is what a staple seems like.

And, again you are acting unbelievably cocky. Guess what sport? Your pay rates are THANKS TO US at DL. We brought your rates up with our own pay rate jump in 2000. Just because our management decided to run our company into BK doesn't mean it was our fault at all. You should know that---but instead you have a cocky attitude---typical of most of you guys. (not all) You get really mad when people don't want to do what you do, which is multiple leg days with 25 minute turns, on the same plane, forever..... sounds just great, and incredibly boring. But hey, keep telling yourself that each time you land in ELP.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[firstthird]

You get really mad when people don't want to do what you do, which is multiple leg days with 25 minute turns, on the same plane, forever..... sounds just great, and incredibly boring. But hey, keep telling yourself that each time you land in ELP.

seems like you are the one that has a problem with what we do, whatever. maybe one day we'll get some big planes and fly international, then we can hang out with you in Nairobi.

 

[General Lee]

Make sure you know that this offer is not one sided. F9 was offered base protection in DEN (airbus now and all new 737 fo slots) FOREVER. They would be on the bottom of the mastoer seniority list, but pay protected to pre-concessionary rates and given credit for their longevity for vacation and pay rates. The top F9 pilot would get a raise, on the bottom of the list as a captain on the 320 in DEN and even as an FO on the 737. Remember your paycheck is not just your hourly rate. We can easily fly 100 trips a month without really breaking a sweat. What was the top paying F9 captain W2 last year? Im willing to bet he would make more money here right out of the shoot.

And General, are you kidding me? What if Delta bought F9, what would your tune be then?

If Delta bought F9 (or maybe Alaska coming up here), I would still allow it to be fair. Eventually you are going to run into incredible animosity, which would mean constant complaining. Since F9 is not going to liquidate, you can't give them the worst case scenario---which is a staple. You can't, unless you are a bunch of cocky jackholes. Our merger with NWA wasn't perfect, but it was done fairly with 3 neutrals (arbitrators), and they came up with a solution. The NWA guys got 30% raises immediately (more when they move from the DC9 to the 757/767), got better work rules, and kept their frozen pensions (what we don't have). So, they may have taken a small hit on the SLI, but they did better in every other category. That is the way it goes, but in the end we all can agree that not everyone got what they wanted, which means it was somewhat fair, and we can all wave at eachother as we taxi by. I can't even wave at you guys because you guys are taxiing so fast......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

seems like you are the one that has a problem with what we do, whatever. maybe one day we'll get some big planes and fly international, then we can hang out with you in Nairobi.

You mean Sydney? How about Rome? I am too senior to have to go to Nairobi (actually we don't fly there yet). You guys will have to get some INTL experience first before you "dream" of going anywhere near Nairobi. How about Canada first? Can you convince your management that you are good enough? How about Mexico? They are actually pretty nice down there most of the time. I bet you could do it. Let the F9 guys show you how, fairly.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Any integration on the F9 pilots would be a windfall. They would obtain pay and seniority benefits while SWA pilots gain nothing and actually lose ground.

F9 Fo's going to SWA pay rates and F9 captains getting pay protections is a benefit for them ( F9) a staple to our list is a loss for F9. They gain in one area and lose in another. Fair and equitable thats to be debated i for one think that is fair and equitable.

What would the F9 pilots get under republic merger??? A319/20 flying at RJ pay rates. List integration at what formula?? More F9 losses under that scenario than with WN.

So, your company would not get a windfall for routes/gates (ATL), slots (DCA and more LGA), and dominance at DEN? It's all about you, and not about your company being stronger in the future...... I am glad you are not an arbitrator. Why again would Gary Kelly offer $60 million more than Republic for the same deal? Hmmmm, maybe he knows something you don't. I kinda hope Republic wins the auction, makes F9 stronger (they do have the money), and then repeatedly beats you over the head in DEN. The finger will always be pointed back at YOU.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CHQ Pilot]

I don't know why it hasn't been brought up here before, but both the WN and F9 guys are pi$$'n in the wind when they try to position themselves in this fight.

If you don't know, in the December 2007 FAA reauthorization bill, there was in inclusion that said essentially - 'If two merging pilot groups are represented by the same union, the union rules apply. If the pilot groups are from different unions, the formula of the allegheny-mohawk merger must apply'. No matter how much moaning and posturing the two sides here go though, they have to follow the A/M rules. That means a 'fair and equitable' merger - not stapling, not 'hiring when available', and not DOH.

This part of the FAA reauthorization was somewhat overlooked at the time because of the President also signing the age 65 rule at the same time (December 2007). But it was introduced by Senator McKascill (sp?) from Missouri as part of the bill in response to the mergers at TWA/AA and US/AWA. So any new mergers from that point forward, including a possible WN/F9 merger, will be legally constrained to follow the Allegheny/Mohawk rules. So sorry southwest guys, there will be no stapling this time.

HAL

Not to bring this back up, but it is not as simple that if one carrier buys another then there has to be a SLI. If SWA buys Frontier and operates them entirely seperate without merging operations, then it would not be covered by A-M. (ref H10678, Sec 817, Part 4)

 

[afhercdriver]

Of course I am trying to stir the pot, that is what I do. But, I also think this is soooo one sided. Really, it is ridiculous, and the F9 pilots do NOT deserve a staple for what their mangement has done to them. That is key. Now, I don't think they should be thrown in relative seniority, but something inbetween, something that gives them SOME CREDIT for longevity. Now the Lynx guys, you can staple them and give everyone some protection. Even they would like that....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Nor do they deserve to be unemployed looking for a job in a terrible economy. What is so wrong with a staple? F9 captains will make the same money and F9 FOs will get a windfall. I think SWA deserves some credit for running an airline for 38 years without furloughing even a single pilot. Can the same be said for RAH? I don't think so. Being a SWA FO for a couple of years, I can say it is a great place to work. We take care of each other and that includes the new guys. Our battle cry is Save Craig Johnson. Our most junior man. If the F9 guys join us their most junior guy will be who we protect. Just my thoughts while on vacation in Branson, MO. Go-carts here we come!

Jim

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Sounds like they are going to play it like DAL did with NWA. Get labor to the table make them sort it out and then have a very smooth merger.

Looks like RA and LM might has started a trend!

 

[StopNTSing]

You mean Sydney? How about Rome? I am too senior to have to go to Nairobi (actually we don't fly there yet). You guys will have to get some INTL experience first before you "dream" of going anywhere near Nairobi. How about Canada first? Can you convince your management that you are good enough? How about Mexico? They are actually pretty nice down there most of the time. I bet you could do it. Let the F9 guys show you how, fairly.


Bye Bye--General Lee

....and we're the cocky ones, eh GL?

How many SWA dudes did you see wading in and speaking out of their rectums in the DL-NW merger threads? I'm sure it's way too much to expect the same restraint from you (and FDJ2, for that matter)? The number and volume of people flapping their gums who don't even have a dog in this fight (and having an axe to grind with SWA doesn't qualify, BTW) has been setting new standards for ignorance on display at FI.

Geez, I broke my own rule.....I just fed the troll. :smash:

 

[General Lee]

....and we're the cocky ones, eh GL?

How many SWA dudes did you see wading in and speaking out of their rectums in the DL-NW merger threads? I'm sure it's way too much to expect the same restraint from you (and FDJ2, for that matter)? The number and volume of people flapping their gums who don't even have a dog in this fight (and having an axe to grind with SWA doesn't qualify, BTW) has been setting new standards for ignorance on display at FI.

Geez, I broke my own rule.....I just fed the troll. :smash:

Since when do you own the threads? I can't have an opinion? You own the threads, just like you want to own F9? Go on your own SWAPA website if you don't want my opinion. And, since I don't have a dog in this fight, that might mean something---like a neutral voice. But, you can't handle the truth, and we can all see why you wouldn't want a true "neutral" (arbitrator) to view a case like this. Hey, you are afraid of the outcome. We went through it at DL/NWA, and it went well for most of us.

Bye now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Nor do they deserve to be unemployed looking for a job in a terrible economy. What is so wrong with a staple? F9 captains will make the same money and F9 FOs will get a windfall. I think SWA deserves some credit for running an airline for 38 years without furloughing even a single pilot. Can the same be said for RAH? I don't think so. Being a SWA FO for a couple of years, I can say it is a great place to work. We take care of each other and that includes the new guys. Our battle cry is Save Craig Johnson. Our most junior man. If the F9 guys join us their most junior guy will be who we protect. Just my thoughts while on vacation in Branson, MO. Go-carts here we come!

Jim

Jim,

Thank you for the civility, first of all. Well, it just doesn't work out like that anymore. I know SWA has the upperhand here, but F9 is not about to liquidate. If they were, then maybe a staple would be adequate. F9 brings stuff to the table, and they would make SWA stronger. You can't discount that. The F9 pilots are attached to their assets, according to their own contract that was not dumped by the BK judge. You cannot discount that. You guys need to get used to the fact that mergers or aquisitions are no longer staple jobs---and a new law by Bond/Mcaskill affirms that also. If Gary Kelly wants to dump the deal over this, he will. He hasn't done it yet. Take care.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[shearedshaft]

12,900 posts. General Lee, give it a rest, there isn't a single person participating in these threads that have the slightest interest in what you have to say.

I know that it stings that you make less than the SWA guys with lower seniority, but can't you just drown your sorrows in alcohol and get away from the keyboard for a couple of days?

If each of your posts took 2 minutes to compose and write, you have spent 430 hours just typing on this website. I'm sure you read too, so let's triple it. You have spent the equivalent of a solid workyear on Flightinfo.

If you were a SWA captain, that would be worth more than $220,000.

Please go away. At least for a little while.

 

[FDJ2]

Not to bring this back up, but it is not as simple that if one carrier buys another then there has to be a SLI. If SWA buys Frontier and operates them entirely seperate without merging operations, then it would not be covered by A-M. (ref H10678, Sec 817, Part 4)

Except that both PWA's don't allow that and require integration. Hence A-M.

 

[afhercdriver]

Jim,

Thank you for the civility, first of all. Well, it just doesn't work out like that anymore. I know SWA has the upperhand here, but F9 is not about to liquidate. If they were, then maybe a staple would be adequate. F9 brings stuff to the table, and they would make SWA stronger. You can't discount that. The F9 pilots are attached to their assets, according to their own contract that was not dumped by the BK judge. You cannot discount that. You guys need to get used to the fact that mergers or aquisitions are no longer staple jobs---and a new law by Bond/Mcaskill affirms that also. If Gary Kelly wants to dump the deal over this, he will. He hasn't done it yet. Take care.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I am trying to look at this from both sides. I have a lot of friends at TWA who took it in the shorts. I don't wish that on anyone especially the F9 guys/gals. However, at the same how can we as a group not protect our most junior guy? If there did happen to be a furlough as a result of the acquistion, would it be fair if it turned out to be Craig Johnson? That's the problem we have. We have to protect our own first then worry about the F9 guys. After they are on our list, they will enjoy the same protections we give to our most junior guys. I really think the problem is with our seniority based system that we all live or die by. I don't pretend to know the answers. Maybe F9 would be better off with RAH but if I were in the their position, I'm not sure if I would be willing to take that chance. One thing for sure, things are changing at F9. I wish them the best. Now, back to the Go-carts and then Silver Dollar City!

Jim

 

[General Lee]

12,900 posts. General Lee, give it a rest, there isn't a single person participating in these threads that have the slightest interest in what you have to say.

I know that it stings that you make less than the SWA guys with lower seniority, but can't you just drown your sorrows in alcohol and get away from the keyboard for a couple of days?

If each of your posts took 2 minutes to compose and write, you have spent 430 hours just typing on this website. I'm sure you read too, so let's triple it. You have spent the equivalent of a solid workyear on Flightinfo.

If you were a SWA captain, that would be worth more than $220,000.

Please go away. At least for a little while.

Attacking me for my post count, when I have been on here for YEARS. Good one. Anyway, you can't get past the fact that you guys are now seen as arrogant jackholes, and this also was a way to TRY to get your TA settled, which also has failed. Hey, sometimes you get what you ask for, and sometimes you do NOT.

And, I do have a few more days off before my next trip to Stuttgart. That means more time to watch this all unfold. As far as your Southwest Captain salary, I do fine where I am at, and my wife has a great job making a lot more than that herself. Thanks for caring. Have a great one, and keep the attacks coming, they are amusing.


Bye Bye--General Lee