Would SKYW inc trade ASA PBS and dumping ALPA for 1 list?

[FightingIrish]

Measure it this way. If Skywest continues to grow and ASA continues to shrink, then it will be time to consider a different course. We must do what is in the interest of our pilot group, regardless of antiquated allegiances to any union.

You are right. I would prefer to do it with ALPA. They have done a lot of good things, and they are a valuable resource. However we need to do what is in our best interest. I wear my ALPA pin with pride, but I sometimes shake my head at their actions.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ASA pilots, as an ALPA insider, you need to tell the leadership that you tired of the status quo. You need to challenge them. If you don't , nothing will change.

Well that is just it.... and it is not exclusive to ALPA members... there is a member/citizen apathy that is about out entire culture....


Between the jumpseating issues and now this.... Skywests' and airline corporate teams would love for ASA to decertify or have vote after an intergration.....

Is that the goal....?

 

[FightingIrish]

Well that is just it.... and it is not exclusive to ALPA members... there is a member/citizen apathy that is about out entire culture....


Between the jumpseating issues and now this.... Skywests' and airline corporate teams would love for ASA to decertify or have vote after an intergration.....

Is that the goal....?

Rez, I agree. I have never seen the participation as high as it is now. It is not for the good however. ALPA is under threat here at ASA. The ASA pilots are tired of empty promisses from ALPA. ALPA told the ASA pilots that they can't negotiate for Delta flying. They said it belongs to the Delta pilots. Skywest negotiates for Delta flying. Why can Jerry do it, but not ASA ALPA? It doesn't compute for many of us who have given many years to ALPA. We want ALPA to survive, but it is getting tougher every day here.

 

[FishandFly]

In a perfect world I would choose to have had skywest vote in alpa, and then proceed to one list. I know that would have led to a significantly better working agreement for the skywest and asa pilots. The problem is that we all would likely agree that it would be impossible now. Skywest pilots have had there say numerous times and SKYW inc. wouldn't want alpa.

As for our losing alpa, I must say that there will be some things that are certainly missed. What we would gain would be incredible though.

The bottom line is that skywest inc. has more than proven themselves to me. They are top notch and are financially solid. Ten years is a long ways away, but I would bet money that being on the skywest side will be better than the asa side.

 

[Flybywire44]

The union drive would come right back after a ASA/SKY merger. Allegheny Mohawk would make things interesting.

 

[73belair]

. What we would gain would be incredible though.

What would that be? And don't tell me better pay or more flying. Tell me that industry leading ASAP things would happen. Tell me that just because we didn't have ALPA that SKW inc. would treat us just like they do SKW. Tell me that the pay rates and the PBS that will happen when ALPA looks at all the the options will be better than what JA has given skw so far. Give me a break. What has SKW put in place that was ahead of anything that a union carrier didin't fight for?

 

[Speedtape]

Rez, I agree. I have never seen the participation as high as it is now. It is not for the good however. ALPA is under threat here at ASA. The ASA pilots are tired of empty promisses from ALPA. ALPA told the ASA pilots that they can't negotiate for Delta flying. They said it belongs to the Delta pilots. Skywest negotiates for Delta flying. Why can Jerry do it, but not ASA ALPA? It doesn't compute for many of us who have given many years to ALPA. We want ALPA to survive, but it is getting tougher every day here.

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Jerry negotiates for Delta flying--for both Skywest and ASA. ALPA has not and does not negotiate for flying. Alpa negotiates your work rules, pay, and benefits. Through 3 contracts, they have delivered.

Just curious, to what empty promises are you referring? ALPA has been under threat since about 1931, when it was formed--it didn't just start happening in the last few years. The ASA pilots are ALPA at ASA. I would say that ALPA's threat at ASA are the disingenuous people who claim to be insiders and come on FI to try and reveal the interworkings of the MEC. YOU ARE THE THREAT! One has to question your loyalty and integrity, IF you are a volunteer.

But then, what Committee do you serve on? Why should anyone give any creedance to what you claim, when you obviously have no loyalty to anyone but yourself?

 

[Speedtape]

Measure it this way. If Skywest continues to grow and ASA continues to shrink, then it will be time to consider a different course. We must do what is in the interest of our pilot group, regardless of antiquated allegiances to any union.

Is Skywest continuing to grow? Check your facts, please.

 

[JustaNumber]

On a lighter note...

Just think of the flight attendants that would be coming out here.

I don't want to know what those guys do in their private time!

 

[Tarzan]

The ASA pilots are ALPA at ASA. I would say that ALPA's threat at ASA are the disingenuous people who claim to be insiders and come on FI to try and reveal the interworkings of the MEC. YOU ARE THE THREAT! One has to question your loyalty and integrity, IF you are a volunteer.

Why would he be the threat? Because he doesn't agree with how things are going at the MEC level? Why is he privvy to things that are going on at that level that the entire pilot group isn't then? I thought we were ALPA. We don't we have the down and dirty as well?

 

[FishandFly]

Tarzan. Right on man. This whole hypersensitivity to someone either in alpa or represented by alpa thinking any thoughts other than pro-alpa thoughts is absolutely absurd.

ALPA defenders and reps who hold this line are very ignorant in my opinion. Speedtape, I'm not really hammering down on you. There are many people at ASA who have a live by alpa/die by alpa mentality that is far from where I stand. I have reached the point where I think that ALPA is actually detrimental to the future of our airline, as keeping it will likely prevent one-list.

To the gentleman who asked what I think will be incredibly beneficial about merging with skywest, I am referring specifically to becoming part of the "TEAM" rather than remaining the outsider. It has nothing to do with the incremental issues that we get memos on every few weeks. It is about the big picture.

My point is simply this. In my opinion Skywest is one of the absolute best airlines in the country and I do not see this changing in the future. There is nothing better that has happened to ASA in recent history. Skywest is currently holding us as a sellable asset. Our being sold away from skywest is not a good thing. We should 100 percent embrace skywest and attempt to get them to embrace us as one of their own.

This comes from proving ourselves as we have been doing for the past couple years, but the problem is that we are concurrently proving ourselves to be a better sellable asset. This is NOT what we want. We need SKYW inc. to consider us an equal performer and we then need them to join us on one list.

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

It amazes me that people blame ALPA for decisions made by top level executives. Divide and conquer, create division in the ranks, this is an old management scheme. Managements across the board have been empowered by the employees who buy into the short sighted doomsday scenario that management subjectively fosters. Most recently, Skywest has added a chapter to the lesson plan. They have "given" their employees benefits which we fought for, and subsequently stripped us of some of ours. This is a coordinated effort on their part to make an example of organized ASA pilots to their pilot group. I have worked on both the unionized, and non-unionized side of the fence. Would some things improve for our pilot group as a whole if Inc. didn't have to contend with a power block (organized labor)? Maybe, but your individual job would be less safe, and you can forget about having any recourse when the company violates workrules. The grass looks greener on the other side, right now, because the Skywest pilot group is more flexible (no pun intended) from management's perspective. Their QOL would not be what it is today without ASA's current collective bargaining agreement. We were sold to Skywest at a bargain price...half of what Delta paid for us. Do you really think they will ever view us as anything other than an asset? We make money for them, an a$$load. The only card they have left to play is selling us. No one out there has the $$$ for that now. They have trimmed back the pilot force as far as they can for now (How many pilots would be on the street right now if the company wasn't contractually bound to limit furloughs?) SH was asked this very quesiton in recurrent and answered "probably about 180" additional pilots. If Skywest really wanted ASA to be more cost competitive per block hour, they would grow our pilot group, and deliver more flying with longer legs. That would translate into lower costs per hour. This is a game that they are playing--very well. Careful you don't step in the bull$hit. I would rather lose my job through furlough, and the line be held by those still standing. I don't plan on staying at this company for the rest of my career. However, while I am here I want to make this place a better place for the pilots who have chosen to stay, and also those pilots who were hired after me.

Bending over is not going to result in better pay, better work rules, new bases, or more flying. Not only would it be a shameful act, it would hurt the profession as a whole by sending a dangerous message: We are cowards, and we will cave to your demands if you make our lives difficult. We already have notorious pilot groups who have done just that. I take great pride in not being a part of those groups. You don't like ALPA national? Fine, suggest a better alternative other than depending on Skywest Inc.'s benevolence and you would probably have quite an audience. The problem is, there isn't one....I'm still flying, I'm still collecting a paycheck, and I don't kiss a$$. I will gladly give up the first two benefits if they are conditional regarding the other option.

 

[JumpersAway]

I think our biggest issue has to do with watching Pinnicle, and their soon to be released contract details. If it's somewhat comparable to ASA's, we're ok. If they undercut us with work rules and pay, then I think we've got a big problem- expecially since our negotiations formally open this October, one year ahead of the ammendable date to our next contract. If Pinnicle drops the ball on this, we're gonna be looking at a wave of concessions here- not that I'm a proponent of that, but it's going to be a real issue for us, unfortunately.

I think one list is the way to go, but I don't think that an ALPA decertification is the way to do it. Frankly, if Delta pushes through with their "ALPA Only" DCI carrier drive, I'd expect to see SkyWest push forward with an ALPA drive soon after, followed by managements push for one list.

Honestly, think of the synergies that would come from a single list- now you can combine operating certificates for such items as maintenance, scheduling, operations- essentially doing way more with far less, on both sides of the fense. Frankly, I think SkyWest Inc. would go from a financial titan to a powerhouse.............

 

[Erlanger]

...Frankly, if Delta pushes through with their "ALPA Only" DCI carrier drive, I'd expect to see SkyWest push forward with an ALPA drive soon after, followed by managements push for one list.

Where did you come up with that nonsense? Skywest has a contract in place till 2020 and I don't think requiring a pilot group to be ALPA would be legal.

 

[FishandFly]

The delta issue is a very interesting one, but as I understand it that was put to rest long ago. Wasn't it?

Dumping alpa and getting one list has nothing to do with holding the line or being a coward. It has everything to do with ASA becoming part of a company that strives to win.

One example of this is skywest performance checks. This is a huge benefit that comes to their employees because they want their company to do well. No ALPA line was held there because it was not needed. The fact is that alpa had a solid role when we were the weak pilot group held by a bad company that had lots of money, but we are now part of a company that we can help improve.

If your company treats you well, and has a track record of doing exactly that then you should embrace it, not be militant. If they starting losing focus on treating us well we can consider representation at that time.

 

[Speedtape]

Why would he be the threat? Because he doesn't agree with how things are going at the MEC level? Why is he privvy to things that are going on at that level that the entire pilot group isn't then? I thought we were ALPA. We don't we have the down and dirty as well?

Did you play football in HS? Did you let the other team in your huddle?
In fact, was the rest of the school or the team on the bench in the huddle?

You elect representatives to represent you in a representative form of governing. In order to conduct the business of the ASA ALPA Union, there are going to be things they are privy to that the rest of the pilot group aren't. It's necessary for them to conduct business. Hopefully, that does not require further explanation. If you want to know all the "down and dirty" as you call it, then you need to run and get elected as a Representative.

 

[Tarzan]

Did you play football in HS? Did you let the other team in your huddle?
In fact, was the rest of the school or the team on the bench in the huddle?

You elect representatives to represent you in a representative form of governing. In order to conduct the business of the ASA ALPA Union, there are going to be things they are privy to that the rest of the pilot group aren't. It's necessary for them to conduct business. Hopefully, that does not require further explanation. If you want to know all the "down and dirty" as you call it, then you need to run and get elected as a Representative.

I understand what you are saying and agree with it to a point although I believe it is a bad analogy regarding the current environment. As I've said before I am not for kicking out ALPA unless I had some iron clad guarentees. I don't see them coming anytime soon. I believe the protections given are important for me to continue in this field. I like having a source to help me when I have medical or legal issues. Either one of these is a game ender in our profession.

However, when I bring up some of the things that go on behind the scenes, I am told I am against ALPA or I should go to SkyWest. There is stuff going on that I know plenty of other folks don't agree with. The problem is is that once a group gets entrenched in a position, it becomes exceedingly difficult to dislodge them and their mind set that is in place. I'd gladly run for a rep position but unless I have three other like minded individuals, I'd be run out on a rail covered in tar and feathers. I am not ready to do that to myself or my family.

Best Regards

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

Dumping ALPA = Depending on Skywest to "do the right thing" afterwards. They are a business, responsible to their shareholders above everyone else (including my pay and QOL). If you have so much faith in their benevolence, perhaps you should have applied there. BTW, why did you come to ASA ? This pilot group is still weak. The majority of the pilots I have flown with are completely content to complain about their plight, but are unwilling to actually roll up their sleeves and tow the line. These are the same guys that say "Hey, do you have a copy of the contract with you? I don't think they can do this to us." Placing value on our continued ability to negotiate our pay scales and work rules does not make one "militant". Decertification is not the answer. A less apathetic, pilot group would be a step in the right direction.

They pay their employees performance checks as an incentive to produce, not because they care about their "inner child".

We can agree to disagree about ALPA all day long. The simple fact of the matter is this.....we are in a recession--a big one. ASA is not losing anything that any other pilot group is not losing. In fact, in many cases we are fairing better than some of our brothers/sisters. Skywest is not going to integrate us, because we are a threat to their way of doing business. If you want to work for them so badly, resign here, and put in your application.

 

[Speedtape]

The delta issue is a very interesting one, but as I understand it that was put to rest long ago. Wasn't it?

Dumping alpa and getting one list has nothing to do with holding the line or being a coward. It has everything to do with ASA becoming part of a company that strives to win.
You make it seem so simple. Explain how you get one list? Do you know what would happen if you dumped ALPA? FYI, ASA is already part of a Corporation that strive to win!

One example of this is skywest performance checks. This is a huge benefit that comes to their employees because they want their company to do well. No ALPA line was held there because it was not needed. The fact is that alpa had a solid role when we were the weak pilot group held by a bad company that had lots of money, but we are now part of a company that we can help improve.
Are you an ASA employee? I got a nice performance check. I have not met a Pilot at my Company, ASA, that does not want it to do well. Having ALPA on the property does not stop YOU from doing things to improve your Company--no matter which Company you work for.

If your company treats you well, and has a track record of doing exactly that then you should embrace it, not be militant. If they starting losing focus on treating us well we can consider representation at that time.

We have ALPA. Having ALPA does not mean that the Company cannot treat you well. It is in their best interest, especially considering the way the Company is compensated to treat you well. It may not always be like that. I am not willing to take the risk of firing my Union on a whimsical pipeline dream that is being proffered. The grass is not greener on the other side.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Jerry negotiates for Delta flying--for both Skywest and ASA. ALPA has not and does not negotiate for flying. Alpa negotiates your work rules, pay, and benefits. Through 3 contracts, they have delivered.

Just curious, to what empty promises are you referring? ALPA has been under threat since about 1931, when it was formed--it didn't just start happening in the last few years. The ASA pilots are ALPA at ASA. I would say that ALPA's threat at ASA are the disingenuous people who claim to be insiders and come on FI to try and reveal the interworkings of the MEC. YOU ARE THE THREAT! One has to question your loyalty and integrity, IF you are a volunteer.

But then, what Committee do you serve on? Why should anyone give any creedance to what you claim, when you obviously have no loyalty to anyone but yourself?

I think Fighting Irish has great intentions... but there is a much bigger picture out there that you've illustrated....

Skywest is a great place to work mostly because it is managements way of keeping the union off property.... Skywest wants to be the only one that has access to govt thru the RAA.... they don't pilots having their own Association and rights afforded to them them via the FAA and nmb.