Would SKYW inc trade ASA PBS and dumping ALPA for 1 list?

[FishandFly]

Tarzan. Right on man. This whole hypersensitivity to someone either in alpa or represented by alpa thinking any thoughts other than pro-alpa thoughts is absolutely absurd.

ALPA defenders and reps who hold this line are very ignorant in my opinion. Speedtape, I'm not really hammering down on you. There are many people at ASA who have a live by alpa/die by alpa mentality that is far from where I stand. I have reached the point where I think that ALPA is actually detrimental to the future of our airline, as keeping it will likely prevent one-list.

To the gentleman who asked what I think will be incredibly beneficial about merging with skywest, I am referring specifically to becoming part of the "TEAM" rather than remaining the outsider. It has nothing to do with the incremental issues that we get memos on every few weeks. It is about the big picture.

My point is simply this. In my opinion Skywest is one of the absolute best airlines in the country and I do not see this changing in the future. There is nothing better that has happened to ASA in recent history. Skywest is currently holding us as a sellable asset. Our being sold away from skywest is not a good thing. We should 100 percent embrace skywest and attempt to get them to embrace us as one of their own.

This comes from proving ourselves as we have been doing for the past couple years, but the problem is that we are concurrently proving ourselves to be a better sellable asset. This is NOT what we want. We need SKYW inc. to consider us an equal performer and we then need them to join us on one list.

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

It amazes me that people blame ALPA for decisions made by top level executives. Divide and conquer, create division in the ranks, this is an old management scheme. Managements across the board have been empowered by the employees who buy into the short sighted doomsday scenario that management subjectively fosters. Most recently, Skywest has added a chapter to the lesson plan. They have "given" their employees benefits which we fought for, and subsequently stripped us of some of ours. This is a coordinated effort on their part to make an example of organized ASA pilots to their pilot group. I have worked on both the unionized, and non-unionized side of the fence. Would some things improve for our pilot group as a whole if Inc. didn't have to contend with a power block (organized labor)? Maybe, but your individual job would be less safe, and you can forget about having any recourse when the company violates workrules. The grass looks greener on the other side, right now, because the Skywest pilot group is more flexible (no pun intended) from management's perspective. Their QOL would not be what it is today without ASA's current collective bargaining agreement. We were sold to Skywest at a bargain price...half of what Delta paid for us. Do you really think they will ever view us as anything other than an asset? We make money for them, an a$$load. The only card they have left to play is selling us. No one out there has the $$$ for that now. They have trimmed back the pilot force as far as they can for now (How many pilots would be on the street right now if the company wasn't contractually bound to limit furloughs?) SH was asked this very quesiton in recurrent and answered "probably about 180" additional pilots. If Skywest really wanted ASA to be more cost competitive per block hour, they would grow our pilot group, and deliver more flying with longer legs. That would translate into lower costs per hour. This is a game that they are playing--very well. Careful you don't step in the bull$hit. I would rather lose my job through furlough, and the line be held by those still standing. I don't plan on staying at this company for the rest of my career. However, while I am here I want to make this place a better place for the pilots who have chosen to stay, and also those pilots who were hired after me.

Bending over is not going to result in better pay, better work rules, new bases, or more flying. Not only would it be a shameful act, it would hurt the profession as a whole by sending a dangerous message: We are cowards, and we will cave to your demands if you make our lives difficult. We already have notorious pilot groups who have done just that. I take great pride in not being a part of those groups. You don't like ALPA national? Fine, suggest a better alternative other than depending on Skywest Inc.'s benevolence and you would probably have quite an audience. The problem is, there isn't one....I'm still flying, I'm still collecting a paycheck, and I don't kiss a$$. I will gladly give up the first two benefits if they are conditional regarding the other option.

 

[JumpersAway]

I think our biggest issue has to do with watching Pinnicle, and their soon to be released contract details. If it's somewhat comparable to ASA's, we're ok. If they undercut us with work rules and pay, then I think we've got a big problem- expecially since our negotiations formally open this October, one year ahead of the ammendable date to our next contract. If Pinnicle drops the ball on this, we're gonna be looking at a wave of concessions here- not that I'm a proponent of that, but it's going to be a real issue for us, unfortunately.

I think one list is the way to go, but I don't think that an ALPA decertification is the way to do it. Frankly, if Delta pushes through with their "ALPA Only" DCI carrier drive, I'd expect to see SkyWest push forward with an ALPA drive soon after, followed by managements push for one list.

Honestly, think of the synergies that would come from a single list- now you can combine operating certificates for such items as maintenance, scheduling, operations- essentially doing way more with far less, on both sides of the fense. Frankly, I think SkyWest Inc. would go from a financial titan to a powerhouse.............

 

[Erlanger]

...Frankly, if Delta pushes through with their "ALPA Only" DCI carrier drive, I'd expect to see SkyWest push forward with an ALPA drive soon after, followed by managements push for one list.

Where did you come up with that nonsense? Skywest has a contract in place till 2020 and I don't think requiring a pilot group to be ALPA would be legal.

 

[FishandFly]

The delta issue is a very interesting one, but as I understand it that was put to rest long ago. Wasn't it?

Dumping alpa and getting one list has nothing to do with holding the line or being a coward. It has everything to do with ASA becoming part of a company that strives to win.

One example of this is skywest performance checks. This is a huge benefit that comes to their employees because they want their company to do well. No ALPA line was held there because it was not needed. The fact is that alpa had a solid role when we were the weak pilot group held by a bad company that had lots of money, but we are now part of a company that we can help improve.

If your company treats you well, and has a track record of doing exactly that then you should embrace it, not be militant. If they starting losing focus on treating us well we can consider representation at that time.

 

[Speedtape]

Why would he be the threat? Because he doesn't agree with how things are going at the MEC level? Why is he privvy to things that are going on at that level that the entire pilot group isn't then? I thought we were ALPA. We don't we have the down and dirty as well?

Did you play football in HS? Did you let the other team in your huddle?
In fact, was the rest of the school or the team on the bench in the huddle?

You elect representatives to represent you in a representative form of governing. In order to conduct the business of the ASA ALPA Union, there are going to be things they are privy to that the rest of the pilot group aren't. It's necessary for them to conduct business. Hopefully, that does not require further explanation. If you want to know all the "down and dirty" as you call it, then you need to run and get elected as a Representative.

 

[Tarzan]

Did you play football in HS? Did you let the other team in your huddle?
In fact, was the rest of the school or the team on the bench in the huddle?

You elect representatives to represent you in a representative form of governing. In order to conduct the business of the ASA ALPA Union, there are going to be things they are privy to that the rest of the pilot group aren't. It's necessary for them to conduct business. Hopefully, that does not require further explanation. If you want to know all the "down and dirty" as you call it, then you need to run and get elected as a Representative.

I understand what you are saying and agree with it to a point although I believe it is a bad analogy regarding the current environment. As I've said before I am not for kicking out ALPA unless I had some iron clad guarentees. I don't see them coming anytime soon. I believe the protections given are important for me to continue in this field. I like having a source to help me when I have medical or legal issues. Either one of these is a game ender in our profession.

However, when I bring up some of the things that go on behind the scenes, I am told I am against ALPA or I should go to SkyWest. There is stuff going on that I know plenty of other folks don't agree with. The problem is is that once a group gets entrenched in a position, it becomes exceedingly difficult to dislodge them and their mind set that is in place. I'd gladly run for a rep position but unless I have three other like minded individuals, I'd be run out on a rail covered in tar and feathers. I am not ready to do that to myself or my family.

Best Regards

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

Dumping ALPA = Depending on Skywest to "do the right thing" afterwards. They are a business, responsible to their shareholders above everyone else (including my pay and QOL). If you have so much faith in their benevolence, perhaps you should have applied there. BTW, why did you come to ASA ? This pilot group is still weak. The majority of the pilots I have flown with are completely content to complain about their plight, but are unwilling to actually roll up their sleeves and tow the line. These are the same guys that say "Hey, do you have a copy of the contract with you? I don't think they can do this to us." Placing value on our continued ability to negotiate our pay scales and work rules does not make one "militant". Decertification is not the answer. A less apathetic, pilot group would be a step in the right direction.

They pay their employees performance checks as an incentive to produce, not because they care about their "inner child".

We can agree to disagree about ALPA all day long. The simple fact of the matter is this.....we are in a recession--a big one. ASA is not losing anything that any other pilot group is not losing. In fact, in many cases we are fairing better than some of our brothers/sisters. Skywest is not going to integrate us, because we are a threat to their way of doing business. If you want to work for them so badly, resign here, and put in your application.

 

[Speedtape]

The delta issue is a very interesting one, but as I understand it that was put to rest long ago. Wasn't it?

Dumping alpa and getting one list has nothing to do with holding the line or being a coward. It has everything to do with ASA becoming part of a company that strives to win.
You make it seem so simple. Explain how you get one list? Do you know what would happen if you dumped ALPA? FYI, ASA is already part of a Corporation that strive to win!

One example of this is skywest performance checks. This is a huge benefit that comes to their employees because they want their company to do well. No ALPA line was held there because it was not needed. The fact is that alpa had a solid role when we were the weak pilot group held by a bad company that had lots of money, but we are now part of a company that we can help improve.
Are you an ASA employee? I got a nice performance check. I have not met a Pilot at my Company, ASA, that does not want it to do well. Having ALPA on the property does not stop YOU from doing things to improve your Company--no matter which Company you work for.

If your company treats you well, and has a track record of doing exactly that then you should embrace it, not be militant. If they starting losing focus on treating us well we can consider representation at that time.

We have ALPA. Having ALPA does not mean that the Company cannot treat you well. It is in their best interest, especially considering the way the Company is compensated to treat you well. It may not always be like that. I am not willing to take the risk of firing my Union on a whimsical pipeline dream that is being proffered. The grass is not greener on the other side.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Jerry negotiates for Delta flying--for both Skywest and ASA. ALPA has not and does not negotiate for flying. Alpa negotiates your work rules, pay, and benefits. Through 3 contracts, they have delivered.

Just curious, to what empty promises are you referring? ALPA has been under threat since about 1931, when it was formed--it didn't just start happening in the last few years. The ASA pilots are ALPA at ASA. I would say that ALPA's threat at ASA are the disingenuous people who claim to be insiders and come on FI to try and reveal the interworkings of the MEC. YOU ARE THE THREAT! One has to question your loyalty and integrity, IF you are a volunteer.

But then, what Committee do you serve on? Why should anyone give any creedance to what you claim, when you obviously have no loyalty to anyone but yourself?

I think Fighting Irish has great intentions... but there is a much bigger picture out there that you've illustrated....

Skywest is a great place to work mostly because it is managements way of keeping the union off property.... Skywest wants to be the only one that has access to govt thru the RAA.... they don't pilots having their own Association and rights afforded to them them via the FAA and nmb.

 

[FishandFly]

Once we are forced to take PBS, what differences will exist between us and SKYW?

 

[JumpersAway]

Where did you come up with that nonsense? Skywest has a contract in place till 2020 and I don't think requiring a pilot group to be ALPA would be legal.

It's not nonsense, it's fact. It was deliberated about. Lee Moak has figured out that it is in the best interest of his pilot group if we collaborate and work as a team in raising the bar. ASA, Delta, and a multitude of other DCI carriers have been working on this for quite some time. Where was SkyWest's representatives while this was going on??? I don't seem to recall their presence.......... It wasn't nonsense, it's fact. Whether or not it goes into effect, I'm not certain, but it has been a real issue on the table.

 

[USCtrojan]

It's not nonsense, it's fact. It was deliberated about. Lee Moak has figured out that it is in the best interest of his pilot group if we collaborate and work as a team in raising the bar. ASA, Delta, and a multitude of other DCI carriers have been working on this for quite some time. Where was SkyWest's representatives while this was going on??? I don't seem to recall their presence.......... It wasn't nonsense, it's fact. Whether or not it goes into effect, I'm not certain, but it has been a real issue on the table.

Future GROWTH of DCI to go to ALPA Carriers only. You keep what you have, but growth can only go to ALPA Carriers. It was in Northwest's JPWA that Delta is supposedly honoring--post merger. This is what everyone is referring to.

Trojan

 

[SNAFU_AIR]

Fish....how much do you know about PBS?

First of all, no one can force us to take anything. We are not, and will not be, in bankruptcy proceedings before a judge who might have the power to do so. Not while we are backed by Jerry's $$$. Furthermore, we are making Jerry $$$, as has been previously stated, therefore making us a valuable asset. I can use colors if I have to explain that again if it will help you absorb the concept. The only way we are going to take PBS, on their terms, is if defeatists like you decide "all is lost" prematurely, and then undermine union efforts to achieve the desired outcome. Joseph Kennedy, America's ambassador to Great Britain at the start of WWII, had a similar outlook on Great Britain's chance to defy Hitler in WWII. "The battle has been lost before it has begun". Glad the Brits had the cajones to prove him wrong, and thankfully we have individuals with a backbone at the office working to maintain our QOL. These very same people who are trying to help us all now, are the ones who are prepared to go to the mat for you when something goes wrong at work. I doubt you would have the backbone to tell your union reps how you feel about their efforts, or to refuse their help on principle when you need it.

I have some questions for you. How much do you know about the PBS system currently being negotiated by our union reps? You assume that it is the exact same PBS system that Skywest has. Do you know who the vendor for Skywest is? Do you know what vendor, if one has been selected, that our union is pushing for? The vendor they select could make a huge difference. Do you know how much control the SAPA pilots have over their PBS system (zilch, they take what is handed to them)? Assuming we VOTED IN PBS, do you know how much control over the system our Union is negotiating for?

Have you even talked to anyone who is involved in the process of PBS negotiations here at ASA, or are you making general assumptions leading you to base your argument on a faulty premise? Those were all rhetorical questions (in case that part flew over your head).

I challenge you to actually pick up your contract and read it, go over to the office and talk to someone who is involved in negotiations, and then question any Skywest pilot about their system.

I think if you spent a little more time doing your homework instead of spouting out bad information on FI, you would realize how misguided you are. Chances are, the grass is going to look quite a bit greener on THIS side of the fence. What is it that you think will be gained by one list? We were saved in Delta's latest bankruptcy by not being ONE list. Thankfully, Comair seemed like the better company for them to drag through the courts.

We should be thankful we were sold. What's to say that Skywest doesn't eventually find itself in trouble. I don't want to be a part of their organization when United goes down the tubes, who BTW is raising capital by mortgaging their aircraft parts. Do you think your job is going to be safer? Do you expect more money, or better work rules? Guess where all of those came from? The only reason SAPA can claim similar progress is because it was GIVEN to them to prevent an independent union from being voted on property.

You are paying for union representation. The union is a tool, a seat at the bargaining table. What we do with that seat at the bargaining table is up to us. "Giving it away" in the words of a wise man, "would be like putting a big slab of red meat in front of a pack of hungry wolves". Do you think the wolves have your hunger in mind? Rhetorical, again . You don't seem to understand how, or why, decisions are being made that affect your career, but you still haven't gotten off of your can to go ask these questions to the folks that know the answers. Get involved, be part of the solution--or do nothing and continue to feel like a victim. If you do what you've always done, you're going to get what you've always gotten.

 

[FishandFly]

Snafu,

PBS= I know a little bit about pbs.

Our taking PBS= We will be forced into PBS by the next contract. I'll bet money on it.

You say we are a valuable asset to jerry= That is not the point. As has been discussed earlier in the thread the POINT AT HAND is that we are being held as a sellable asset. You may see that as a good thing; I do not. I think that being sold off will be very bad for us.

On your history speech= Do you realize that as long as we have people on the street, maintaining or improving our "quality of life" directly results them coming back? That sounds fantastic, why don't we ask for another raise!

On your argument that "our pbs system will be so good that we should not even want one-list with skyw"= Bologna. Please reference my comments earlier concerning the fact that ALPA will continue to be active and helpful in small issues that are brought to us by CT memos every couple months. The point here is that our long term outlook is much brighter if we are able to be attached to SKYW inc.

As for your suggestion that I don't read or appreciate our contract= Do you always carry your ignorance around on your sleeve? The definition I mean.

Your suggestion that ONE-LIST now is not a good idea because it wouldn't have worked well for us with Comair= Please visualize the whole apples and oranges analogy. You're trying to compair Delta with SKYW.




For the rest of your questions and suggestions, I think that the main thing your are missing the boat on is your presumption that I (or possibly anyone) who questions the all mighty alpa is selling out. Although you are entitled to your opinion, you are quite wrong. I trust Skywest inc. I believe that they have proven their worth to me as an employee, and I would be willing to give up ALPA to gain the security that I believe will come with being part of SKYW. And finally, as stated numerous times above, we are currently being held as a sellable asset. If skywest sells us, I believe we will lose the greatest opportunity that ASA has had in recent history.