Informational Stapling Compass to Delta Website

[flyboyike]

Which meeting?

The double super-secret one.

 

[PCL_128]

I heard that it passed at the Council 44 meeting.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It passed 24-17 with no proxy votes.

 

[Hamfighter]

So where does it go from here?
Is it a done deal, or more votes/approvals needed?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The resolution passed basically has them research the possibilities, advantages, and disadvantages of keeping compass in the mec along with an SLI, or breaking them off to form their own MEC.

 

[Hamfighter]

So they've decided to think about it.

 

[flyboyike]

So they've decided to think about it.

Well, no, they've decided to think and possibly even have further discussions about it. A major milestone, to be sure.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

A much stronger resolution is in the works at LEC 20.

LEC 44 was going to be the most difficult to push this through at, thus the weakened wording.

 

[FDJ2]

A much stronger resolution is in the works at LEC 20.

LEC 44 was going to be the most difficult to push this through at, thus the weakened wording.

You're right about LEC 44 being a difficult LEC to push a resolution through, particularly when there is a low turnout. LEC 44 normally has quite a few MEC administration pilots in attendance and they often vote against resolutions that are too directive in nature, nobody likes being told what to do, even if an LEC rsolution can't direct the MEC.

The balance of power favors those who show up to vote. Had there been a large number of junior pilots in attendance, there weren't, stronger language might have been possible.

That being said, the language is fairly strong given the circumstances. It identifies CPZ as unique among DCI carriers, points out the areas that need to be considered, calls for pilot input, that the recommendation to ALPA national be delayed if there is insufficient time to thoroughly examine the issue etc.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

True enough FDJ.
For a Local 44 resolution, it was fairly strong worded.

 

[surplus1]

Fascinating thread gentlemen, I enojyed all the posts and marvel at the humor in it all.

First - I have no dog in the battle or for that matter in any other battle; I'm retired. But, I do have a question and a few observations:

Q. Didn't CAL and Express Jet once have a single MEC wherein the CAL pilots 'represented' the Express Jet pilots (as in the current DAL/CPZ single MEC?

[I believe that was started with the IACP then carried for a short while after IACP and ALPA merged - at which point the Express pilots were dumped - like the hot potato they were - and each wound up with separate MECs]

Perhaps I have a bad memory but I do not recall a single instance where that arrangement was beneficial to the Express Jet pilots. It was never intended to be - they just didn't 'get' that.

In contrast, Compass pilots never had anything to say about that - they are a creation of the NW pilot group and would not have otherwise existed.

Observation:

I went to go see Lee Moak speak at the Special MEC Meeting in MSP last month. A Compass pilot approached the microphone and was inquiring about the possibilities of being stapled on the DAL seniority list. LM made it pretty clear to him that he represents DAL pilots and DAL pilots alone. It is specifically addressed in the MEC Leadership Mission Statement.

Exactly right! [That is also how it was before the DAL/NW merger. The NWA MEC represented NW pilots and NW pilots alone!]

BTW - that is also how it was when the Express pilots thought they were an integral part of and 'represented' by the CAL MEC. The fact was that the CAL MEC represented CAL pilots and CAL pilots alone!]

There is nothing wrong with that. It is quite 'normal' and to be expected.

That is why I find some of the posts by Compass pilots a bit humorous. They seem to think that their presence in some sort of LEC that is part of the DMEC translates to being 'represented' by the DMEC. That's ludicrous. Reality is: they are not 'represented' by anyone.

As one pilot pointed out - Compass was created (in bankruptcy) as furlough protection for the NW pilots. It is now (due to the merger) furlough protection for the Delta pilots (which includes former NW pilots).

The problem, if there is one, is simple: The Delta pilots are now such a large group that Compass really provides very little furlough protection for them. Compass is just too small (in its present state).

Notwithstanding, it is in the best interests of the Delta pilots to keep the Compass pilots within the Delta MEC. It doesn't make sense to have an alter ego airline whose pilots represent themselves. Within the DMEC, from a practical point of view, the Compass folks are powerless and easily controlled. They represent zero threat as long as that is so. Smart move [to keep them there].

All this talk about 'SL integration' for Compass pilots is a smoke screen and meaningless. If that isn't true, it is certainly premature. They can be flushed now. If they remain within the DMEC they can be flushed in the future - no change - and they will be if there is ever a furlough at DAL. That is why they were created and it should come as no surprise to them.

The flow, like all other 'flows', is a meaningless 'carrot' for anyone at Compass. That's just reality. Flowthroughs are no more than a different form of furlough protection for the mainline. It is highly improbable that the already huge size of Delta Air Lines will miraculously increase in the forseable future. In fact, it is far more likely to downsize considerably.

However, if the Compass people are separated from the DMEC there is a possibility, remote as it may be, that they could renegotiate and improve their current status. That would not be good for Delta pilots. It could very well lead to a reduction in the furlough protection. The objective of the resolution appears to be an effort to prevent that. It is therefore in the best interests of the Delta pilots to keep Compass where they are and to discourage any ideas they might have of forming their own MEC.

As the Chairman reportedly said - he represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots alone. It appears likely that the DMEC will come to support some form (most probably modified substantially) of the proposed resolution.

The idea that this will ultimately recapture the Compass equipment and put it on the mainline is somehat of a stretch. One that involves a lot of wishful thinking on the part of some.

Section 1 of all mainline agreements was put on the table and opened by mainline pilots a long time ago. The result was outsourcing. That was a gift to management that they took eagerly and will never (yeah I know, never say never) give up. It is not in their best interest to do so.

We must not lose sight of the fact that the best interests of a corporate entity is seldom, if ever, synonymous with the best interest of its employees. Management just doesn't think that way.

Just as the DMEC represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots alone, management negotiators represent management and management alone.

They now have the advantage on Scope issues. It will always be on the table in every Section 6. They will NOT give up anything that is not advantageous to them. They may 'sell' certain elements of Scope if the price paid is to their liking but they will NOT give away anything - unless they have no choice.

Unless thier buisness plan changes to one that does not warrant or include outsourcing (highly improbable), then outsourcing is here to stay - in one form or another.

Mergers of any kind only happen when mangement believes them advantageous to the interests of management. They never happen because pilots think its a good idea.

If you P into the wind you usually get wet - no more.

 

[propdog]

Fascinating thread gentlemen, I enojyed all the posts and marvel at the humor in it all.

First - I have no dog in the battle or for that matter in any other battle; I'm retired. But, I do have a question and a few observations:

Q. Didn't CAL and Express Jet once have a single MEC wherein the CAL pilots 'represented' the Express Jet pilots (as in the current DAL/CPZ single MEC?

[I believe that was started with the IACP then carried for a short while after IACP and ALPA merged - at which point the Express pilots were dumped - like the hot potato they were - and each wound up with separate MECs]

Perhaps I have a bad memory but I do not recall a single instance where that arrangement was beneficial to the Express Jet pilots. It was never intended to be - they just didn't 'get' that.

In contrast, Compass pilots never had anything to say about that - they are a creation of the NW pilot group and would not have otherwise existed.

Observation:

Exactly right! [That is also how it was before the DAL/NW merger. The NWA MEC represented NW pilots and NW pilots alone!]

BTW - that is also how it was when the Express pilots thought they were an integral part of and 'represented' by the CAL MEC. The fact was that the CAL MEC represented CAL pilots and CAL pilots alone!]

There is nothing wrong with that. It is quite 'normal' and to be expected.

That is why I find some of the posts by Compass pilots a bit humorous. They seem to think that their presence in some sort of LEC that is part of the DMEC translates to being 'represented' by the DMEC. That's ludicrous. Reality is: they are not 'represented' by anyone.

As one pilot pointed out - Compass was created (in bankruptcy) as furlough protection for the NW pilots. It is now (due to the merger) furlough protection for the Delta pilots (which includes former NW pilots).

The problem, if there is one, is simple: The Delta pilots are now such a large group that Compass really provides very little furlough protection for them. Compass is just too small (in its present state).

Notwithstanding, it is in the best interests of the Delta pilots to keep the Compass pilots within the Delta MEC. It doesn't make sense to have an alter ego airline whose pilots represent themselves. Within the DMEC, from a practical point of view, the Compass folks are powerless and easily controlled. They represent zero threat as long as that is so. Smart move [to keep them there].

All this talk about 'SL integration' for Compass pilots is a smoke screen and meaningless. If that isn't true, it is certainly premature. They can be flushed now. If they remain within the DMEC they can be flushed in the future - no change - and they will be if there is ever a furlough at DAL. That is why they were created and it should come as no surprise to them.

The flow, like all other 'flows', is a meaningless 'carrot' for anyone at Compass. That's just reality. Flowthroughs are no more than a different form of furlough protection for the mainline. It is highly improbable that the already huge size of Delta Air Lines will miraculously increase in the forseable future. In fact, it is far more likely to downsize considerably.

However, if the Compass people are separated from the DMEC there is a possibility, remote as it may be, that they could renegotiate and improve their current status. That would not be good for Delta pilots. It could very well lead to a reduction in the furlough protection. The objective of the resolution appears to be an effort to prevent that. It is therefore in the best interests of the Delta pilots to keep Compass where they are and to discourage any ideas they might have of forming their own MEC.

As the Chairman reportedly said - he represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots alone. It appears likely that the DMEC will come to support some form (most probably modified substantially) of the proposed resolution.

The idea that this will ultimately recapture the Compass equipment and put it on the mainline is somehat of a stretch. One that involves a lot of wishful thinking on the part of some.

Section 1 of all mainline agreements was put on the table and opened by mainline pilots a long time ago. The result was outsourcing. That was a gift to management that they took eagerly and will never (yeah I know, never say never) give up. It is not in their best interest to do so.

We must not lose sight of the fact that the best interests of a corporate entity is seldom, if ever, synonymous with the best interest of its employees. Management just doesn't think that way.

Just as the DMEC represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots alone, management negotiators represent management and management alone.

They now have the advantage on Scope issues. It will always be on the table in every Section 6. They will NOT give up anything that is not advantageous to them. They may 'sell' certain elements of Scope if the price paid is to their liking but they will NOT give away anything - unless they have no choice.

Unless thier buisness plan changes to one that does not warrant or include outsourcing (highly improbable), then outsourcing is here to stay - in one form or another.

Mergers of any kind only happen when mangement believes them advantageous to the interests of management. They never happen because pilots think its a good idea.

If you P into the wind you usually get wet - no more.

Big difference between ExpressJet-CAL and Compass-Delta. I know 'cause I worked for ExpressJet and then NWA and DAL! CAL pilots made no effort to re-capture the regional flying and bring it to mainline...flying a 50 seater jet was the last thing in their mind. There was just too much animosity between the groups. CALALPA nor XJETALPA had any interest in coming together. However, as it currently stands, DAL pilots would like to re-capture atleast the 70+ seat flying. Majority of the DAL pilots and the majority of the Compass pilots would love to see this happen. Now, I do agree with you that management is not going to give it away for nothing. But we will fight for it and we are already doing the ground work. Recapturing the 70+ seat marketwill be a major milestone for the US major airline industry.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

screw it. pointless. suffice to say that surplus1 doesn't have clue what he is talking about in regards to CAL/CALEX. I was there, he wasn't.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Oh come on. We know you could put all of this to rest. You were there.

Got anything to send our way, BTW?

 

[surplus1]

As you point out, Capt. Caucasian, you would know better than me.

Yes, I realize the structure of the combined single MEC was not the same at CAL as it is at DAL/NW. The structure was not my point.

My point was that it is impossible for a single MEC to represent two pilot groups that have separate seniority lists. No more, no less.

I do not care how long you were at Express Jet or how much more you know about anything. The fact remains, whether you deny it or not, no matter how many LEC's you had, that while EJet was a part of the CAL MEC you could not make even 1 decision that might affect the CAL pilots without their consent. They could always figure out how to 'out vote' you, whether or not you had more pilots for a short period.

It is true that because of their internal split they could not have made the merger without your consent. It is also true that once they got what they wanted (the merger) they dumped you. If you choose to believe otherwise, be my guest. I really don't care.

I don't buy your blaming it all on the 'scabs'. You were already in ALPA when the MEC's divided. After the merger, there were no 'scabs'. ALPA waived the magic wand and they all went away. Remember?

My fault? Go pick a fight somewhere else buddy. I have no time for it. If you don't like what I wrote just erase it from your small mind and we'll both live happily ever after.

Best wishes.