Fascinating thread gentlemen, I enojyed all the posts and marvel at the humor in it all.
First - I have no dog in the battle or for that matter in any other battle; I'm retired. But, I do have a question and a few observations:
Q. Didn't CAL and Express Jet once have a single MEC wherein the CAL pilots 'represented' the Express Jet pilots (as in the current DAL/CPZ single MEC?
[I believe that was started with the IACP then carried for a short while after IACP and ALPA merged - at which point the Express pilots were dumped - like the hot potato they were - and each wound up with separate MECs]
Perhaps I have a bad memory but I do not recall a single instance where that arrangement was beneficial to the Express Jet pilots. It was never intended to be - they just didn't 'get' that.
In contrast, Compass pilots never had anything to say about that - they are a creation of the NW pilot group and would not have otherwise existed.
Observation:
Exactly right! [That is also how it was before the DAL/NW merger. The NWA MEC represented NW pilots and NW pilots alone!]
BTW - that is also how it was when the Express pilots thought they were an integral part of and 'represented' by the CAL MEC. The fact was that the CAL MEC represented CAL pilots and CAL pilots alone!]
There is nothing wrong with that. It is quite 'normal' and to be expected.
That is why I find some of the posts by Compass pilots a bit humorous. They seem to think that their presence in some sort of LEC that is part of the DMEC translates to being 'represented' by the DMEC. That's ludicrous. Reality is: they are not 'represented' by anyone.
As one pilot pointed out - Compass was created (in bankruptcy) as furlough protection for the NW pilots. It is now (due to the merger) furlough protection for the Delta pilots (which includes former NW pilots).
The problem, if there is one, is simple: The Delta pilots are now such a large group that Compass really provides very little furlough protection for them. Compass is just too small (in its present state).
Notwithstanding, it is in the best interests of the Delta pilots to keep the Compass pilots within the Delta MEC. It doesn't make sense to have an alter ego airline whose pilots represent themselves. Within the DMEC, from a practical point of view, the Compass folks are powerless and easily controlled. They represent zero threat as long as that is so. Smart move [to keep them there].
All this talk about 'SL integration' for Compass pilots is a smoke screen and meaningless. If that isn't true, it is certainly premature. They can be flushed now. If they remain within the DMEC they can be flushed in the future - no change - and they will be if there is ever a furlough at DAL. That is why they were created and it should come as no surprise to them.
The flow, like all other 'flows', is a meaningless 'carrot' for anyone at Compass. That's just reality. Flowthroughs are no more than a different form of furlough protection for the mainline. It is highly improbable that the already huge size of Delta Air Lines will miraculously increase in the forseable future. In fact, it is far more likely to downsize considerably.
However, if the Compass people are separated from the DMEC there is a possibility, remote as it may be, that they could renegotiate and improve their current status. That would not be good for Delta pilots. It could very well lead to a reduction in the furlough protection. The objective of the resolution appears to be an effort to prevent that. It is therefore in the best interests of the Delta pilots to keep Compass where they are and to discourage any ideas they might have of forming their own MEC.
As the Chairman reportedly said - he represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots alone. It appears likely that the DMEC will come to support some form (most probably modified substantially) of the proposed resolution.
The idea that this will ultimately recapture the Compass equipment and put it on the mainline is somehat of a stretch. One that involves a lot of wishful thinking on the part of some.
Section 1 of all mainline agreements was put on the table and opened by mainline pilots a long time ago. The result was outsourcing. That was a gift to management that they took eagerly and will never (yeah I know, never say never) give up. It is not in their best interest to do so.
We must not lose sight of the fact that the best interests of a corporate entity is seldom, if ever, synonymous with the best interest of its employees. Management just doesn't think that way.
Just as the DMEC represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots alone, management negotiators represent management and management alone.
They now have the advantage on Scope issues. It will always be on the table in every Section 6. They will NOT give up anything that is not advantageous to them. They may 'sell' certain elements of Scope if the price paid is to their liking but they will NOT give away anything - unless they have no choice.
Unless thier buisness plan changes to one that does not warrant or include outsourcing (highly improbable), then outsourcing is here to stay - in one form or another.
Mergers of any kind only happen when mangement believes them advantageous to the interests of management. They never happen because pilots think its a good idea.
If you P into the wind you usually get wet - no more.
First - I have no dog in the battle or for that matter in any other battle; I'm retired. But, I do have a question and a few observations:
Q. Didn't CAL and Express Jet once have a single MEC wherein the CAL pilots 'represented' the Express Jet pilots (as in the current DAL/CPZ single MEC?
[I believe that was started with the IACP then carried for a short while after IACP and ALPA merged - at which point the Express pilots were dumped - like the hot potato they were - and each wound up with separate MECs]
Perhaps I have a bad memory but I do not recall a single instance where that arrangement was beneficial to the Express Jet pilots. It was never intended to be - they just didn't 'get' that.
In contrast, Compass pilots never had anything to say about that - they are a creation of the NW pilot group and would not have otherwise existed.
Observation:
Exactly right! [That is also how it was before the DAL/NW merger. The NWA MEC represented NW pilots and NW pilots alone!]
BTW - that is also how it was when the Express pilots thought they were an integral part of and 'represented' by the CAL MEC. The fact was that the CAL MEC represented CAL pilots and CAL pilots alone!]
There is nothing wrong with that. It is quite 'normal' and to be expected.
That is why I find some of the posts by Compass pilots a bit humorous. They seem to think that their presence in some sort of LEC that is part of the DMEC translates to being 'represented' by the DMEC. That's ludicrous. Reality is: they are not 'represented' by anyone.
As one pilot pointed out - Compass was created (in bankruptcy) as furlough protection for the NW pilots. It is now (due to the merger) furlough protection for the Delta pilots (which includes former NW pilots).
The problem, if there is one, is simple: The Delta pilots are now such a large group that Compass really provides very little furlough protection for them. Compass is just too small (in its present state).
Notwithstanding, it is in the best interests of the Delta pilots to keep the Compass pilots within the Delta MEC. It doesn't make sense to have an alter ego airline whose pilots represent themselves. Within the DMEC, from a practical point of view, the Compass folks are powerless and easily controlled. They represent zero threat as long as that is so. Smart move [to keep them there].
All this talk about 'SL integration' for Compass pilots is a smoke screen and meaningless. If that isn't true, it is certainly premature. They can be flushed now. If they remain within the DMEC they can be flushed in the future - no change - and they will be if there is ever a furlough at DAL. That is why they were created and it should come as no surprise to them.
The flow, like all other 'flows', is a meaningless 'carrot' for anyone at Compass. That's just reality. Flowthroughs are no more than a different form of furlough protection for the mainline. It is highly improbable that the already huge size of Delta Air Lines will miraculously increase in the forseable future. In fact, it is far more likely to downsize considerably.
However, if the Compass people are separated from the DMEC there is a possibility, remote as it may be, that they could renegotiate and improve their current status. That would not be good for Delta pilots. It could very well lead to a reduction in the furlough protection. The objective of the resolution appears to be an effort to prevent that. It is therefore in the best interests of the Delta pilots to keep Compass where they are and to discourage any ideas they might have of forming their own MEC.
As the Chairman reportedly said - he represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots alone. It appears likely that the DMEC will come to support some form (most probably modified substantially) of the proposed resolution.
The idea that this will ultimately recapture the Compass equipment and put it on the mainline is somehat of a stretch. One that involves a lot of wishful thinking on the part of some.
Section 1 of all mainline agreements was put on the table and opened by mainline pilots a long time ago. The result was outsourcing. That was a gift to management that they took eagerly and will never (yeah I know, never say never) give up. It is not in their best interest to do so.
We must not lose sight of the fact that the best interests of a corporate entity is seldom, if ever, synonymous with the best interest of its employees. Management just doesn't think that way.
Just as the DMEC represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots alone, management negotiators represent management and management alone.
They now have the advantage on Scope issues. It will always be on the table in every Section 6. They will NOT give up anything that is not advantageous to them. They may 'sell' certain elements of Scope if the price paid is to their liking but they will NOT give away anything - unless they have no choice.
Unless thier buisness plan changes to one that does not warrant or include outsourcing (highly improbable), then outsourcing is here to stay - in one form or another.
Mergers of any kind only happen when mangement believes them advantageous to the interests of management. They never happen because pilots think its a good idea.
If you P into the wind you usually get wet - no more.
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