Informational Stapling Compass to Delta Website

[~~~^~~~]

And if DAL furloughs they will all be on street, with or without a staple. If they flow up, they go right to the bottom of list. I think most would rather have recall rights to DAL instead of CPZ

Along those lines, the Alaska pilots might be the ones who should have concerns about this (just joking).

At US Air, pilots who flowed down to MidAtlantic (1998 DOH) were considered furloughed by the arbitrator and stapled behind the most junior America West pilot (2004).

If a Delta pilot gets displaced to an E170, it would be much better if they were considered "Delta" pilots and not Compass pilots. A designation as a Compass pilot would be about as useful as a job at Home Depot during SLI integration.

 

[GOULET!]

As another first year Compass FO who does not get a vote, nor can I attend the meeting on Monday because of my trip trades being rejected more times than I can count, I too have written my reps and have made my voice heard. We are at a very important time to finally make some progress and return the flying to its rightful spot. Please continue to spread the word. This has the potential to be beneficial for everybody involved.

We CAN NOT afford to have our MEC spun off to be represented seperately. This will be a disaster for the Compass pilot group and for the future of the industry.

 

[ROSWELL41]

I hope you guys can get Compass stapled on the list. Another question though: what would stop management from adding more outsourced 76 seat jets once the Compass planes are now considered 'mainline'? Aren't 3 large RJs allowed for every additional mainline plane? How are you guys going to cause those 36 E-175s to not be considered 'mainline growth'? I figure this is what management will want? Are you guys willing to make this tradeoff?

 

[Fly4hire]

Along those lines, the Alaska pilots might be the ones who should have concerns about this (just joking).

At US Air, pilots who flowed down to MidAtlantic (1998 DOH) were considered furloughed by the arbitrator and stapled behind the most junior America West pilot (2004).

If a Delta pilot gets displaced to an E170, it would be much better if they were considered "Delta" pilots and not Compass pilots. A designation as a Compass pilot would be about as useful as a job at Home Depot during SLI integration.

I agree with you, OTOH a seniority number is a seniority number - this was done by the arbitrator. The only way I see to really get around possible pitfall is to have the pilots and the aircraft on the property - or not use an arbitrator. We can call it a a super-duper-not-really-furlough category, but an arbitrator can look at it and say it's still a furlough by any other name.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The only way I see to really get around possible pitfall is to have the pilots and the aircraft on the property.

Exactly. .......

The way I see it, the downside risks to divesting Compass from the Delta MEC are:

• Reduction of Delta pilots negotiating power in the next Section 6
• Creation of an alter ego whipsaw pilot group
• Threats to Section 1
  • Cancellation of the bilateral flow
  • Waiver of the 76 seat fleet reset provision (as a sudden reduction in the flying of other pilot groups likely would trigger ALPA's own protective mechanisms)
  • Expansion of outsourced flying

The upside benefits to supporting a "one list" mentality are:

• More power, as the Delta MEC would represent more of Delta's flying = better contracts
• Improving pay rates, as the 76 seat E170 leaves 12 paying passengers at the gate. There is more revenue to be made in this platform
• A growth airplane in a growth market. Delta can use these to beat Southwest, AirTran, US Air, Air Canada, Virgin and the others.
• Growth for the Delta pilots
• REAL JOB SECURITY for Delta pilots that actually works during a downturn, or corporate merger transaction.
• Outsourcing COSTS money - see below

UPDATE 1-Frontier Airlines gets $40mln DIP commitment

Thu Mar 5, 2009 7:41pm EST
*Republic to provide $40 mln DIP financing to Frontier
*Republic to get damage claim of $150 mln

Those who think getting the E170 back to mainline will be hard need to consider where Republic is going with Delta's money. For one, they are "saving" a competitor, also they are setting up the Indy Air scenario, again

Outsourcing puts money on the balance sheets of Companies who don't like us very much. Last year the DCI carriers reported more than a quarter billion in operating profits. I'd like that in MY profit sharing check, anyone with me?

 

[ROSWELL41]

Exactly. .......

I hope you guys sort out all of the pitfalls. If you guys bring these 36 planes and associated pilots onboard and management outsources 108 more large RJ's as a result...Well you get the idea. Whenever we go to management with our good intentions, it always seems to backfire.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Roswell,

The resolution closes that loophole. If Compass no longer existed, there would be no need for that loophole anyway.

There would have to be minor changes to Section 1 to maintain "status quo."

It is a realistic, small step, to start improving Delta scope. Some are upset that it is not a larger step, but consider, IT IS THE FIRST STEP IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION than the path we have been on since 2001.

The PDF file closes with two excellent quotes that I'm glad they included:

“…our adversaries have developed only one strategy that has ever worked: divide and conquer. They have used it to drive pilot groups to bid against each other, to undermine support for your pilot reps during and after negotiations, and to set pilot groups within a single network against each other in a struggle to fly certain airliners. We must remain eternally vigilant against this strategy. That’s why our union, and the entire labor movement, is renewing the push for unity…. “

Captain Duane Woerth, ALPA President
​

“We are no longer in survival mode, we will spare no effort to aggressively fight. Now, like never before, we are going to work across all segments and corporate brands to restore our proud profession. It is time to take back what all of our pilots gave up, and ALPA is ready to lead that fight.”

Captain John Prater, ALPA President​

This is the action our leadership has directed.

 

[N2264J]

Don't interpret "combine compass" as in any way excluding you, CMR, or any other group.

But that's what this does.

Question: If Delta can realize the savings by combining the Delta and Compass lists, why not get three times the savings and benefits by including Comair and Mesaba? It makes the first paragraph of "The Compass Question" seem silly and insincere while he's trying to set the tone. I understand these flyers are being placed in Vfiles all over the system so we can assume management already has it.

By arbitrarily excluding two of the wholly owns, it showcases a union schism management is sure to exploit.

 

[~~~^~~~]

N2264J,

I agree with your point enthusiastically, but Delta pilots can't make your case for you.

The difference is that the Delta MEC represents the Compass pilots. Delta pilots also have a voice to their MEC.

I have no voice to your MEC and anything that the Delta MEC does has been historically interpreted by the DCI MEC's as hostile and predatory.

Frankly, I'd love it if your MECs got on board! But, Delta pilots have no power to speak for you. You'll need to speak up yourself.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

But that's what this does.

:bawling: :crying: :bawling: :crying:
Try another lawsuit then. After all you were so successful the first time around!

Question: If Delta can realize the savings by combining the Delta and Compass lists, why not get three times the savings and benefits by including Comair and Mesaba?

Answer: Comair is on its way out. As in Buh Bye!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Answer: Comair is on its way out. As in Buh Bye!

I don't think so. Let me explain why.

If you look at the Mesa litigation, Delta settled that issue. Mesa's point in the lawsuit was Delta's cancellations to manage traffic in the Northeast was what caused Mesa to be in breach to begin with. Mesa now refuses to cancel Delta's flights, leaving Delta little operational control over Delta flying.

To regain some control, Delta has to move Comair to JFK so they can cancel flights as they need to. This makes Comair"s numbers look worse< but in reality Comair is the only DCI carrier that Delta can move on short notice.

Delta has itself locked in to all kinds of contracts that it now finds are very difficult to wiggle out of. Delta is pressured to give out new flying awards in exchange for modifications (and that is why 9 CRJ900's were diverted to ASA - aka SkyWest Inc.).

The tail wags the dog in the DCI system. The only place where the Dog is in control is at the wholly owneds. That is why Comair will remain in some form. You can't run the system without an accumulator.

 

[Fly4hire]

But that's what this does.

Question: If Delta can realize the savings by combining the Delta and Compass lists, why not get three times the savings and benefits by including Comair and Mesaba? It makes the first paragraph of "The Compass Question" seem silly and insincere while he's trying to set the tone. I understand these flyers are being placed in Vfiles all over the system so we can assume management already has it.

By arbitrarily excluding two of the wholly owns, it showcases a union schism management is sure to exploit.

Gotta crawl before you can walk......if this morphs into a DCI wide PID issue it's DOA. This about DAL jobs and future job security - if we carry DCI pilots proportional to the seats they bring, Yipee! But it is about DAL mainline jobs first, not creating positions at the mainline for DCI pilots

-1st step - keep CPZ on the MEC

-2nd step - address 76 seat limits - the 36 E175 need to come out of the 255 at a minimum, with all 76'er to eventually to come to the mainline

(This covers other DCI's by it's nature - of course we don't want pilots w.o. the seats - what to do with Saabs and CRJ200's and the jobs they represent?)

-3rd step - and this may take several forms - address the PID issue - CPZ is unique in it position - get them on first if that opportunity arises - the fact that they know it will be a staple and accept that is huge. Makes objections on the DAL MEC fewer and their concurrence on a PID more likely.

Perhaps the possibility that CPZ integrates with XJ and/or CMR, does their own internal integration, then a PID if filed.

The danger in a larger group of other wholly owned DCI's is the more senior pilots at CMR, and to a lesser extent XJ want something more than a bottom of the list seniority number (or an exclusive fence around their seats. Hmmm -we didn't do it for 330, 767, 757, etc., don't think they'll get it on a CRJ900) .

Any, repeat ANY PID that involves other wholly owned DCI's would likely have to come with a pre-packaged seniortiy agreement that placed them, (category ratio, or whatever within their own group) AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST.

ANY resolution that leaves open the eventual possibility of a PID with other DCI's with anything other than joining the bottom of the seniority list leaves the door open for someone to later try a DOH, category, or other than staple seniority integration. It will be DOA. Fact.

That is where RJDC, even if well intentioned initially, went off course.

Let's not repeat that mistake. That door must remain closed and locked.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Meeting dates:

Item eight. Minneapolis Council 1 will meet Monday, March 9 with a Compass Pilot Informational Meeting from 10AM – 11:30AM and the Council meeting from 12:00PM to 2:30PM at the Ramada Mall of America Hotel, 2300 East American Blvd., Bloomington, MN 55425.
Atlanta Council 44 will meet Friday, March 13, 10:30AM – 2PM at the Doubletree Club Hotel, Atlanta Airport, 3400 Norman Berry Drive, Atlanta.
Seattle Council 54 will meet Friday, March 13, 10:00AM, in the Holiday Inn Select (Next to former ALPA field office building) One South Grady Way Renton, Washington. Complimentary shuttle service is provided by calling 425-226-7700.
Salt Lake City Council 81 will meet Thursday, March 19, 10:00 a.m., The Jazz Room, SLC Airport, between Concourses C and D. MEC Chairman Lee Moak will be the guest speaker.
Anchorage Council 55 will meet Tuesday, March 24, 11:00 a.m. in the Labor Union Hall, 2501 Commercial Drive, Anchorage. Delta MEC Chairman, Capt. Moak will be a Guest Speaker.
Memphis Council 74 will meet Monday, March 30, 9AM – 11AM, Boo Ya’s Restaurant, 954 West Poplar, Collierville.
Detroit Council 20 will meet Monday, March 30, 11:00 a.m. – 5:00 p.m. at the Westin Hotel, Lindberg Room, McNamara Terminal. All pilots living or visiting the area of a local meeting regardless of council affiliation, are invited to attend a meeting.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fly 4 Hire is right.

But, to add to his point, ALPA more or less requires Pre-Nuptial agreements. Even NWA and Delta had an agreement on how the SLI was going to be administered (even if they disagreed on the list, they had to agree on the procedure) before ALPA did the PID.

The RJDC looked at the ALPA rule book and figured they had a lock on procedure. The critical error was not addressing the politics. The result was ending up at the Courthouse instead of ending up on an overnight somewhere in the tropics drinking beer and looking at hotties.

Frankly, there is little procedure in the "Combine Compass" push. In my view, we have to run the numbers and convince the political experts here at Delta as a FIRST step. PID's are a long, long, long way away, barely on the visible horizon.

Again, the Delta pilots do not speak for the Comair, or Mesaba pilots. I encourage those pilots to call their Reps and ask them to get on board.

 

[flap operator]

Fins... you make good points. HOWEVER, it's easier said than done by saying in essence 'we don't speak for you, like we do for CPZ, so if you want it... you gotta come and get it' The reason we (XJ, OH etc...) can't come and get it, is because our sole existence is tied to your contract. When we have no control, it's like telling a chained up dog to go run after the bone.

I think the greatest aspiration of a regional pilot is not to work at mainline for the pay, work rules and BJS (big jet syndrome). That's all the bonus stuff. It's to be apart of a pilot group that doesn't exist as language in somebody elses section 1. And as long as that is the reality in a regional pilots career, we will never have the leverage and ability to make anything happen. All we can control is the fight within our own mgmt as we're thrown the scraps from mainline. The control, like it or not, has to come from mainline.

That appears to be what's happening here with CPZ, but a lot of the reasoning is scary, insulting and simply not trustable. I simply don't trust that this is just the first step. If the 76 jets are worthy... then all the DCI seats should be worthy... all the way to the Saab 340. Brand scope is the answer.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Amen.

To echo what the previous two posters have said. Protecting our representational structure is job one. Two is moving forward with the CPZ issues.
As FIN states this could in effect be a step in the correct direction.

Now we need people to show up next Friday. This is a must. If you are off, be there. This depends on your support. I know I will be there.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fins... you make good points. HOWEVER, it's easier said than done by saying in essence 'we don't speak for you, like we do for CPZ, so if you want it... you gotta come and get it' The reason we (XJ, OH etc...) can't come and get it, is because our sole existence is tied to your contract. When we have no control, it's like telling a chained up dog to go run after the bone.

I think the greatest aspiration of a regional pilot is not to work at mainline for the pay, work rules and BJS (big jet syndrome). That's all the bonus stuff. It's to be apart of a pilot group that doesn't exist as language in somebody elses section 1. And as long as that is the reality in a regional pilots career, we will never have the leverage and ability to make anything happen. All we can control is the fight within our own mgmt as we're thrown the scraps from mainline. The control, like it or not, has to come from mainline.

That appears to be what's happening here with CPZ, but a lot of the reasoning is scary, insulting and simply not trustable. I simply don't trust that this is just the first step. If the 76 jets are worthy... then all the DCI seats should be worthy... all the way to the Saab 340. Brand scope is the answer.

Man, read up on the Ford-Cooksey settlement. That in effect will create a lot of headaches. If you understand that, and the procedure in place because of the settlement, you will understand the reasoning behind the thrust of this resolution.

You CRJ-900 is worthy, but before you build a house you need to make sure the foundation can support it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That appears to be what's happening here with CPZ, but a lot of the reasoning is scary, insulting and simply not trustable. I simply don't trust that this is just the first step. If the 76 jets are worthy... then all the DCI seats should be worthy... all the way to the Saab 340. Brand scope is the answer.

Why is it scary? Usually each seniority list has its own MEC. Some say the answer is separate MEC's, others say the answer is one list.

One list is less scary than the alternative of another alter ego to flight with, isn't it? Seems like this effort would make most people sleep better at night.

 

[flap operator]

Does there always have to be a "fight?" Does it really scare DALPA, if Compass had their own MEC? They'd have their own voice to act on things that benefit their pilot group. I'm not taking a position either way with CPZ spinning off into their own MEC... just asking the question. If the did, they'd truly have a voice. It doesn't necessarily have to be an adversarial relationship... look at XJ and NWA.

Airlink/DCI and mainline coexist because of mainline scope. If BOTH sides can work together with everyones and not just a few pilots best interests at hand, we'd actually be a UNION, not an association.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Each MEC looks out for their own first.

It's a union, but that term applies moreso to within each MEC as opposed to between MECs. Changing that actuality is why it will be a fight.

This is why you need to write/call (and implore your pilot group to do the same) if you truly want brand scope. Only when we have the same goals can this on a large scale go forward.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Does there always have to be a "fight?" Does it really scare DALPA, if Compass had their own MEC? They'd have their own voice to act on things that benefit their pilot group. I'm not taking a position either way with CPZ spinning off into their own MEC... just asking the question. If the did, they'd truly have a voice. It doesn't necessarily have to be an adversarial relationship... look at XJ and NWA.

Airlink/DCI and mainline coexist because of mainline scope. If BOTH sides can work together with everyone's and not just a few pilots best interests at hand, we'd actually be a UNION, not an association.

IMHO this has your best interests in mind. These CPZ pilots knew what the organizational structure and opportunities were prior to going there. Most went there for the flow. The large majority of them want to keep the MEC structure the way that it is, I know I have asked many of them .They see the issues and single mindedness of splitting them off. It is not to hard to see that.
To change the minds of many you need to first change one person's mind. That is the goal.
If we do the research and it is better to keep CPZ separate and spin them off then the number will prove it. We just want to make darn for certain before any changes are made.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Each MEC looks out for their own first.

It's a union, but that term applies moreso to within each MEC as opposed to between MECs. Changing that actuality is why it will be a fight.

This is why you need to write/call (and implore your pilot group to do the same) if you truly want brand scope. Only when we have the same goals can this on a large scale go forward.

Also remember that once you start flying for multiple carriers it gets a lot harder to pull you back in.

 

[Fly4hire]

Does there always have to be a "fight?" Does it really scare DALPA, if Compass had their own MEC? They'd have their own voice to act on things that benefit their pilot group. I'm not taking a position either way with CPZ spinning off into their own MEC... just asking the question. If the did, they'd truly have a voice. It doesn't necessarily have to be an adversarial relationship... look at XJ and NWA.

Airlink/DCI and mainline coexist because of mainline scope. If BOTH sides can work together with everyones and not just a few pilots best interests at hand, we'd actually be a UNION, not an association.

Yes, however it is important to understand the nature of CPZ.

This was not a new carrier started to offer jobs to pilots off the street - it was a fallback position taken under extreme duress by the NWA pilots during BK to

PROVIDE JOBS FOR NWA PILOTS IN THE EVENT OF A FURLOUGH - nothing else - the **temporary jobs** created are a side benefit that came with ensuring that job protection for NWA, now DAL pilots.

The reason they are on our MEC, and we wrote their contract was because we fully expected a furlough and our pilots to be working there.

All this talk of CPZ and their rights is specious BS - they have no rights other than to be a place holder for possible DAL furloughs - the bilateral flow was the quid they got for being in this tenuous position, and all accepted employment there knowing the landscape.

Letting CPZ have their own MEC would be analogous to having your house robbed at gun point in exchange for your life, and then saying they have squatters rights to your possessions and you will agree to sit down to negotiate the rights to your property.

Having them cut would be acknowledging they have rights to your property. If the DAL MEC gives this away and compromises the only real furlough protection that exists for DAL pilots it will be the greatest surrender in the history of ALPA.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yes, however it is important to understand the nature of CPZ. This was not a new carrier started to offer jobs to pilots off the street - it was a fallback position taken by the NWA pilots during BK to PROVIDE JOBS FOR NWA PILOTS IN THE EVENT OF A FURLOUGH - nothing else - the temporary jobs created are a side benefit that came with ensuring that job protection for NWA, now DAL pilots.

The reason they are on our MEC, and we wrote their contract was because we fully expected a furlough and out pilots to be working there.

All this talk of CPZ and their rights is specious BS - they have no rights other than to be a place holder for possible DAL furloughs - the bilateral flow was the quid they got for being in this tenuous position, and all accepted employment there knowing the landscape.

Letting CPZ have their own MEC would be analogous to having your house robbed at gun point in exchange for your life, and then saying they have squatters rights to your possessions and you will agree to sit down to negotiate the rights to your property.

Having the DAL MEC cut them lose would be acknowledging they have rights to your property.

Well put. Add to that the possible issues created by an action such as that.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Man, read up on the Ford-Cooksey settlement. That in effect will create a lot of headaches.

Not really. They'll get the memo.
The only headache for them was the $$ lost by hard working DCI pilots who were promised $$millions in settlements by the failed leadership of the rjdc

 

[andyd]

Do we have to go to our own lec meetings or are we allowed to attend one in the city where we live? I'm lax based but live in Sea...

 

[ACL65PILOT]

you can attend but I do not think that you can vote.

 

[FDJ2]

Do we have to go to our own lec meetings or are we allowed to attend one in the city where we live? I'm lax based but live in Sea...

You don't have to be a member of the LEC where you're based. You can call the MEC Secretary and have your LEC changed to one closer to your domicile.

 

[flyboyike]

I think the greatest aspiration of a regional pilot is not to work at mainline for the pay, work rules and BJS (big jet syndrome). That's all the bonus stuff. It's to be apart of a pilot group that doesn't exist as language in somebody elses section 1.

Amen and a half!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well Air France is in DAL's section 1 as I am sure Delta is in theirs.

I know what you are saying though.