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Informational Stapling Compass to Delta Website

hockeypilot44

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If Compass gets stapled, there will be 175's flown at Shuttle America and mainline at the same time. I think all 170's and 175's should be flown at mainline. I don't see how stapling Compass is going to protect scope. All it will do is let the company put more 175's at Shuttle.
 

ACL65PILOT

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IF this happens there is a really good argument for that. One step at a time. (PID et al.)
The true thrust of this is to make sure we do not separate their MEC form ours. If we do that, we will give away options later.
No one wants to open section 6 if they do not need to.
Lets see how this plays out in all of the bases.
It will be presented at the LEC 44 meeting in ATL on the 13th. It is on the agenda.
 

BlueRidger

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If Compass gets stapled, there will be 175's flown at Shuttle America and mainline at the same time. I think all 170's and 175's should be flown at mainline. I don't see how stapling Compass is going to protect scope. All it will do is let the company put more 175's at Shuttle.


Aside from the fact that the number of 76 seaters would be further limited by this resolution, the more important thing is that it stops the upcoming battle over 100 seaters, such as the E195, and how and where they will be flown.

Compass exists strictly as a concession by the DAL-N pilot group. If for anything else, they should get this flying back and not let themselves get whipsawed by their own concession. If Compass is spun off into its own MEC then whats to stop them from getting rid of the flowthrough in the event DAL furloughs and Compass will be out of work for a long time.

If the DALPA garden wants to grow they should add a little Compost.
 

FDJ2

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If Compass gets stapled, there will be 175's flown at Shuttle America and mainline at the same time. I think all 170's and 175's should be flown at mainline. I don't see how stapling Compass is going to protect scope. All it will do is let the company put more 175's at Shuttle.

Two ways I see that Compass is integrated with the mainline.

1. The company merges the two airlines on its own, this opens up the possibility of negotiating a JCBA. Scope issues are dealt with at that time.

2. We negotiate to integrate the two airlines, probably during section 6. Scope issues are dealt with at that time.

#2 will cost a great deal of negotiating capital. How bad do you want it? Can we afford not to? Obviously the first step is to get the issue on the radar screen, next do an analysis of the economic and professional impact. If we go down the route of integration there needs to be strong grass roots support. Pilots respond well to reasoned arguments, they don't respond well to, emotional arguments, threats, name calling, hostage taking and ultimatums. Just look at the RJDC debacle for an example of how not to do it. Bringing the issue up for debate and resolution at the various LECs is the best way to approach this issue. It's cumbersome and it takes time, but it's the best course of action IMO.
 
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FDJ2

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It will be presented at the LEC 44 meeting in ATL on the 13th. It is on the agenda.

I'll be there, and I'll support it.

I'm wondering if those who are bringing forward this resolution have thought of gathering proxies from those who can't make the meeting. If you get 20 supporters, each carrying three proxies you've got 80 votes in favor right from the start. It takes a little bit of networking and a little bit of effort, but it can pay dividends.
 

General Lee

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I think it is a good idea to take a look at it. What we don't want is for the company to sell off the Compass assets at some point, and leave us with 300 or more unemployed pilots to furlough. USAir sold MDA to Republic, and left those guys hanging. We need to think about which planes will eventually replace the DC9s, and we do NOT want to give that flying away. Already having E175s means E190s could be a logical choice due to training costs and familiarity with mx issues, and that could be worked in there. Let's take a look and see what could happen.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

michael707767

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I have mixed feelings on this one. I agree with the idea that once we have mainline pilots flying the 175, it makes the 190/195 a more viable option for Delta (though I think the C-series would be a better aircraft). The problem is, just putting Compass on the mainline list does not take care of the scope problem. We still would not own that flying and I don't think there would be anything preventing the company from sending those airplanes to Republic or someone else. My other fear is that if we staple Compass, the Comair pilots will use this as a springboard to once again try and force their way on to our list, and I want no part of that.
 

ACL65PILOT

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I'll be there, and I'll support it.

I'm wondering if those who are bringing forward this resolution have thought of gathering proxies from those who can't make the meeting. If you get 20 supporters, each carrying three proxies you've got 80 votes in favor right from the start. It takes a little bit of networking and a little bit of effort, but it can pay dividends.

They have and will. We have one out there to do this. Three per present member if my memory serves me correctly.
We are working on it.
As you can see from the draft that was sent to the LEC for a "proof read" We LEC 44 members are not demanding a said result. We are wanting to research and report back. If the MEC has solid evidence to not merge the groups, to spin off the MEC we the members of 44 want to see/hear it.
Personally, I do not want to separate the MEC's and make it that much more difficult to get this going later. Having the same MEC solves problems that we had with the EV and OH groups.
 

ACL65PILOT

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I have mixed feelings on this one. I agree with the idea that once we have mainline pilots flying the 175, it makes the 190/195 a more viable option for Delta (though I think the C-series would be a better aircraft). The problem is, just putting Compass on the mainline list does not take care of the scope problem. We still would not own that flying and I don't think there would be anything preventing the company from sending those airplanes to Republic or someone else. My other fear is that if we staple Compass, the Comair pilots will use this as a springboard to once again try and force their way on to our list, and I want no part of that.

There are a few things that will need to be done for this to occur. If you want a copy of the resolution, go to this web site. There will be more there later this week, and there will be some minor changes to the LOA, but overall it is close to on point.
 

RedRum

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I went to go see Lee Moak speak at the Special MEC Meeting in MSP last month. A Compass pilot approached the microphone and was inquiring about the possibilities of being stapled on the DAL seniority list. LM made it pretty clear to him that he represents DAL pilots and DAL pilots alone. It is specifically addressed in the MEC Leadership Mission Statement.

LM made various references toward this during his appearance. Therefore, I would believe that he would be careful about proceeding forward with this. I think a good point someone made here is that this opens up a giant can of worms and the lawyers are going to have to take a long hard look at how we tack on this one. Who is to say Comair will not ride on the coattails of Compass... ASA? Mesaba?

What I am trying to say is that we need to stop giving up scope, even if it is only a net gain of 100 some odd seats. When most of us started out on this career we knew that the regionals were a springboard. I, personally, am not in the mod to entertain another handout to pilots who knew what they were getting in to when they started at Compass.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe our PWA prohibits DAL from selling Compass and terminating the LOA flowback/flowthrough agreement. I think we would be giving up something we don't need to give up and prematurely opening up our contract to revision.

Your thoughts?
 

SpauldingSmails

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I have some thoughts, and I'll at the MSP LEC meeting on Monday. My question, or statement perhaps is this... "What can we do to make Delta (the corporation) want this?" We can resolve all we want, but let's face it, its still the Delta HR people who control the seniority list. There needs to be a strong business case for this if its to ever get off the ground. I read the "The Compass Question" flyer that landed in the MSP crewroom last week... its a start, but no where near the level of information that would be needed to make a convincing arguement to Delta.

Michael707767 has hit the nail on the head this still does nothing about scope for you guys. Also IF, Compass is appended to Delta, there's really no reason they couldn't move those planes along to some other DCI contractor. Compass is not an exclusive agent of any of the flying or any special service, we could be replaced on a whim by any number of other contract lift providers.

The biggest issue for the Compass pilots at this meeting on Monday is our representation structure, IMHO. We have an FO (Compass) who wants to present a resolution to essentially "decertify" our representation structure and contract. This would be nothing short of a disaster for the Compass pilot group. We have no money, no people, and little expertise... propping up a Compass MEC overnight would be an unmitigated disaster. The current system we have is not perfect, but its at least something for the interim.
 

ACL65PILOT

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I have some thoughts, and I'll at the MSP LEC meeting on Monday. My question, or statement perhaps is this... "What can we do to make Delta (the corporation) want this?" We can resolve all we want, but let's face it, its still the Delta HR people who control the seniority list. There needs to be a strong business case for this if its to ever get off the ground. I read the "The Compass Question" flyer that landed in the MSP crew room last week... its a start, but no where near the level of information that would be needed to make a convincing argument to Delta.

Michael707767 has hit the nail on the head this still does nothing about scope for you guys. Also IF, Compass is appended to Delta, there's really no reason they couldn't move those planes along to some other DCI contractor. Compass is not an exclusive agent of any of the flying or any special service, we could be replaced on a whim by any number of other contract lift providers.

The biggest issue for the Compass pilots at this meeting on Monday is our representation structure, IMHO. We have an FO (Compass) who wants to present a resolution to essentially "decertify" our representation structure and contract. This would be nothing short of a disaster for the Compass pilot group. We have no money, no people, and little expertise... propping up a Compass MEC overnight would be an unmitigated disaster. The current system we have is not perfect, but its at least something for the interim.

I do not necessarily want to get in to it on here, but there are ways to make this happen. It takes time. we need to start somewhere.
FWIW there are cost savings that make this beneficial to the company. Also, there are representational circumstances that make it possible too.
Now if you do what he is suggesting, you just created OH. You get out of ALPA and do a new union, you are really opening up yourselves to getting slapped down hard. Not just by the union, but by the guys that decide where you planes fly, and even if you get to fly them. I strongly urge you not to do that.

Fact is that DAL-S did not full understand the CPZ relationship. I think we do now.
 

FDJ2

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There are a few things that will need to be done for this to occur. If you want a copy of the resolution, go to this web site. There will be more there later this week, and there will be some minor changes to the LOA, but overall it is close to on point.

May I suggest a minor change,

6. Compass Airlines and Delta Air Lines are both represented by the Air Line Pilots Association and share acommon Master Executive Counsel structure, and

Scratch "both are represented by the Airline Pilots Association"

The unique nature of the relationship, which separates Compass from CMR for example, is the flow through arrangement and MEC structure.

IMHO, 6 ought to read:

"6. The pilots of Compass Airlines and the pilots of Delta Air Lines share a common Master Executive Counsel, and"
 

ACL65PILOT

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Yes, one of the FO reps sent a few changes. Also the fact that the pilots cannot direct the MEC but the LEC directs. A little bit a verbiage will be changed.
Thanks for the advice. I am glad to see you on board with this
 

SpauldingSmails

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Now if you do what he is suggesting, you just created OH. You get out of ALPA and do a new union, you are really opening up yourselves to getting slapped down hard. Not just by the union, but by the guys that decide where you planes fly, and even if you get to fly them. I strongly urge you not to do that.

Fact is that DAL-S did not full understand the CPZ relationship. I think we do now.

Like I said, I don't want us to be spun off. Hence my presence and vote will be at the meeting on Monday. There's a very vocal pilot in our group who really seems to be stirring the pot. I think he sees himself as greatest thing to happen to Compass since well... I don't know, not a lot of great things have happened here, anyway I digress. I personally think he sees himself taking the reigns. I could give you some history on this guy, and it would make a lot of sense as to who this person is (and why). But as you said earlier, this isn't the place.

I have to say I've been impressed by the receptive and cordial responses of most of the mainline Delta pilots toward us.
 

ACL65PILOT

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Like I said, I don't want us to be spun off. Hence my presence and vote will be at the meeting on Monday. There's a very vocal pilot in our group who really seems to be stirring the pot. I think he sees himself as greatest thing to happen to Compass since well... I don't know, not a lot of great things have happened here, anyway I digress. I personally think he sees himself taking the reigns. I could give you some history on this guy, and it would make a lot of sense as to who this person is (and why). But as you said earlier, this isn't the place.

I have to say I've been impressed by the receptive and cordial responses of most of the mainline Delta pilots toward us.

We share the same interests. We really do. It is just how to get from there to here. There are many roads and they need to be navigated correctly
We do not want what we had with the PID in the first part of the decade.

You know that, that guy sounds like one of ComAir's favorite brother. Learn from history.
 

JoeMerchant

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We share the same interests. We really do. It is just how to get from there to here. There are many roads and they need to be navigated correctly
We do not want what we had with the PID in the first part of the decade.

You know that, that guy sounds like one of ComAir's favorite brother. Learn from history.

What specifically about the PID did you not like?
 

ACL65PILOT

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What specifically about the PID did you not like?


Joe, simply put, if you take all of the politics out of it et al. I wanted to see more progress than was made with EV, OH and DL. Where things went is not where I wanted them to go. The aftermath and subsequent lawsuits set this profession back a lot. Place blame where you will, but the fact is that it fractured ALPA.

There was damage done. When it became about money, IMHO, the lawsuit and subsequent settlement lost the true thrust at which the whole process what started.

I fear a few people not learning about really transpired and pushing forward are going to repeat the same mistakes that were made. It may sound circumspect, but you know exactly what I am inferring.
 
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